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ktoeto

Is a hard reset really needed?

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I would like to add up an opinion.

An introduction

I am a person, who started playing Battleforge at about a year before it closed. I was almost free to play player, who didn't invest much into the game, so I never had the best cards.

I enjoyed the game very much: trying to collect new cards, playing the maps with cards I could have. I managed to build a solid PvE nature deck with some rares and ultra rares, later added some other orbs, mixing best I had.

The problem

Someone in this topic said, that this game is no more card collecting game, but a pure strategy game. Answering to that, I would like to ask you: don't delete the card collecting aspect of the game (like at the start of the game getting all the cards or via BFP rewards collecting all the cards in a month or two). It is tempting to be able to play all the strongest cards ASAP, getting the perfect decks for all cases. But was it really how this game worked originally?

P.S. I was very happy when I found out someone is working on this project. I joined the Open Stress Test, but because of crashes after every game I decided to wait for the release. So I am sorry for no contribution for the testing.

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6 hours ago, Kubik said:

@Kybaka have you considered we would need to disallow these two groups of players to play with each other? Because on 4p maps you can easily play with only 3 players, so 3 players with all cards would be otherwise able to grant no effort win to player that chose start from scratch.

Can you elaborate a bit on why you would need to dissallow, these right now imaginary, players to play with each other? I dont really understand...would there be technical limitations? To my knowledge there are already features in game to determine whether upgrades are to be distributed or not, eg. if one player got the upgrade transfer it to next...or something like that.

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not technical limitation, but imagine someone claiming he already defeated all maps on Hard difficulty, but the reality would be that he get carried trough these maps by someone who chose to have all cards upgraded from the beginning.

Someone would need 2 hours to complete quest, and someone only few minutes thanks to friend with all cards upgraded, so it would allso affect :bf: gains if these two groups could play together.

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2 minutes ago, Kubik said:

not technical limitation, but imagine someone claiming he already defeated all maps on Hard difficulty, but the reality would be that he get carried trough these maps by someone who chose to have all cards upgraded from the beginning.

Someone would need 2 hours to complete quest, and someone only few minutes thanks to friend with all cards upgraded, so it would allso affect :bf: gains if these two groups could play together.

Ok, thanks, then I understand and I agree with Kybaka, that is, at least to some extent, already happening today. 

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12 minutes ago, Kubik said:

not technical limitation, but imagine someone claiming he already defeated all maps on Hard difficulty, but the reality would be that he get carried trough these maps by someone who chose to have all cards upgraded from the beginning.

Someone would need 2 hours to complete quest, and someone only few minutes thanks to friend with all cards upgraded, so it would allso affect :bf: gains if these two groups could play together. 

We agree that it takes more than a few minutes to complete all the maps.
In addition, what does it feel like to have completed all the maps?

    No more bfp .. no more experience than someone playing the same map all the time.

    Card upgrades .. Personally, I buy them with gold and exp

In addition, if a friend starts playing now .. I can already help him do all the hard maps. If you want to block this .. You must block access to the map before a certain level exp. A bit like the updates card.

Edited by Kybaka

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How it could be happening right now? We do not have two groups of players like that right now.

Well maybe for you it is not few minutes to complete maps, but look at leaderboards tables... (some maps can be done in few minutes)

Well right now there are no achievements bound to completing all maps, but they are planned, so if 1 group of players will not have them, and the other group will have these achievements then players with help will have significant boost over players without the help to finish these maps on higher difficulties. And these players will be easily able to controll market thanks to their much bigger BFP and cards stocks.

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9 minutes ago, Kubik said:

How it could be happening right now? We do not have two groups of players like that right now.

I've been playing since the start of beta. I have more cards than I need. If a friend starts playing today .. I can transfer bfp and cards to him ... in addition to helping him complete all the maps.

 

As mentioned before, I only play to be at the top of the rankings in RPVE. Find the good tactics and beat @Treim :P

I'm not interested in collecting cards. I'm not the only one who thinks that!

Edited by Kybaka

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2 minutes ago, Kubik said:

How it could be happening right now? We do not have two groups of players like that right now.

Well maybe for you it is not few minutes to complete maps, but look at leaderboards tables... (some maps can be done in few minutes)

Well right now there are no achievements bound to completing all maps, but they are planned, so if 1 group of players will not have them, and the other group will have these achievements then players with help will have significant boost over players without the help to finish these maps on higher difficulties. And these players will be easily able to controll market thanks to their much bigger BFP and cards stocks.

