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MrXLink

New BFP Earning System: Playtime and Reserves

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Posted (edited)

Well, from playing maybe?!?

Except today, today it is a f*cking 150 in total only... *sigh*

1. 75x2 = 150
2. 50x2 = 100
1+2=250

Actually every day for the last week except today.
Even got 5 quests the other day where from 4 already gave 75 each.

I've always liked the game but hated the design philosophy because it just doesn't work.
Giving people a cap on progress only makes people stop playing completely.

Now did it work better from a free to play point of view just forcing people in buying decks if they wanna progress, but still.

You know someone enjoys what he is doing...
So you gonna tell he has to stop right now and he may return to play, tomorrow?
Exactly the point.

Edited by Theo1143

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Since beginning of Open Stress Test there was only 3 quests per day.

1 = play 30 minutes, get booster, if you did not complete it, you keep the quest until you complete it, and get it again next day.

2 = random quests for 75 BFP each, if you did not complete them you get up to 2 new quests to maximum of 3 of those. Later was added option to re-roll the quest and get different one for only 50 BFP (re-rolling 50 BFP quest will result in 50 BFP quest again).

There never was more quests (except test server that at one point have quest giving booster for every match).

There are Achievements, Christmas => Santa, Easter => Egg, Complete X quests => booster.

Quests reset might be at different time based on your time zone, but it is once per 24 hours, so if you have 4x75 BFP from quests you must not have quests day before, or day after that.

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Posted (edited)

Wierd because I really got them as said above...

Also did I get 7 new quests at the beginning of the new year, did all me quests at 31-12-2019 and somewhere in the middle of the night I got all new 7.
(exactly the same as I did the day before) While the timer said about 6 - 10 hours left until new quests...

Beside doing me daily quests there is nothing for me to progress in so no idea why you would think I would lie about it.

It is not hard to do 5 games to complete most quests... (open a bunch of chests play some games, and while some even count together it makes it even easier)

Edited by Theo1143

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Long post so short version ahead:

TL;DR -- The Short Version

-Slowly card and BFP gain is good for pve, fast gain is good for pvp. It depends on focus whats good (i like pve btw... :P)

-No specific like colour based daily quests. Daily quests all can achieve please

__________________________________________________________________________________

Long version:

Getting BFP for playing sounds good. I know i wouldn't play everyday and i loose the max amount of BFP i could get... but honestly if you play every now and than only you don't have to expect to get everything.

The thing about buying card packs or just use the AH is: It will balance itself i guess. If the cardprizes get too high you can buy packs and sell them. If the cardprizes get too low you buy cards at AH instead of packs... The question is more for the real rare cards and how hard to get they will become. And that brings me to another question for the focus:

How important ist min/maxing for the player and how important it is to collect and and develop your deck.

 

For min/maxing focus it would be good to make it possible to get easy and fast to a ultimate deck by giving much card packs/BFP:

Pro:

+It is vital for pvp because it would be bad loosing because the enemy has better cards.

+You can fast get to the high challenging pve missions for those loving to get fast through a game

Negative:

-Fast getting boring for many because if you have everything the motivation to play and collect more drops

-Fast getting boring if you win the hard maps too fast / early because the deck gets too strong too fast

-resulting in the loss of longevity exspecially for those playing pve

All in all: Good for PVP, bad for PVE (expect you are one of those that love to rush threw a game and than don't play it anymore but those are not good for a community)

 

For collector and deckdeveloper focus it would be good to slowly (how slowly depends on the player) getting card packs/BFP:

Pro:

+ The fun if you get a good card you spend much time to get, either it be for selling, giving your friend that needs it for his deck or for your own deck

+ Long time motivation of collectiing and expand your collection

+ Having fun seeing you get better and better as you get stronger cards over time

+ Having motivation to become stronger with time, thus wanting to spend time playing the game

+ (for those funny little mad guys among us like me XD) Having fun to try the missions with the crapdeck you only have early and find ways to make missions possibly with it (yeah you could make a crapdeck even with good cards available and not using them but this doesn't feel good), than making this missions with the slighty better cards you collected than and enjoying seeing how smoother it gets but still having to find unorthodox ways to be able to win with those cards, than with the next upgrade of cards enjoy getting it smoother and smoother etc.

