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macabi

PvP Rank Drops too Fast

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Posted (edited)

Boring to have em all the same, also my wikitable remains purposefully,

Secondly the rank is too low anyway. its reduced from 170k xp for most expensive upgrade now down to 5k xp.

At this point u can remove the entire limit, as everybody will have the rank requirements met but not the actual gold to get the upgrade

Edited by LEBOVIN

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I really like that all cards have now the same requirements for all cards. I rarely saw a player, who understood the old system with different ranks for different rarities.

The rank is pretty low, but I think that is intentional

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Posted (edited)

Ofc it is intentional but, you know just aswell that when it is this low, it is not necessary to have the rank restriction at all, cause the player doesn't have the thousands of gold required to actually upgrade the ultra rares, and has no way to get the gold besides playing which automatically puts his level above the rank restriction. Keeping a feature, that after the proposed change, has no practical relevance anymore, is what might be confusing for players.

Edited by LEBOVIN

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So if I understand it correctly this change is to "remove" the exp level restriction for the higher rarity upgrades. 

I'm not an expert about the best ways gathering gold or experience, but in my experience normal pve maps (on expert) are good to get experience and the easiest way to get gold in a short time is by playing rpve. Maybe it's faster to get gold by playing certain normal pve maps on expert as well if you speedrun them, but for me removing the higher experience restriction feels like removing the main purpose to play normal pve maps (other than quests). 

As I said I'm not an expert on the best ways to gain gold/experience, but as a casual player I thought this was the main strategy.

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3 minutes ago, oehoi said:

easiest way to get gold in a short time is by playing rpve

Only beginners play rPvE to get gold :p The easiest way to get gold is to play GoL position 1 & 2 (You basically stay T1 for 10 minutes and get 10k Gold)

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1 hour ago, oehoi said:

So if I understand it correctly this change is to "remove" the exp level restriction for the higher rarity upgrades. 

I'm not an expert about the best ways gathering gold or experience, but in my experience normal pve maps (on expert) are good to get experience and the easiest way to get gold in a short time is by playing rpve. Maybe it's faster to get gold by playing certain normal pve maps on expert as well if you speedrun them, but for me removing the higher experience restriction feels like removing the main purpose to play normal pve maps (other than quests). 

As I said I'm not an expert on the best ways to gain gold/experience, but as a casual player I thought this was the main strategy.

We also don't want to force people to play PvE and wait so long to be able to upgrade U3 cards.

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but isnt this somefing that also was in Old BF? i think its ok that "new" players or player without a Rank can upgrates every card. For me its sounds like somone is Cry about nothing. For me its also like that next time comes a player that think its unfair to not have all cards for PVP or PVE, so u give next all cards to all users, just cause some people want that?

 

AND pls dont get me wrong. Rank is Dropper super fast true. but like RadicalX sayd, half of the drroping rate sould be fair aswell.

 

/wanky

 

ps: just as reminder: it was in MY point of view. 

(i also not like the mission to force me to play PVP as quest, i always loose 25BFP cause i need to reroll them, but for the PVP player it is the same with CPVE or RPVE maps)

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Posted (edited)
On 4/17/2020 at 5:22 PM, wanky said:

but isnt this somefing that also was in Old BF? i think its ok that "new" players or player without a Rank can upgrates every card. For me its sounds like somone is Cry about nothing. For me its also like that next time comes a player that think its unfair to not have all cards for PVP or PVE, so u give next all cards to all users, just cause some people want that?

 

AND pls dont get me wrong. Rank is Dropper super fast true. but like RadicalX sayd, half of the drroping rate sould be fair aswell.

 

/wanky

 

ps: just as reminder: it was in MY point of view. 

(i also not like the mission to force me to play PVP as quest, i always loose 25BFP cause i need to reroll them, but for the PVP player it is the same with CPVE or RPVE maps)

It's true that Battleforge had similar system.

However, it was easy to find Ranked PvP games with Battleforge and therefore easy to arrive to rank 10.

However, with Skylords it is very hard to find PvP Ranked games during the evening hours (US time).

I dropped from PvP level 10 to level 3 and now I have hard time going back to level 10 because I cannot find games on Ranked PvP.

Therefore, this is a big issue.

