Card Balancing and the Future of the Game

[Darian DelFord]

Ok I have been around BF since early Beta... and by that I mean 2008.  Love the game, love what its about and I hate Phenom for not doing more of a marketing campaign in the US  ( And Root Network Nerf! ). 

With that said.....

WTH are we waiting on in regards to implementing changes to some of the cards.  Those of us who have been around know damn well that SOMETHING needs to be done to cards.  This project has been going on what 4 or 5 years now and how many have been changed?

I am sorry but I have a problem with this.  The community has come up with several ideas which honestly are GREAT.  Why are they not slowly being implemented.  One of the things that hurt this game is there were cards that flat out needed to be NERFED and many that needed to be buffed.  Having worked on a project I know that most of the changes are simple edits to the scripts that change the cards as well as an edit to the card itself if it is not an auto update based on the script.

We are in Open Stress.... and have been....... for a long..... long ....... time now.  We need to start pushing changes to cards forward and get it done before we go live whenever the hell that will be.   I have seen the posts about a single person holding up card balance.  I do not know how true it is.  But we need to start implementing it.  Imagine just how many we could have done in 4 years. ....... And had time to get it right!

Edited March 27, 2020 by Darian DelFord

[Kubik]

hi,

"most of the changes are simple edits to the scripts" what scripts? why you think we have these scripts?

I was told my cites of MrXLink make him see worse than he actually is, so I list his last forum post about it without any cites why not:

and now something more interesting, what can be done:

 

:O all the twich videos are deleted so I can not show ravenheart spawning a fleet

[fiki574]

2 hours ago, Darian DelFord said:

Having worked on a project I know that most of the changes are simple edits to the scripts that change the cards as well as an edit to the card itself if it is not an auto update based on the script.

Can't recall this.

And no, it's not just scripts, some "configuration" files from CFF archives in PAKs are needed to be changed. Just because you see a client-side effect of the change you made, doesn't mean the other player will see it without same appropriate file edit/update.

[Darian DelFord]

My point is the project has been going since late 2015.  We are currently in Open Stress.  We have players who are active in PvE, PvP needs a bit of population bump.  Unless ya'll plan on creating 2 card databases 1 for PvE and 1 for PvP  (Honestly the only way to balance without breaking both), now is the time to try to at least get a few of the "Problem" Cards addressed.  Get some done now and when live hits we can do more.  The notion to wait to launch as the game was is IMHO ridiculous.  We all know how it was and how it is.  We do not need a history lesson.  Lets try to address some of the card issues now while we have time to play and actually test before it gets to live. 

I am honestly trying to think of a reasonable reason why we are not at least doing some cards.  We know what the problems are..... Lets address them.  From my stand point the game appears to be reasonably stable, there are a few issues that pop up, but I am sure they are being addressed. 

 

So what is the reason we are waiting?

[Eirias]

4 hours ago, Darian DelFord said:

So what is the reason we are waiting?

There is a discord where balancing changes were being discussed. Not sure how to invite you though. However, MrXLink has stated that for nostalgic reasons, he wants to full release of the game to have the same balance as when the game died. 

A few months after full release, balances can happen.

Personally I don't see why we can't start making pvp balance changes now and then reset things once full release is ready, but I understand that reasoning for nostalgia.

[Kubik]

you can simply create invite link like: https://discord.gg/GZKKMqH

[Darian DelFord]

28 minutes ago, Eirias said:

There is a discord where balancing changes were being discussed. Not sure how to invite you though. However, MrXLink has stated that for nostalgic reasons, he wants to full release of the game to have the same balance as when the game died. 

A few months after full release, balances can happen.

Personally I don't see why we can't start making pvp balance changes now and then reset things once full release is ready, but I understand that reasoning for nostalgia.

I hae been to the Discord Server some decent ideas there.  Granted I can not type or contribute but I can see it.

Correct me if i am wrong but we are currently in Open Stress which means pretty much anyone can log in and get "nostalgic"  This project has been ongoing for 4.5 years.  It is all volunteer and it does take time to relaunch old games.  However the "Nostalgia" is wearing thin for some of us.  I just do not see a logical reason to be holding back the implementations any longer.  The game needs to feel like its moving forward more so than it is.  Now I have no idea what the time table is which I understand.  However how long is gameplay going to stay.  Roll a few card changes out.... see how it works out.  There will be issues.  Much rather iron those out now than when the game is live. 