So you mean that everyone completing Bad Harvest in 3 mins have all cards (and knowledge) required to do it? 

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frankly if prompted to decide

have all or nothing

Most will already go for the have everything but the real decision will be 

have all or have nothing while everybody else has everything

And the fact that I miss out and others have more than me will certainly convince almost all that previously still imagined choosing nothing

Edited by LEBOVIN

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10 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

frankly if prompted to decide

have all or nothing

Most will already go for the have everything but the real decision will be 

have all or have nothing while everybody else has everything

And the fact that I miss out and others have more than me will certainly convince almost all that previously still imagined choosing nothing 

If the majority chooses to start with all the cards .. it is that the card collection does not interest them

Maybe you have all the cards .. but the fact remains that you won't be any better.

Your lvl exp will be 0 like all the others.

Tagged (color) as having started with all cards.


In addition, several features of the game will be disabled (Markerplace, Tradings ...)

Edited by Kybaka

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well in test server ur lvl 1 aswell and have all cards upgraded, so that is not a technical limitation, I would say either start with nothing to progress through anymore or everything remaining

Edited by LEBOVIN

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On 1/25/2020 at 7:25 PM, MenTos said:

The problem

Someone in this topic said, that this game is no more card collecting game, but a pure strategy game. Answering to that, I would like to ask you: don't delete the card collecting aspect of the game (like at the start of the game getting all the cards or via BFP rewards collecting all the cards in a month or two). It is tempting to be able to play all the strongest cards ASAP, getting the perfect decks for all cases. But was it really how this game worked originally?

P.S. I was very happy when I found out someone is working on this project. I joined the Open Stress Test, but because of crashes after every game I decided to wait for the release. So I am sorry for no contribution for the testing.

I was very happy too when I saw the game was brought back and I also need to apologize for not participating much in the testing efforts. Then, one of the strongest reasons why I tested the game to start with (soon upon its release many many years ago…) was indeed the card collecting aspect of things. Having played Magic: the Gathering and other card games this game was heaven. But, over the years reason why I play this game has shifted, now when having all cards (and I mean all cards, part from some promos perhaps, let me know if you need any I can probably help out…;)) main reasons are to find a deck build which is the strongest for the problem at hand or to generalize a deck setup so it can work in many different situations or to build the fastest possible one, etc.

So, for me the game does not really start until you have all cards (or at least those I have listed earlier...) and then you are able to start challenging the game (and opponents) for real.

Probably then I should start reporting bugs and stuff I encounter, but honestly my experience so far is good, there are of course a few things happening most sessions in game (which was also the case back in the days...), but I am just happy game is back! 

Edited by Ponni

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On 1/21/2020 at 12:40 AM, ktoeto said:

@DionThank you for your long post and point of view on the situation, however I feel like you miss a lot of points or maybe even rather just ignore them to prove your point.

We're in a test phase you say right? I wonder how testing is done other than playing, because you clearly are not.

 

right here is where i couldn't go any further or even bother, maybe ill leave this here,  since i think im gonna repeat my self anyway

 

1. no enough logs been sent, you can play the f**** out of this game and send 0 log you can test this game by playing it and send log. the latter is what i do, even to the point of actually going in and out when we had the *2game disc* always 4-5 month ago maybe?...

I think alittle more education about the state of how people are doing this would be nice for you.. including the fact that again no one send log and those who did already quit for the wait of the release

 

not sure how long you been here but sadly dont think those who left will be willing to explain everything to you and i rather not, i did everything i could in here and now im waiting for the release after the wipe ^,^ which will be done

Edited by Dion

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6 hours ago, Dion said:

right here is where i couldn't go any further or even bother, maybe ill leave this here,  since i think im gonna repeat my self anyway

 

1. no enough logs been sent, you can play the f**** out of this game and send 0 log you can test this game by playing it and send log. the latter is what i do, even to the point of actually going in and out when we had the *2game disc* always 4-5 month ago maybe?...

I think alittle more education about the state of how people are doing this would be nice for you.. including the fact that again no one send log and those who did already quit for the wait of the release

 

not sure how long you been here but sadly dont think those who left will be willing to explain everything to you and i rather not, i did everything i could in here and now im waiting for the release after the wipe ^,^ which will be done

I am not sure you acknowledge the problems at hand...