Edited by macabi
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but still isnt this a issue from Game or how the rank is work. its simple: There are not enough PVP players. Cause they still wait for the wipe, insted of helping the game work, with bug reports and anything eles.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, wanky said:

but still isnt this a issue from Game or how the rank is work. its simple: There are not enough PVP players. Cause they still wait for the wipe, insted of helping the game work, with bug reports and anything eles.

That is NOT the reason players don't play PvP rank.

They don't play it because a few expert players are controlling PvP right now and anyone who tries to play against them gets crashed within a few minute.

In addition to that, the PvP game doesn't count for the "Play 4 games in any mode" because the quest counts only 10+ minute games.

That needs changing too.

That problem of no PvP players can be resolved by changing the "Play 4 PvP games" quest to give a booster reward instead of 75 BFP.

Many players would then play PvP and expert players will not control it any more.

It would also be nice if players can play PvP maps against the AI (computer stomp style) where the AI plays like a human player (building wells and monuments), but that requires a lot of programming work.

Does anyone has the manual for scenario scripting from the Battleforge days?

I used to have it but I lost it.

I would like to take a look at it again.

I don't see a reset (wipe) any time soon.

There are still many unresolved issues left.

Some which were reported months ago like game freezes all of a sudden when you trade or upgrade your cards (happens daily), or PvP games not giving gold rewards.

Edited by macabi

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1 hour ago, macabi said:

That problem of no PvP players can be resolved by changing the "Play 4 PvP games" quest to give a booster reward instead of 75 BFP.

Many players would then play PvP and expert players will not control it any more.

While that seems like a good solution, there's many factors to keep in mind, such as quest balance and other things. Such a change does not necessarily solve the problem, as players will feel forced to complete that quest and possibly queue just to throw and get the reward. The only solution I see is to reduce the actual barrier to entry for PvP for new players, as well as having a healthy influx of new players that are keen to try PvP, so that they would first be matched against each other.

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Posted (edited)

It's true that players will try to play PvP just for the reward and quit as soon as they can.

To counter that, you can set a minimum game play of 5 minute for 1v1, and 7 minutes for 2v2.

Players won't last that long unless they actually play to win.

Regarding quest balance, you can increase the number of PvP games required to satisfy the quest to 6 or 7 (for a booster reward).

The other option (which is probably harder) is NOT to allow players with low ELO to play against players with high ELO.

Simply put a limit to the ELO range a player can play against.

But at the same time there is a need to increase the reward to bring in more players to PvP.

Personally, I think the first solution is better.

Edited by macabi

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3 hours ago, macabi said:

Simply put a limit to the ELO range a player can play against.

:D that would mean that there would be players that can not find an oponent at all :D because there would be no one good enough :P

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3 hours ago, Kubik said:

:D that would mean that there would be players that can not find an oponent at all :D because there would be no one good enough :P

True, but that is already the case in certain hours because there is no one looking for PvP rank games.

Very often I am waiting for a PvP opponent for 10 minutes or more and there is no one to play against.

In any case, that is why I believe the other option is better (giving Booster reward for PvP quests).

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6 hours ago, macabi said:

It's true that players will try to play PvP just for the reward and quit as soon as they can.

To counter that, you can set a minimum game play of 5 minute for 1v1, and 7 minutes for 2v2.

Players won't last that long unless they actually play to win.

That will make it even worse, players who just want the reward will just turtle themselves in with towers until they reached the time for the quest. Or they just keep running with one swift unit.

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13 minutes ago, MephistoRoss said:

That will make it even worse, players who just want the reward will just turtle themselves in with towers until they reached the time for the quest. Or they just keep running with one swift unit.

I don't think that is possible.

Without additional power wells and at least another monument players won't last 3 minutes.

You are welcome to experiment with that.

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Funny how this post was about pvp rank dropping to fast and instead of fixing that, it ended up implementing lowered upgrade level requirements for pve,  probably the not yet implemented change with highest pvp level instead of current would have been enough 🤷‍♂️

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4 minutes ago, macabi said:

I don't think that is possible.

Without additional power wells and at least another monument players won't last 3 minutes.

You are welcome to experiment with that.

It takes 3minutes and 20 seconds up until an extra power well grants you the power, you have to invest into it. You are on a power deficit up until that point. Early T2s grant a 25% difference in void, which requires you to make much more efficient trades in order to even get some kind of a lead. It is impossible to crash mortar defenses pre T2, dependend on your deck you might even need T3 on maps like lajesh or Elyon. Based on my experience it can take 10 to 20 minutes for an average player to crash a decently executed turtle strategy.