 

Point being, we have a decent amount of players now that it is extremely feasible to do this.  Nostalgia be damned, I have been playing, like most, since 2008. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Darian DelFord

[Darian DelFord]

On 3/27/2020 at 9:08 AM, Kubik said:

I point to last place where MrXLink was last saying NO to this on forum, if you manage to reach him, he will send you some waals of text, that have suprisingly high success rate of convincing people that his decision is the right one, whatever the decion was.

 

 

Meanwhile the Same Bugs, the Same Exploits... The Same, Phase Tower Spam, The Same Mortar Tower Spam, The Same Razorshard Spam, The Same Deep One Spam, The Same Tree Spirits Spam.... the list goes on and on.......continue to PLAGUE PvP.  While we wait over 4 years for "Nostalgia"  I am sorry I do not get this.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Darian DelFord

[Esceeli]

Guys to be Honest , you dont have to choose: Nostalgia (pure version) or New content

I see people commenting on Nerfing Amii monument - You could make a secondary ranking system for players using "Banned Cards" just like lots of TCG does.
In this case People prefering the original version can still play the original version use all the cards they like .
While the benefit from new content could be huge for people who just love the World of Nyn and new combinations of cards and creative use of them.

New cards are actually very needed, The community dies off. Thats really bad for the game and the future of us. Some of the Community made maps are reallllyy good but there is no rewards for doing them. This is a drawback that sometimes holds me from doing them. We could make some of them to be official storyline of the campaign

Lots of cards need balancing, buffing and nerfing alike.
think about Wildfire spam, Jugg & Spitfire power cost/stats compared to coredredge (:D) , Using amiii monu on some maps make them childplay, LSS spam kills any map with ease, Some Bandit cards are very weak/useless, Ravenheart and battleship are slow and weak which makes them unusable, I bet you know of this problems.

Even with all the changes to this the game will stay prette Pure Nostalgia. Players can choose by themselves not to include the new cards or play the new maps. And still play on the old ranking system to beat speedruns like in the good old days. While there is also content for the other group.

Just an idea, consider it

Esceeli

[Kubik]

none of these are technicall issues, maybe you seen Ravenhear having ability to spawn corsairs or image of Rogan's Revenge on the map.

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

On 3/27/2020 at 7:18 PM, Darian DelFord said:

I hae been to the Discord Server some decent ideas there.  Granted I can not type or contribute but I can see it.

Correct me if i am wrong but we are currently in Open Stress which means pretty much anyone can log in and get "nostalgic"  This project has been ongoing for 4.5 years.  It is all volunteer and it does take time to relaunch old games.  However the "Nostalgia" is wearing thin for some of us.  I just do not see a logical reason to be holding back the implementations any longer.  The game needs to feel like its moving forward more so than it is.  Now I have no idea what the time table is which I understand.  However how long is gameplay going to stay.  Roll a few card changes out.... see how it works out.  There will be issues.  Much rather iron those out now than when the game is live. 

Point being, we have a decent amount of players now that it is extremely feasible to do this.  Nostalgia be damned, I have been playing, like most, since 2008. 

On top of this I don't think anybody who hasn't been playing in recent years doesn't even know the card stats anymore.

And what is worse, we are losing valuable players. I have seen this with so many other games... the moment a game becomes public its lifecycle begins. And the game in its current state is not sustainable. The playable cards are the game's greatest assets but 80% of the cards are utterly useless because of bad internal and external balancing.

I mean, do the devs seriously think that people feel "nostalgic" when they run into the same bugs that persisted since the game launched? I get why you the devs are intimmidated by starting the balancing process, but at the very least they can start fixing bugs.It doesn't seem like many people even care anymore. When the project and the open beta launched we had some vivid talks on the forum and it has almost completely vanished. We could have used that momentum to keep the game going.

I don't see what the devs are waiting for. The new BFP earning system? For how long have we been waiting for that? Sigh...

Edit: People have been playing Battleforge for years now and I don't think the reset will provide a big influx of players.

For all intends and purposes, the game seems "released" to the public. And if there is nothing new after the reset I don't see why the current players should come back. The nostalgia is spent and I don't want to participate in the same old grinding again.

Edited May 15, 2020 by ImaginaryNumb3r

[Kubik]

Why you think dev decided that?

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

10 minutes ago, Kubik said:

Why you think dev decided that?

Fair enough, it was made clear earlier that this decision was made by MrXLink. I am really concerned for the game and got passionate near the end.

Yes, I'm sorry for that statement. Clearly not everybody shares this same opinion in the team.

On 3/27/2020 at 6:50 PM, Eirias said:

There is a discord where balancing changes were being discussed. Not sure how to invite you though. However, MrXLink has stated that for nostalgic reasons, he wants to full release of the game to have the same balance as when the game died. 