Negative:

- Bad for pvp as you get beaten by guys that just have better cards than you do

- Bad for those that want to complete the game as fast as possible to jump to the next game.

- Bad for those loving to be imba and steamroll things

All in all: Good for pve (expect for those fast/easy win loving guys) and bad for pvp

_______________________________________________________________________________________

The last thing is that i didn't find and wonder if it's only me and my friends:

We love playing together and thus taking the decision to share the cards. One play fire deck, one frost, one nature, one shadow and than with the mixed cards coming in changing depeding on what we have, leading to the mix of the cards (nature/frost, fire/shadow). The result is everyone gets to have good cards because if you play an element you get all the cards from 3 different players in addition to your own and that is for your friends too. Teamplay rocks and yeah you need good friends you can depend on to do this.

But with this i plead: Stay with the quests everone can make. No colour based quests destroying friends sharing and those having no good cards of one colour. No expert only or difficulty 9 or higher quests that lead to people not helping the weak or letting the strong dominate the market even more. One time achievements okay, but not daily quests. Daily quest should motivate all to play. And keep the roll new function for those that don't play pvp to change to pve quest and vice versa or just the quest win/play 3pve or pvp mission quest (or to make it fair as pve you can more easily win if you want to, make it win 3pvp or 5pve missions, something like this), that would be nice.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

As i am a coop pve loving player i don't need to say what i prefer. But no matter the decision at the end: Thank you making the final reset (when it comes) and letting me and my friends enjoying this game. As far as i seen it you listen to the community, so the result will be a good one, even though it can't be the right for everyone and it will be a hard decision. Realy don't want to be in your shoes there devs ^^

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Hey there, "short" question

The idea of changing from booster quest to bfp quests only is quite nice but the booster openings are a lot of fun (or can) but limiting the "free" boosters to the achievements only is a bit drastic. Because of all this the total opened boosters will be reduced highly so less cards will be on the market and cause of that the prices will rise for all of them. That´s indeed a nice thing but it may be to much for players who only play from time to time or starters. So would´t it be possible to create besides daily quests for bfp also one or two weekly quests for booster packs? most easy ones would be logging in 7 days in a row and finish 10 daily quests per week. Of course the time to time players would´t get the benefit directly from that but throughout that the total amount of opened boosters would be higher and more cards would be on the market and the prices would´t be as high as they could get with this limitation. With these mechanics also the time to time players would have some benefit due to lower prices?!

 

Sorry if a topic like this was previous discussed but I did´t read everything tbh

Edited by LordMarc
typo

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On 1/14/2020 at 11:48 AM, LordMarc said:

Hey there, "short" question

The idea of changing from booster quest to bfp quests only is quite nice but the booster openings are a lot of fun (or can) but limiting the "free" boosters to the achievements only is a bit drastic. Because of all this the total opened boosters will be reduced highly so less cards will be on the market and cause of that the prices will rise for all of them. That´s indeed a nice thing but it may be to much for players who only play from time to time or starters. So would´t it be possible to create besides daily quests for bfp also one or two weekly quests for booster packs? most easy ones would be logging in 7 days in a row and finish 10 daily quests per week. Of course the time to time players would´t get the benefit directly from that but throughout that the total amount of opened boosters would be higher and more cards would be on the market and the prices would´t be as high as they could get with this limitation. With these mechanics also the time to time players would have some benefit due to lower prices?!

 

Sorry if a topic like this was previous discussed but I did´t read everything tbh

If the prices for cards increase, it will also be possible to sell the cards from a booster for higher prices. If the prices increase even more, it will be possible to earn BFP by buying booster and selling the cards. Sure it is a bit random, but overall it would give you profit+fun over time. That would pump cards into the market, which would then decrease the prices for cards again. It should balance itself by its own. So don't worry :)

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20 hours ago, Halis said:

If the prices for cards increase, it will also be possible to sell the cards from a booster for higher prices. If the prices increase even more, it will be possible to earn BFP by buying booster and selling the cards. Sure it is a bit random, but overall it would give you profit+fun over time. That would pump cards into the market, which would then decrease the prices for cards again. It should balance itself by its own. So don't worry :)

That's not how it works at all lol. The prices will increase only on used cards for example: Mine, and other cards that are not used much will stay in the trash tier and cost 3 bfp. Thus it creates the same problem we have now, good cards that you need are insanely pricey and bad cards which you don't even need are 3 bfp. Yet again we come to the point where you are just spamming boosters and hope for a pricey card.
So please explain how does your system in wonderland and glitter land will work and balance itself.

