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MrXLink

New BFP Earning System: Playtime and Reserves

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i haven't really keep up with the already posted comments but i have some concerns about the new system. first of all the amount of time it takes to get bfp is way too high. no one is going to play so much . reaching the hardcap by 2 hours of playtime is enough. people don't have 6 or so hours to play per day to reach it. 


second of all and this is the real problem, we need hard cap on a single match. in the current state the system is really really REALLY easy to exploit. i wont go into detail in public so you can pm for it.

The current game demographic isn't midschoolers, its mainly adults coming back into the game after playing in 2009 meaning we can't play more than an hour or 2 on the game. people that can play the 6 or so hours per day will just dominate everything. I believe reaching the hard cap(with the same amount of bfp gain) is better within 2 hours so some people will still have an advantage but not entirely.
All in all the system seems good but its highly unbalanced. Plus the exploit which will make some people VERY rich.

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On 12/16/2019 at 3:01 PM, MrXLink said:

That is the general consensus right now. As for splitting PvP completely apart from the rest of the game, this is a much bigger issue that has been around for the longest time, and isn't as straightforward to do as you think, especially with a community of this size. I'm not saying I'm not considering to figure PvP servers out, but I'm still genuinely concerned about how it would affect general progression and server population if we were just going to make a hard division for everyone

A bit late to this, but any thoughts on my suggestion for locked, composed pvp decks?

As a pvp player, I am currently quite happy with progression rate. I think it's a sweet spot where I can learn one deck for a month or so while saving up to buy the next one.

I think slowing the progression would kill things for many pvp players.

However, if locked, composed decks are available to buy in the marketplace, then I can just spend 100 bfp to rent one for pure fire, and now I don't really care that I can't afford 4 juggernauts and fire dancers.

Of course if I want to play pure fire, I will want to buy the cards myself and form my own deck so that I can have cards in my favorite hotkey positions/make one or two tech choices, but until I can buy it myself, the locked composed deck would put me on an even playing field with others.

 

 

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Unrelated to my last comment, I really like having boosters every day. 

I wonder if it's possible to add a cheaper booster as a 30 min daily reward, in addition to the soft cap system.

My wife plays this game because I enjoy it, but the part she likes most is opening boosters. She likes feeling that her 30 mins got her something concrete, so now she can have fun opening it. Without this discrete award for X time, I don't think she would be as motivated to play each day.

I think replacing the 450 bfp booster with a 100bfp one would be a nice bonus for players like her. This one could be just a couple of commons and maybe 1 card with 60% chance of uncommon, 39% chance of rare, 1% chance of ultrarare.

 Or it could be that she gets 1 random card for playing 30 mins, with higher chance of it being valuable (personally I like if the market has lots of cheap common cards; new players can feel special if a player just gives them free windweavers or ghostspears or other useful common cards)

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@LEBOVIN Points 1, 2, possibly 7, 8+9 is being discussed internally already. 
For the points that are not right now:
3- First win of the day widens gap for players not being able to play per day. Also like Mephisto said this is mostly aesthetics are you are bound to win at least once per day if you play. 
4- You're comparing the current implemented system and not new proposal
5-could be an idea
6- doesnt really change anything i think. It will just make quest abit harder to complete for speedrunners.
10- maybe a reward for consecutive days of play for beginners or for everyone in first x months per week of booster with lower rarity cards 5 commons and 3 uncommons like he suggest or something else.
11- Not sure about this, would allow people to buy their way into upgrades, with loss of bfp.
12- artificially raise gold prices for later progression might encourage a "AH alt", also not a good idea as players will probably feel pressured by very high gold auction prices.
13- not needed if 12 is not implemented
14- might be an idea, but will create much volatility with players mass buying useless cards for cheap to forge new ones, inflating prices or not selling those cards in favor of forging, pushing supply of those cards to nearly 0, making it impossible to purchase.