Considering that most PvP games are decided before 5 minutes due to skill gaps between alot of playergroups, it would be bad to force people for 5 minutes into ranked games.

I agree with Lebovin, that the upgrade issue will be solved with the upcoming changes. That said, I still think 30 games per month are too many and make the ranked ladder less representative and reaching activity requirements can get really painful after dropping to 0%. 

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15 hours ago, macabi said:

That is NOT the reason players don't play PvP rank.

They don't play it because a few expert players are controlling PvP right now and anyone who tries to play against them gets crashed within a few minute.

 

There where players that wait for the wipe. Similar Strong to RadicalX or other Pro PVP players. some weeks ago in a conversation in discord some devs told us that over 200-500 pvp players just wait für the wipe because that dont want to grind 2 times theyr own deck.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/20/2020 at 5:44 AM, RadicalX said:

It takes 3minutes and 20 seconds up until an extra power well grants you the power, you have to invest into it. You are on a power deficit up until that point. Early T2s grant a 25% difference in void, which requires you to make much more efficient trades in order to even get some kind of a lead. It is impossible to crash mortar defenses pre T2, dependend on your deck you might even need T3 on maps like lajesh or Elyon. Based on my experience it can take 10 to 20 minutes for an average player to crash a decently executed turtle strategy.

Considering that most PvP games are decided before 5 minutes due to skill gaps between alot of playergroups, it would be bad to force people for 5 minutes into ranked games.

Right now the "Play any game type" quest requires 10 minute of game time to qualify, so my 5 minute proposal is an improvement.

Most 1v1 PvP games are over in less than 10 minutes and they do not qualify for current quest.

IMO, that should be fixed for PvP games by lowering the requirement to 4 or 5 minutes.

It's true we have a large skill gap in PvP, but that is mainly because very few players play PvP.

If we introduce a quest with a booster reward for PvP, then that will encourage many more players to play PvP and the skill gap will go down.

On 4/20/2020 at 11:10 AM, wanky said:

There where players that wait for the wipe. Similar Strong to RadicalX or other Pro PVP players. some weeks ago in a conversation in discord some devs told us that over 200-500 pvp players just wait für the wipe because that dont want to grind 2 times theyr own deck.

I don't see a "reset" (wipe) happening any time soon with all the current issues we are having.

Edited by macabi

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On 4/20/2020 at 11:44 AM, RadicalX said:

That said, I still think 30 games per month are too many and make the ranked ladder less representative and reaching activity requirements can get really painful after dropping to 0%.  

@RadicalXWhat would you recommend as balanced value? I mean, right now the PvP rank is often close to meaningless. You can get even rank 1 in the rankings sometimes, without being a Top 10 Player.

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On 4/20/2020 at 11:04 AM, LEBOVIN said:

Funny how this post was about pvp rank dropping to fast and instead of fixing that, it ended up implementing lowered upgrade level requirements for pve,  probably the not yet implemented change with highest pvp level instead of current would have been enough 🤷‍♂️

It seems that way but in fact upgrade requirement was already in discussion before this thread :) 

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On 4/23/2020 at 12:09 PM, Halis said:

@RadicalXWhat would you recommend as balanced value? I mean, right now the PvP rank is often close to meaningless. You can get even rank 1 in the rankings sometimes, without being a Top 10 Player.

I initially recommended 20 games, after talking to some people in the PvP community I think 15 games per month might be even better. The activity check just should ensure, that people are still playing ranked PvP so you can't sit back after reaching a high rank without playing anymore. In fact it should make ranked PvP competitive and keep players active, but right know it does quite the opposite. Base elo is the more relevant stat to evaluate a players skill (it doesn't reflect it perfectly ofc, but is still much more important than activity) and right now the ladder doesn't do this.  

For example Draken, Bubbalo and Navarr & Hightech are players, that should be listed quite high in the ladder based on their true base elo score. All of them are quite active players and they played some ranked games during the last month (23, 14 ,15, 21). They still aren't part of the top 20 due to the high barrier (R28, R56, R57, R49). With a 15 game requirement they would be rated completely differently (R6, R5, R4, R10). When I look at the ranked PvP ladder I want to see things like "who are the best players in the game?". Right now the ladder doesn't really give me that information. It is okay to exclude completely inactive players, but I still want to be able to compare the people, that are actually playing the game.

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