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macabi

Recent BFP Reward Changes are Bad for Daily Players

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, chickennoodler said:

It's a 350 bfp drain daily.

Where you have to play at least an hour for, which is doable for some days, but definitely not all days.

I would suggest that if you play a half hour on tuesday and a half hour the following day you get the discount. I.e. the time you spend playing ingame carries over the next day. Right now the system stimulates playing either at least an hour a day or a bit longer in a couple of days. With the carry-over mechanism, you also hit the market that can spend around 30 minutes a day. 

 

Edited by Zappyx

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Well, I think it does carry over, at least I had that happen to me once. I'm not sure that was because it was within 10 hours or so, but at least it was across 2 days

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It doesn't, it resets every 24h hours.

I have also noticed it is hard for PvP players to get the discount bonus, because playing a match usually is around 5 ~ 10 minutes. There is also the waiting time to get a match going. I might be online searching and playing PvP games for two hours and not get the bonus.

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Only 2 hours :thinking: there was player that was waiting for over 12 hours and then win the match :O so it was not that he forgot to log out :D

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Ideas for the fine tuning of the new BFP-System

 

I. Introduction

 

during the last few days since the new system has been available on the stress test server I started testing it and played for many hours, during this time I talked to players about their opinion. Since I played a lot (only worked 5h a day) I was able to get every daily boost, complete all quests and nearly drain the whole reserve one time. At the beginning I spent all my BFP (bought a 1k bfp booster … but lets talk about this later) and started from 0 to investigate following things:

 

1. am I feeling rewarded (for the time I played)?

2. what can I afford on each day/after all these days?

3. for how much can I sell a Booster that I bought with the daily discount?

 

1. On the first day I played something around 90/120 minutes time spent ingame, but somehow I didn’t feel rewarded at all. It took some time to find matches and after I had obtained the daily boost I did not really want to continue. Since a friend of mine wanted to test the update too I decided to play with him for some time. The reserve drained so slow, after 2/3 games I decided to let it rest for that day. The second day went kind of the same I played because it is a habit of mine and I wanted to gather further information. The third day I decided to play some more and talk to players I met in my games about their opinions. I played for 2 hours (time spent in matches) with friends, and for 1 of them it was his first impression of the update. He told me afterwards he didnt feel rewarded (but he played anyway since we grinded MotM otherwise he would have left earlier). Stretched out over the day I spent about 3 hours ingame with random mates and most of them probably didnt read the discussions in the Forums and just wanted the old System back. Overall I was online for about 7 hours that day and gained around 580 BFP.

 

2. I was able to gather an estimate of 1500 BFP over the course of three days. It was enough to give me my last disenchant charge so I am kind of happy with the result. But only kind of because had this been a normal work week I could have come out with way less.

 

3. you can sell your boosters you buy with the daily boost for 370-390 depends if you find someone who still wants to buy some.

 

Now it is on us to find a way to tune the system so it rewards not so active players, daily casual players and daily hardcore players in a fair way so no one feels badly treated. And I guess PVP players are pretty happy they can play their decks with out a grind when the new changes arrive.

 

Maybe a survey needs to be started on which playstyle was the most common while the “old system” was active:

1. only on weekends

2. 2-3 times a week + weekend

3. daily or at least 6 days for the daily booster and the quests

4. everyday multiple hours

 

II. actual Ideas

I think there is no question that the new faction boosters currently cost far too much to be considered as an alternative to the all-random boosters for most players at all. I think I saw Zyna on discord yesterday proposing the idea of having every booster for 450, that would be a good start. As I think a lower price for these boosters is a good idea I think they shouldnt be on the same level as the all-random booster. Lets take enlightenment as an example: it is needed by many players but there are only a few on the marke; with higher supply of this cards with the faction booster costing a little bit more than the standard booster, lets say 550, it will be available for way more players than it is right now, and will lead to a lower price of the card. Considering, faction boosters grant a higher probability for specific cards, they should definitely cost a certain amount of BFP more, than all-random-boosters. It will still be rare but not as exclusive as it is right now. The decreased availability of highly demanded ultra rare cards can lead to jumps in their price during a few days, and the card can only be found for a lot more than usual. That is kind of confusing for new players who dont really know the prices, atleast it is counteracted by the 2 day auctions.