Here is an example for you after the wipe: 

Everyone only has the starter cards again and you want to buy the Infect card, which is I would say one of the most popular cards in the game alltogether. Unless you are extremely lucky pulling the card from a booster you will have to buy it from the AH. Today the price (just checked...) is 3000 BFP. It will not be less after wipe (my opinion...) and with current and possibly future BFP earning system it will take you ~5-6 days to be able to buy it. To get full charges, eg. 4 cards in total will take you 25-30 days. For one card!!!

My most popular deck, fully upgraded, then in today's value: 

45372 BFPs, that is 20 cards rangeing from 5 BFPs a pop to 3000 and common to ultra rare.

This deck will take me "no more" than 90,744 days to complete. Given then that prices are what they are now and that the cards needed are available in the AH for purchase and me playing like crazy.

Does this not worry you? I sure worries me, also this would be the case for you and me who I would say know our ways around the game. But imagine how it will be for newbies, would they ever be able to buy an Infect before they quit the game?

// Ponni

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https://gist.github.com/Kubikx/189d173c337e4d996382cc59b0bf7919

Infect is most used Ultra rare card (unless I miss some)

But where did you get that price from? Action data say that average price is 1900 :bf: and median of prices is even lower 1440 :bf: which makes you very expensive deck 16% cheaper on single card.
If I apply same values to your final price, I think at that rate you will build the deck too fast already.

Also most players do not play shadow, so if they will get the card, they will have no use for it.

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27 minutes ago, Kubik said:

https://gist.github.com/Kubikx/189d173c337e4d996382cc59b0bf7919

Infect is most used Ultra rare card (unless I miss some)

But where did you get that price from? Action data say that average price is 1900 :bf: and median of prices is even lower 1440 :bf: which makes you very expensive deck 16% cheaper on single card.
If I apply same values to your final price, I think at that rate you will build the deck too fast already.

Also most players do not play shadow, so if they will get the card, they will have no use for it.

Nice list!! : )

AH prices are from today as stated and I have seen Infect out for 5000 also. If they are sold for those prices I obviously do not know. But what else should I do the calculations on? Prices on AH are real right and if I do not have any options but wait to buy it for 1900 there are additional weeks of waiting...or to buy them for 3000...

I do not understand the comment on getting the deck too fast, how fast should I get it then? Because I need to be like on level 10 to upgrade ultra rares maximum and that part alone will take some time before it happens.

// Ponni

Edited by Ponni
Correct level for upgrade of Ultra rare cards...

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Well I used prices that it was really sold for which never was over 3900 :bf: but mostly around 1200 :bf: which created median 1440 :bf: which is less than half of the price you used in your calculation, so if I divide your 90 days by 2, it is only 45 days which in my opinion is pretty fast for fully upgraded expensive deck.

You do not need any level to upgrade cards? Where you come to that conclusion? Level was never needed.

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19 minutes ago, Kubik said:

Well I used prices that it was really sold for which never was over 3900 :bf: but mostly around 1200 :bf: which created median 1440 :bf: which is less than half of the price you used in your calculation, so if I divide your 90 days by 2, it is only 45 days which in my opinion is pretty fast for fully upgraded expensive deck.

You do not need any level to upgrade cards? Where you come to that conclusion? Level was never needed.

Ok, so Infect has sold for 3900, good to know. Can you be of service then to bring out the average, median and top prices for the following cards. If now we want to make the calculations accurate (and I must confess I have bought one Infect card for 200 BFP, I felt a bit guilty actually but bought it anyway...):

Forsaken, Shadow Phoenix, Cultist Master, Batariel (fire), Soul Splicer (nature), Embalmer's Shrine, Furnace of Flesh, Resource Booster, Motivate, Life Weaving, Unholy Power, Unholy Hero, Frenetic (shadow), Frenetic (nature), Infect, Nether Warp (green), Thunderstorm, Equilibrium (nature), Regrowth and finally Enlightenment.

For all of you out there, deck above is extremely useful in RPVE, at least up to level 9!

Upgrade is one thing, charges is another...to me a fully upgraded card includes all charges. And for an Ultra rare, you need to be rank 10 to do the 3rd and last charge, right?

Again, what is fast here? This is not a new game, its been out there for 10+ years. Shall we strip our minds also of the knowledge accumulated during this time? Knowledge that at least I am happy to share with anyone that asks.