A few months after full release, balances can happen.

Personally I don't see why we can't start making pvp balance changes now and then reset things once full release is ready, but I understand that reasoning for nostalgia.

The huge problem is that balancing is an incremental and iterative process. Many cards have a straight forward fix. Balancing some cards causes a ripple effect that ends up taking extra time. And some factions such as Nature T1 need a full blown rework.

Changing the numbers is fast but Balancing involves playtesting and testing out a new meta. This is the true time sink and you won't see any meaningful results early on. And with a game the scale of Battleforge you really need all the headstart that you can get. I see why you wouldn't tackle a big undertakging such as rebalancing Nature T1 since this can _potentially_ with the expectation of players.

But everybody wants better internal balancing so making a decks is more fun. Especially in pve there is only little you can do wrong and there are plenty of cards that simply need a points reduction.

Now, I don't claim to be an educated expert but I've been working on RTS balance for years so I know the difficulties that happen when you get your hands on balance.

[Timestopper]

On 5/15/2020 at 2:34 PM, ImaginaryNumb3r said:

Edit: People have been playing Battleforge for years now and I don't think the reset will provide a big influx of players. 

Oh it absolutely will. I have been lurking on the forum for several years now, checking each month waiting for a reset. I see no reason to keep playing until the final reset has gone through as playing more than I've already done would be wasted time.

From my activity on the SkylordsReborn subreddit I see this feeling shared very strongly in the community.

[Ponni]

2 hours ago, Timestopper said:

Oh it absolutely will. I have been lurking on the forum for several years now, checking each month waiting for a reset. I see no reason to keep playing until the final reset has gone through as playing more than I've already done would be wasted time.

From my activity on the SkylordsReborn subreddit I see this feeling shared very strongly in the community.

I don't really understand this, what are people waiting for, part from the reset itself? One obvious reason with this is of course that after reset all begins from scratch and it isn't that fun to grind and play maps with "crappy" cards again. But what other reasons are there?

Nah, to me, game is available now, why wait when you can play it? Feels like the waiting is more important than playing for some?

// Ponni

[Timestopper]

Where is the value in playing a collectible card game if your collection will be wiped before you are able to actually assemble and test decks - that would just be a massive waste of time. Especially given that 70+% of the community already have more or less complete collections due to a long time running and periods with massive BFP boosts/free packages.

On 5/16/2020 at 5:23 PM, Ponni said:

One obvious reason with this is of course that after reset all begins from scratch and it isn't that fun to grind and play maps with "crappy" cards again. But what other reasons are there?

Wouldn't that be more than enough reason? - I don't have 15+ hours a week to throw out the window only for me to have to do it again soon(-ish...).

[DarcReaver]

1 hour ago, Timestopper said:

Where is the value in playing a collectible card game if your collection will be wiped before you are able to actually assemble and test decks - that would just be a massive waste of time. Especially given that 70+% of the community already have more or less complete collections due to a long time running and periods with massive BFP boosts/free packages.

Wouldn't that be more than enough reason? - I don't have 15+ hours a week to throw out the window only for me to have to do it again soon(-ish...).

Statements like this are coming almost exclusively from people who want to shove their weight around. There are dozens of games that have ladders for multiplayer matching and are wiped every now and then. Yet people still play these games, even if they have to re-invest up to hundreds of hours. 

The game requires a steady time of like 4-5 hours per week to receive boosters and manage to play a mission or two, or a couple of pvp matches. It's literally not much more than playing CS GO at this point.

Considering this fact it's likely you won't start playing even after a wipe either. Just like all the tards from reddit who are talking about the "glorious days back then". They just talk about the game but won't play it anyways.

Edited May 20, 2020 by DarcReaver

[Ponni]

3 hours ago, Timestopper said:

Where is the value in playing a collectible card game if your collection will be wiped before you are able to actually assemble and test decks - that would just be a massive waste of time. Especially given that 70+% of the community already have more or less complete collections due to a long time running and periods with massive BFP boosts/free packages.

Wouldn't that be more than enough reason? - I don't have 15+ hours a week to throw out the window only for me to have to do it again soon(-ish...).

Well, if the card collecting is the most important part of this game (I argue it is not, this is a RTS game first and foremost) why don't you take the opportunity to do it now and then once again after the reset. Twice the fun, right? 

// Ponni

Btw, I have been playing again since fall of 2018 (no reset in sight...) and having had a lot of fun since!

Edited May 20, 2020 by Ponni
slight addition...