III. Discrepancy between high and low time-committing players

 

I would like to discuss, whether players who spend a lot of time ingame should be able to receive more rewards/bfp than players who spend less time ingame (~30 min a day), or not.

The goal would be to achieve ‘fair rewards’ for every player, but what is fair? Does it mean, everybody gets the same amount of BFP per day, for a different amount of play time? Does it mean, someone with 6 hours a day should be able to earn respectively more BFP?

In my opinion, the answer to both questions is a clear No.

The goal of the new reward system should be, for low-commitment players to be able to earn a good daily amount of BFP, while still rewarding high-commitment players appropriately, without the discrepancy between them snowballing too much.

In order to avoid a huge discrepancy, one should at least be able to earn an equivalent of a booster, BFP value-wise, throughout ~30-45 minutes of playtime.

So the question is, how can we achieve further rewards for additional playtime a day in a fair way?

Options:

X BFP per minute of playtime

X BFP per successfully completed map (higher/lower depending on the difficulty)

Additional quests after X minutes of playtime (Let’s say an additional quest after every hour of playtime. Possible up to Y times a day. The number Y grows, if no additional quests were unlocked in the last Z days).

In general more quests, which cannot be completed simultaneously

Achievements triggered by a certain amount of successfully completed quests. For example: After 15 completed quests, an additional booster is rewarded. This would reward regular players as well as high commitment players.

 

Damo, Niq and me made up our minds and thought through some approaches. We collected the ideas and listed them, of course we do not want everything to be implemented just like we proposed it, these ideas should be a new foundation for a discussion about the BFP sytem

 

-Set a higher booster discount “150”

-Make the daily boost available after 30/45 minutes this is good for casual players (either daily boost 30 minutes and booster discount 45 minutes or the other way around to make it counteract multi accounting)

-Keep the catch-up mechanic as it is

-Remove the reserve and just put BFP over time. 2 BFP per minute after the daily boost runs out for the first hour and beyond only 1 BFP per minute for the rest of the day this limits the BFP earned and we doubt it is abusable to a game- or economy breaking point)

-(keep the reserve with 120 bfp but drain it with 2 BFP per minute, but additionally every 2 minute of playtime gives you 1 BFP all day long even when the daily boost is not active. The reserve is charged each hour by 20)

-For every completed map you get awarded with an additional 10 bfp for every successfull match that lasted at least 6 minutes to counteract at least a little bit of speedrun farming

-create new and more complex quests and set the quests to 3 instead of 2 the new 1 is the PvE map of the day

-Add a map of the day: PVE campaign map of the day (for all players its the same map) which rewards bonus gold all day (dont know if it can be implemented) and a bonus of 75 BFP when played for the first time of the day (implemented through a quest)

-Adjust the daily boost to give 250 BFP for the next day even if it is not fully drained on the day before. Award only 100 if the amount of the unused daily boost is 250 or above

-Weekly quests which reward a booster, or adjust the achievement for completing quests with a linear increase so you get a booster every 15 quests.

 

-Add daily booster quest back for the first 10-20 days

-Add the old 1 bfp booster back into the game to prevent short pass of commons and uncommons in the first few weeks. Set a really low or no chance for uncommons (reintroduced as 5 bfp booster)

-Change the rarity of some cards that are not used at all (sp there is a higher dropchance in the Boosters for useful cards)

-Add small BFP rewards for fastest time at the end of a month and an EXP reward for the fastest time overall which is given out at the end of the month (BFP for PVP leaderboards)

 

This is a completely different approach to the current system:

 

-Have a Catch-up mechanic as it is now

-3 quests per day

-MotD

-Reward of xxx BFP and Booster discount or booster after 30 minutes of playtime

-Bfp per map depends on difficulty and map (to prevent speedrunfarming the bfp are only given out -2 times per map each day), for Battlegrounds smaller amount of BFP but earnable unlimited times, -BFP are only given out until the maximum of xxx a day is reached.