Also, what colors people play I do not really think has anything to do with it in the long run. When people start learning the game I am certain it will change and over time more and more people will get the idea of which cards (not colors) are useful and wanted. As an example, someone (one of the top players) in this forum got a question about which color he preferred and he answered: I do not have any favourite color...sums it up I would say. Your comment then I feel more states that people get stuck in one box not able to get out because the thresholds to get further are too high, eg. lack of BFP, lack of cards from boosters or AH and of course lack of knowledge. Hereby not bashing anyone that wants to play pure frost, even though I would never do it... ;)

// Ponni

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200 :bf: was not the cheapest :P

Forsaken 15, Shadow Phoenix 258, Cultist Master 290, Motivate 213, Life Weaving 49, Unholy Power5, ... there is too many of them and I am too lazy to list them all :P

How it could be useful? it is full of shadow cards that most do not know how to play.

No you do not need level to upgrade cards.

I try to explain it to you look at cards and check how many lines on average they have. You will find out that shadow have significantly more text than nature or frost.

I am not saying that more text is bad, but you need to use that text or your cards will be weaker than if you would use it.

Everyone can easily understand heal, or shoot, but shadow specifically have a lot of cards that you need to combine with something else to at least make that effect usefull.

You can just spam windweawers and be competitive in PvE compared to someone doing some smart strategy and card combost with a lot of micro management.
Which means green is much more newbie friendly.

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34 minutes ago, Kubik said:

200 :bf: was not the cheapest :P

Forsaken 15, Shadow Phoenix 258, Cultist Master 290, Motivate 213, Life Weaving 49, Unholy Power5, ... there is too many of them and I am too lazy to list them all :P

How it could be useful? it is full of shadow cards that most do not know how to play.

No you do not need level to upgrade cards.

I try to explain it to you look at cards and check how many lines on average they have. You will find out that shadow have significantly more text than nature or frost.

I am not saying that more text is bad, but you need to use that text or your cards will be weaker than if you would use it.

Everyone can easily understand heal, or shoot, but shadow specifically have a lot of cards that you need to combine with something else to at least make that effect usefull.

You can just spam windweawers and be competitive in PvE compared to someone doing some smart strategy and card combost with a lot of micro management.
Which means green is much more newbie friendly.

Less than 200! :o 

Its ok, but then I will stick with my calculations summing up things at 90,477 days to get my deck. ;) Also, I can post another deck which is equally expensive but with more fire and nature cards. If now Shadow is trickier to play for most...in which I have another point on below...

Yes, I do need level, but I agree not for upgrade, but it is for charges. This make a huge difference for certain cards, for example Infect (Ultra Rare), which you cannot have an extra charge until Rank 8. This would effectively mean until Rank 8 you can only cast it twice before you need to wait until it has recharged again, instead of the 30 secs stated in the card. And for more power expensive cards, like Enlightenment, you need to wait like 70-80 seconds to cast it a second time unless you have an extra charge. Unless using Offering of course...

The point here is that I do not think people are just playing pure nature forever because it is difficult to play other colors and cards, there are obstacles to overcome as I mentioned in the previous post. With those, and also not having any friends to play with (and teach) you in game, being kicked out of groups because your deck level is low is another, etc. With all these things I do not envy those starting to play the game now. However, getting knowledge is one thing (you can check Youtube, read the forum or play with me and my friends) but if getting the cards you want or need is costing the amount of time I have tried to explain earlier I worry a bit on the future ahead.

// Ponni

 

 

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You do not need level for combining neither upgrades, neither charges.

I do not play shadow even thou I have all cards, and I know many other players that just do not play shadow, because it is weaker (unless you use all these combos)

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37 minutes ago, Kubik said:

You do not need level for combining neither upgrades, neither charges.

I do not play shadow even thou I have all cards, and I know many other players that just do not play shadow, because it is weaker (unless you use all these combos)

Well, is it something you have changed recently then? In game now it is still stated you need a certain rank to use charges...please check image.

 

rank.png

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36 minutes ago, Kubik said:

you can get upgrades on story maps by winning, you do not need to buy them.

I have purchased pretty much all my upgrades with gold, with that I need to follow what is stated on that upgrade side, correct? I have not played all PvE campaign maps a million times to get the upgrades...do you have any stats on how people have gotten their upgrades? Most I would say do like me....

Additional question, any stats on how many players out of the 4000 in the community that have completed the Nightmare's End map, expert level?

// Ponni

Edited by Ponni
typo, additional question

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