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Well it is ok, it was a concept of interlinked suggestive ideas. If they are being discussed that's already fine with me :)

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I remember the good old Battleforge days.

Players were spending hundreds of Dollars (myself included) on buying boosters.

Players couldn't have enough of them.

Opening boosters was and still is - addictive.

Therefore, I like the idea of allowing players to buy one booster per day at a discounted price of 200 BFP.

Completing all 3 BFP quests earns exactly 200 BFP, which is exactly enough for the discounted booster.

So please think about and implement it quickly if you favor this idea. 

 

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3 hours ago, macabi said:

I remember the good old Battleforge days.

Players were spending hundreds of Dollars (myself included) on buying boosters.

Players couldn't have enough of them.

Opening boosters was and still is - addictive.

Therefore, I like the idea of allowing players to buy one booster per day at a discounted price of 200 BFP.

Completing all 3 BFP quests earns exactly 200 BFP, which is exactly enough for the discounted booster.

So please think about and implement it quickly if you favor this idea. 

 

We have something exactly like that in test server. Kubik implemented it before he left .But it’s very buggy and crashes your game immediately so we need to fix it :/

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9 hours ago, Ultrakool said:

We have something exactly like that in test server. Kubik implemented it before he left .But it’s very buggy and crashes your game immediately so we need to fix it :/

I am glad to hear that.

Good luck with fixing the issue.

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As an RTS and TCG one of the best things for me about this gam and I play a lot of Magic is actually opening the booster.   This was fun.  Trading the cards is also important.   I do feel that we should be able to get Boosters in some way or form.  Maybe it's the gambler in me or just the hope of getting a Utra rare card, but I would hate to see this disappear from the game completely as this was one of the attractions to the game from many peoples point of view including mine!   Best of luck with the testing of the new system.  Cheers!

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm curious what lead you to this solution instead of slightly modifying existing solutions in other games?

This is not supposed to be a judgemental response, I'm really just curious.

As far as I understand it, your goals are to have hardcore and non-hardcore players earn BFP at roughly the same rate, although not completely locking out rewards for players that play more than others. Also, you can and will not implement any real-money solutions. You want to keep quests and reward time spent playing. 

To me, all of this seems like it is basically a textbook example of implementing a solution similar to what Hearthstone does:
1. Let players earn BFP by winning/completing matches/scenarios (or simply just by playing the game, similar to this playtime and reserve system) (I am aware that the former solution would need to be very carefully balanced according to difficulty and time played as to not essentially force players to play PvP over PvE or spam low level scenarios to grind BFP, but I think that is not necessarily impossible to achieve)
2. Give players (insert number here) quest(s) per day, up to a maximum cap. Allow quests to be stacked while not playing. This keeps the same BFP/Quest rewards as well as providing a straight catch-up mechanism for less-frequent players.

In Hearthstone, you get 1 Quest each day with a value of somewhere between 20-100 Gold (more gold = more rare), and each booster costs 100 Gold. You can stack up a maximum of 3 Quests, so for quests it makes no difference whether you play 1 quest/day or 3 quests every 3 days. Winning 3 PvP matches earns you 5 Gold (I think?). In very rare cases (like new expansions or special events), there will be special quest (/-chains) that just reward packs (or cosmetics) directly. Of course, these numbers are heavily downtuned in order to get players to spend real money, but a system like this could be adjusted to fit a completely free approach. Essentially, your main source of BFP in this case would be quests. Personally, I think the combination of 1 Quest/day and some non-quest gameplay (say, in total, about 2 hours) should always equal roughly 1 booster. With the right balance, this would still keep hardcore players slightly ahead of everyone else (which, tbh, is a good thing in my opinion, else it is just unrewarding/pointless to play the game more), but not completely lock people out who may only be playing 2 or 3 times a week. If you would decide to reward winning/completing instead of simply playing matches, this would also remove some ways to abuse the system (e.g. going into a match and just tabbing out for 90 minutes).