[Timestopper]

On 5/20/2020 at 11:05 AM, DarcReaver said:

Statements like this are coming almost exclusively from people who want to shove their weight around. There are dozens of games that have ladders for multiplayer matching and are wiped every now and then. Yet people still play these games, even if they have to re-invest up to hundreds of hours. 

The game requires a steady time of like 4-5 hours per week to receive boosters and manage to play a mission or two, or a couple of pvp matches. It's literally not much more than playing CS GO at this point.

Considering this fact it's likely you won't start playing even after a wipe either. Just like all the tards from reddit who are talking about the "glorious days back then". They just talk about the game but won't play it anyways.

What is this, a mud fighting competition for small children?

To put it into perspective you might more easily relate to then. From my point of view its like having painting as a hobby, you like doing it but would like to appreciate the result it brings. Ergo, there seems to be little incentive in dedicating several days of work on a piece if you know your niece will come by soon and use it to start the grill.

[Ponni]

23 hours ago, Timestopper said:

What is this, a mud fighting competition for small children?

To put it into perspective you might more easily relate to then. From my point of view its like having painting as a hobby, you like doing it but would like to appreciate the result it brings. Ergo, there seems to be little incentive in dedicating several days of work on a piece if you know your niece will come by soon and use it to start the grill.

If I had a niece like that I would not let her into my house...

Anyways, instead of not doing something you like/love because of external circumstances is to me like giving up. Perhaps that niece won't come and visit for like 3 years, then you have spent a long time just doing nothing (read something else). With this example applied on this game I fear you are missing out. For example, since I started again pretty much all all time records on most PvE maps have been broken, and still I see new records from time to time. 

So, we miss you in game and I urge you to reconsider your decision, because I think you also think it must be more fun to do then not to do. 

// Ponni

Edited May 22, 2020 by Ponni

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

On 5/16/2020 at 2:46 PM, Timestopper said:

Oh it absolutely will. I have been lurking on the forum for several years now, checking each month waiting for a reset. I see no reason to keep playing until the final reset has gone through as playing more than I've already done would be wasted time.

From my activity on the SkylordsReborn subreddit I see this feeling shared very strongly in the community.

I absolutely believe you. But how many people like you are there? Certainly not all of the current players. 

And for most people, this will be the third time they need to start over from zero. Can't say that sounds like a recipe for fun. And ultimately, there is no new experience to be had.

By now, most people already had their fair share of nostalgia, there is little more to be gained from now on. And all of this only takes the veteran players into account. If the game wants to be a success, it needs to attract more players. Really, you need to keep new players as much as possible.

*Start Rant*

This can only be addressed with careful game design that should have been addressed years ago. Card Balancing is one obvious major factor, but achievements and unique rewards for trying out new and weird things also factors into this. But all I can see is a painfully slow process on a questionable re-work of the BFP income.

For those reasons, I fear the worst for the longevity of the game.

*End Rant*

Edit: Just today I decided to log on again... and nobody was hosting even a single game. It doesn't feel like there are many people left that feel in charge and do their best for the future of the game. *Sigh* And now with Kubik gone, I just don't know man... I try to stay positive, but I can't help but feel a little naive for that.

Edited May 22, 2020 by ImaginaryNumb3r

[Timestopper]

On 5/22/2020 at 8:48 PM, ImaginaryNumb3r said:

It doesn't feel like there are many people left that feel in charge and do their best for the future of the game.

A developer commented on this but it seems the comment has been taken down. However, I completely agreed with the statement - I don't think it is fair for us as bystanders to criticize people who've poured their heart and soul into a project for years without expecting anything in return.

They have done an amazing job reviving this game and even though I strongly disagree with some of the things they do ('nostalgia before balance' and the heavily delayed launch when we don't exploit this window of opportunity for major game changes) I still think they deserve all the support and praise we can possibly give (through patreon or otherwise)

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

On 5/24/2020 at 1:29 PM, Timestopper said:

A developer commented on this but it seems the comment has been taken down. However, I completely agreed with the statement - I don't think it is fair for us as bystanders to criticize people who've poured their heart and soul into a project for years without expecting anything in return.

They have done an amazing job reviving this game and even though I strongly disagree with some of the things they do ('nostalgia before balance' and the heavily delayed launch when we don't exploit this window of opportunity for major game changes) I still think they deserve all the support and praise we can possibly give (through patreon or otherwise)

You are completely right. It was in the heat of the moment and I got carried away...

I sincerely apologize to the people who are still doing all the maintenance, bugfixing and all other aspects that we don't notice from the outside. And it seems like there is actually some progress in making balancing changes for the better.

Thank you @Devs