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I would like to suggest carrying over the time for the next day so we can get the 100 BFP discount if we played 60 minutes over two days or more.

Further more, I would like to suggest allowing us to accumulate the 100 discount.

So if we didn't use the 100 BFP discount after 60 minutes of game play, then the next time we play another 60 minutes we will then have 200 BFP discount and so on up to 3 consecutive discounts.

The reason for that - Boosters don't worth 350 BFP.

In fact, they probably worth only around 200 BFP.

Players who figured that out don't buy boosters and don't even take advantage of the 100 BFP discount.

So, Conservative discounts will allow us to buy boosters for reasonable and fair amount. 

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44 minutes ago, macabi said:

The reason for that - Boosters don't worth 350 BFP.

In fact, they probably worth only around 200 BFP.

Not sure what booster you are talking about, but even for the normal booster this is far from the truth. Based on the value of the cards sold on the marketplace starting this year, the 450BFP standard booster gives you on average 450BFP worth in cards. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Ladadoos said:

Not sure what booster you are talking about, but even for the normal booster this is far from the truth. Based on the value of the cards sold on the marketplace starting this year, the 450BFP standard booster gives you on average 450BFP worth in cards. 

I am talking about the normal 450 BFP booster.

I have played Battlrforge for 4 years and then again Skylords since January almost daily.

I have been buying and selling cards on a daily basis (as well as opening boosters every day) and after some calculations I came to a conclusion that boosters are worth around 200 BFP on average.

You are welcome to calculate it yourself base on your data.

 

Edited by macabi

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Just now, macabi said:

You are welcome to calculate it yourself base on your data.

Which is what I already did. And using the data from the whole player base I have calculated and concluded that a 450BFP booster gives on average 450BFP worth in cards.

DarcReaver likes this

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ladadoos said:

Which is what I already did. And using the data from the whole player base I have calculated and concluded that a 450BFP booster gives on average 450BFP worth in cards.

Is there a way for me to see that data?

From my own experience the return per booster is much lower.

In any case, if a player doesn't want to use his 100 BFP discount, that discount should be carried over for the next time allowing him to get double discount if he didn't use it the first time around.

I think that would be a reasonable request.

Edited by macabi

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You don't actually need data to prove this, it's an economics truth.

The booster price sets the price for cards sold on the market. The value of all the opened cards will be slightly lower than the booster itself on average, but with the upside of making money with raredrops (promos a.e.).

If the booster was priced at 45 bfp, every card would lose 9/10 of its value instantly and you'd still complain booster prices to be too high, bc ond average you got 35 bfp back in cards.

The price of boosters controls the progression of players, aka how fast you can access new cards. The value of boosters will always be bound tp their contents. Every argument against this is wrong. 

VolvoxGlobator and Ladadoos like this

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10 hours ago, macabi said:

Is there a way for me to see that data?

There is not.

54 minutes ago, Mynoduesp said:

You don't actually need data to prove this, it's an economics truth.

The booster price sets the price for cards sold on the market. The value of all the opened cards will be slightly lower than the booster itself on average, but with the upside of making money with raredrops (promos a.e.).

If the booster was priced at 45 bfp, every card would lose 9/10 of its value instantly and you'd still complain booster prices to be too high, bc ond average you got 35 bfp back in cards.

The price of boosters controls the progression of players, aka how fast you can access new cards. The value of boosters will always be bound tp their contents. Every argument against this is wrong. 

The average value is 446.85BFP if we really want to be specific (which is, like you said, slightly lower than the booster price).

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No, boosters with a ristricted cardpool are priced to lower prices of high demand - low supply cards like infect or harvester. I've talked about it in my post about the games economy. Their prices are a result of lower risk due to a limited cardpool. They are absolutely overpriced if you take the average value of cards (which would result in just below 450 bfp boosters), however they are not the baseline of value. They just lower maximum prices of cards. 

1 minute ago, Ladadoos said:

The average value is 446.85BFP if we really want to be specific (which is, like you said, slightly lower than the booster price).

Damn, guess all those economic classes had some truth in them after all. 😜

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5 hours ago, Ladadoos said:

There is not.