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I think all the economy depends on the mixture of playerbase.

Veterans make more cards to auction so they decrease the prices.New players incrase the prizes because they just buy everything they need.

The actually problem is because "Old" guys stop playing and dont fill the market with the same amount of cards what they bought when they were "New".

Auctionhouse is like a card pool and most of the people get more from it then they fill.

It makes everything expensive.

I think the only non programming solution is to keep veterans playing.

There should be some great thing like disenhant cards option for fix bfp price/rarity.It would fix the minimum price for "trash cards".

Make flat for auctions /rarity.It would maximize the prizes for ultra expensive cards.

Make a reroll ring where you can put 3 cards to destroy from the same rarity and you get a random new one.

I think these things just impossible at the moment.

So only card balancing left what can makes some minor changes in the prices of the auction house.

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On 1/20/2020 at 8:21 PM, ktoeto said:

That's not how it works at all lol. The prices will increase only on used cards for example: Mine, and other cards that are not used much will stay in the trash tier and cost 3 bfp. Thus it creates the same problem we have now, good cards that you need are insanely pricey and bad cards which you don't even need are 3 bfp. Yet again we come to the point where you are just spamming boosters and hope for a pricey card.
So please explain how does your system in wonderland and glitter land will work and balance itself.

If you know German or one of these languages, you can read the following Wikipedia Text: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marktgleichgewicht

grafik.png.be0f84d3958b50aff70e59fd64330929.png
Keep in mind, that production cost of cards is constant 450BFP. The point, at which you will get on average more than 450BFP worth of cards out of a booster, will let clever player buy boosters and sell the cards, to earn some extra BFP.

Edit: Found an English source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_equilibrium_theory

Edited by Halis
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14 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

[Proposal]

Thank you for writing this proposal, it really helps to see more idea's/opinions about how the reward system could work. I would like to encourage more players to create similar posts.

As for my personal feedback on your proposal, I will walk through it point by point. As a general remark I think only point 4, 8 and 9 needs to be into account taken together (maybe place them next to eachother), the rest can be threated as separate suggestions.

1. I heavily disagree with your statement that the market is extremely flooded with cards. Imo there are currently even way too less offers in the market to have stable prices. Some cards dont even have one offer from time to time. Nevertheless I agree that removing the daily booster is necessary for the new system. I would like to have some way to earn boosters though, like in the form of achievements.

2. I agree to add more achievements. I also would like to encourange you to think about more quests that could be added as daily that are in line with the current ones (2xpve win, 3xpvp, 3x10min, 1xmultiplayer, 2xrpve win, 7xgoldchest) so it would be less of repeating the same thing. There also should be achievements for people with a lower level imo, but I agree that there also should be a focus on challenging people with more experience.

3. Not really sure if this really adds anything since most of the daily quests already reward you for winning a match each day, but I dont really have problem with it either. Maybe if we have more diversity among daily quests this could be a thing. You are also talking about gold rewards here, lets focus on just the bfp rewards first and talk about gold rewards later (I agree that gold also needs rebalancing).

4. I like the simplicity and the values seem to be ok on first glance. However this system is still just focussing on daily play. For the new system I really would like players to not feel 'forced' to play every single day to not miss out on a big part of the rewards. So for example I would like to bring closer the rewards you get by playing 7x1hour(each day) or by playing 2x4hours(2 days) for example. I know one of your point 9 is carrying over more daily quests to the next day, but I dont think that is enough and I would encourage you to also add something for it in the time rewards. For example a weekly factor.