What are your thoughts on this? Have you thought about altering the quest system or rewarding winning instead of just playtime?

Edited by Vorax

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5 hours ago, Vorax said:

I'm curious what lead you to this solution instead of slightly modifying existing solutions in other games?

This is not supposed to be a judgemental response, I'm really just curious.

As far as I understand it, your goals are to have hardcore and non-hardcore players earn BFP at roughly the same rate, although not completely locking out rewards for players that play more than others. Also, you can and will not implement any real-money solutions. You want to keep quests and reward time spent playing. 

To me, all of this seems like it is basically a textbook example of implementing a solution similar to what Hearthstone does:
1. Let players earn BFP by winning/completing matches/scenarios (or simply just by playing the game, similar to this playtime and reserve system) (I am aware that the former solution would need to be very carefully balanced according to difficulty and time played as to not essentially force players to play PvP over PvE or spam low level scenarios to grind BFP, but I think that is not necessarily impossible to achieve)
2. Give players (insert number here) quest(s) per day, up to a maximum cap. Allow quests to be stacked while not playing. This keeps the same BFP/Quest rewards as well as providing a straight catch-up mechanism for less-frequent players.

In Hearthstone, you get 1 Quest each day with a value of somewhere between 20-100 Gold (more gold = more rare), and each booster costs 100 Gold. You can stack up a maximum of 3 Quests, so for quests it makes no difference whether you play 1 quest/day or 3 quests every 3 days. Winning 3 PvP matches earns you 5 Gold (I think?). In very rare cases (like new expansions or special events), there will be special quest (/-chains) that just reward packs (or cosmetics) directly. Of course, these numbers are heavily downtuned in order to get players to spend real money, but a system like this could be adjusted to fit a completely free approach. Essentially, your main source of BFP in this case would be quests. Personally, I think the combination of 1 Quest/day and some non-quest gameplay (say, in total, about 2 hours) should always equal roughly 1 booster. With the right balance, this would still keep hardcore players slightly ahead of everyone else (which, tbh, is a good thing in my opinion, else it is just unrewarding/pointless to play the game more), but not completely lock people out who may only be playing 2 or 3 times a week. If you would decide to reward winning/completing instead of simply playing matches, this would also remove some ways to abuse the system (e.g. going into a match and just tabbing out for 90 minutes).

What are your thoughts on this? Have you thought about altering the quest system or rewarding winning instead of just playtime?

The main reason for prefering time based bfp rewards over 'winning' bfp rewards is that in Battleforge some players can win a map on expert in 3 minutes while others need about 30 minutes to 1 hour for the same map. If the bfp reward would be for winning the map, speedrunners are able to earn a lot more than casual players in the same amount of time. It also might lead players to play the shortest maps instead of the maps that they most enjoy (and it would be very hard to balance rewards to prevent this). Also keep in mind that upgrade/gold rewards are already based on winning.

As for quests, we are planning to keep the quest system next to the playtime rewards. Currently only one quest stacks to the next day and we are planning to increase this. In fact we are already testing this on the testserver.

 

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Any update on the numbers or "boost stacking"?

90 minutes does seem a bit excessive. Especially with the added incentive to utilize the reserve pool.

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1 hour ago, Cocofang said:

Any update on the numbers or "boost stacking"?

90 minutes does seem a bit excessive. Especially with the added incentive to utilize the reserve pool.

There are a lot of ideas in the works (in discussion) to combat this already, but we have nothing concrete yet.

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Based on some of your feedback and concerns, we're pushing out an update to this entire system and more to the test server.
Major issues have been addressed to improve and change things for the better, such as boost stacking, closing the BFP gap, lowering the required playtime, and making rewards more enticing.
Feel free to check the detailed update out over here (don't worry, there's a TL;DR bulletpoint list for those who'd rather not go over all my ranting ;) )

 

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