The average value is 446.85BFP if we really want to be specific (which is, like you said, slightly lower than the booster price).

In order to calculate the average value per booster you would need to know the average price for each card in the AH.

Do you mind posting that?

Regarding the added value of promos - it's very minimal.

Assuming average promo price of 5000 BFP divided by 200 (1:200 chance) gives us only 25 BFP added value per booster.

 

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57 minutes ago, macabi said:

In order to calculate the average value per booster you would need to know the average price for each card in the AH.

There is something fundamental you seem to not understand (no offense). The expected value you get out of the booster will always be slightly below its value. In other words: all card prices weighted by their respective chance to get them **will** add up to slightly less than the average booster price.

When supply rises, prices drop and the other way, same goes for boosters themself. When supply of cards is low, buying power of bfp is low and booster value rises. The system balances itself pretty well (until we go into long time economy, where pretty much every card is either dirtcheap or expensive as hell. This discrepancy is currently beeing adjusted with specific booster packs to lower its effect). 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mynoduesp said:

There is something fundamental you seem to not understand (no offense). The expected value you get out of the booster will always be slightly below its value. In other words: all card prices weighted by their respective chance to get them **will** add up to slightly less than the average booster price.

When supply rises, prices drop and the other way, same goes for boosters themself. When supply of cards is low, buying power of bfp is low and booster value rises. The system balances itself pretty well (until we go into long time economy, where pretty much every card is either dirtcheap or expensive as hell. This discrepancy is currently beeing adjusted with specific booster packs to lower its effect). 

I understand everything you said very well.

But there are other elements you are missing.

First there is the gambling element, where even when players know the value of boosters is lower they still want to gamble for the chance of getting a promo or high value UR card. 

Usually the value of cards in a booster is low, and then these cards will be sold in the AH at a much lower value than 450 BFP.

Second, most players don't know the real average value of a booster.

So they will buy boosters even when the actual value is lower than 450 BFP.

If there was a posting of the actual value of a booster for the last 30 days and all players had access to it then that would have balanced the market better as you already described.

 

There is another issue with the calculated average booster value.

I would argue that your calculation is inflated because of lack of cards being sold in the AH.

When there are enough cards sold for each individual card, the sale price for that card will be at fair value.

However, often certain cards are not available in the AH and then some players take advantage of that and post that card at inflated price.

I know, because I have done it myself and often it works because the buyer doesn't know the real value of that card.

For example, are all common cards sold at 3 BFP?

I bet not, but that would be the fair value of most of them.

Therefore, all common cards in your spreadsheet have inflated price.

 

Suggestion: Create a new daily quest - "Sell 20 cards in the AH".

Such quest will insure that all common cards are available at the AH at all times.

 

 

Edited by macabi

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, macabi said:

First there is the gambling element

10 hours ago, Mynoduesp said:

The booster price sets the price for cards sold on the market. The value of all the opened cards will be slightly lower than the booster itself on average, but with the upside of making money with raredrops (promos a.e.).

 

1 hour ago, macabi said:

Second, most players don't know the real average value of a booster.

Doesn't matter if they know - until Ladadoos actualy put a pricetag on it even I didn't know. 

1 hour ago, macabi said:

So they will buy boosters even when the actual value is lower than 450 BFP.

No, no, no, no. The value of a basic booster IS 450. The only argument to be made is about a small playerbase and market activity. With that comes pricefixing/scams, market manipulation, flipping and supplygaps (which you mentioned). You cannot mix value with marketmanipulation. You can argue "compared to the playerbase, boosterprices are too high compared to daily rewards which speeds up progression and market activity" but you cant argue "boosters have too little value for their costs" that simply isn't true.

To be constructive here: Your suggestion for a quest to sell on the market is quite nice but also has problems. You're (probably) right, that common cards would get more affordable, because of a supply increase, but what did we learn about boosters? They keep their value which would actualy mean that more rare and high demand cards (which already struggle with affordable prices) would cost more. To be fair, the effect a (random) daily quest like that would be minimal, but would definitly not help if you want fair prices for cards of all rarity/demand.

Edited by Mynoduesp
typo

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