5. Ok, maybe a bit higher reward.

6. I disagree, most of the quests are already a lot in favor of speedrunners because they have fast victories/runs, no need to compensate that group even more. Besides most maps are even not done in less than 10 minutes by the best speedrunners. Also by changing this the diversity of the already similar quests becomes even smaller and the '3x10minutes' quest would just become the same as playing the first 30 minutes of the time-based-reward of point 4.
Btw, the current 'win 2xpve' quest doesnt have a time condition so is already in favor of speedrunners, so why do you propose to add it to this one (and not to the RPVE one)?

7. Ok. I think the only quest that is not transparant/clear is the quest that says 'play 3 games'. So would changing that one to 'Play 3 games of at least 10 minutes each' be enough for changing the descriptions?

8. See point 4 for my feedback. Afaik the reroll is already limited to once per day. 

9. See point 4 for my feedback.

10. This just seems like an extra achievement to me, but ok. I was thinking about (also) rewarding beginners with extra charges for the starting deck after first few games.

11. This should be considered when talking about rebalancing gold. Not sure if there are players really interested in this though. Also note that gold and bfp have been separate currencies on purpose (https://forum.skylords.eu/index.php?/topic/1275-current-proposal-tokens-gold/).

12. I agree to add more ways to spend gold, but I strongly disagree with this proposal. Like I stated in point 1 there are not many auctions for certain cards already, this will only lower it. I would be willing to consider something similar if it would be the buyer that would have to pay a gold 'fee' (to the server) for each card he buys instead of the seller, but I'd rather leave the auction house out of it. So I would like to promote using the auction house more, not demote. And of course the gold rewards should be balanced. 

13. Not sure on what you want to base the gold cost exactly, but I dont think trading should be demoted either.

14. Ok, only not sure about the last option yet. I would also add a gold fee for this btw, it would be a lot better gold sink than point 12 and 13 imo.

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@MephistoRoss you probably miss the fact that LEBOVIN connected gold and BFP, so it can not be taken separatly in his system.

for the points 3. and 4. this system give most value from quests, not a playtime, so missing a day is not a big deal. (missing 2 days already is).

6. and 7. all quests have time requirement, you should know them

12. interesting option to add gold fee for the buyer

14. that point with current numbers and card rarrity/prices is totally broken :(

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55 minutes ago, Kubik said:

@MephistoRoss you probably miss the fact that LEBOVIN connected gold and BFP, so it can not be taken separatly in his system.

I didn't miss the bfp->gold conversion point if you mean that, but it only works one direction so it is not a way to gain more bfp (only lose), so it doesnt affect the bfp income and thus can be treated separately from the bfp rewards. Not sure yet if I support the idea though.
You would be right though if he had proposed that the conversion would also work in the other direction.

55 minutes ago, Kubik said:

for the points 3. and 4. this system give most value from quests, not a playtime, so missing a day is not a big deal. (missing 2 days already is).

I understood that, but I dont think his proposal is enough to compensate (especialy when you miss multiple days in a row). I'd like to compensate a bit more but with the requirement that you have to play more on the day(s) that you do play. For example so that someone who plays only 2 days during a week for 4 hours a day earns only slightly less than someone who plays each day 1 hour during a week.
And yes the current system compensates even less for this, so his idea is a step in the right direction, just not big enough to my personal liking. 

55 minutes ago, Kubik said:

6. and 7. all quests have time requirement

Right, but for 6 the other time requirements are so low that they do not really matter (even for speedrunners) because you need a victory for the other pve quests.
For 7, they could all be added in the description. I forgot about the pvp one, that should also be added in the description for sure.

55 minutes ago, Kubik said:

14. that point with current numbers and card rarrity/prices is totally broken :(

This idea was suggested a couple times before and it is implemented in other games where it works fine I think (Hearthstone?).
Maybe I am missing something, but what is so broken about it if we would implement it in Battleforge with current numbers according to you?

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His proposal created also bigger sinks for gold, so there would be a reason to convert BFP to gold, so you can not just separate that. (does not mean I am in favor of that conversion)

well forging cards:

is it supposed to give something more valuable most of times?

how much value (card price converted to BFP) is it supposed to generate, or remove from the system?

too much RNG dependent?

I do not know about Hearthstone enough, but in Hearthstone you can not trade cards.
Here it would open option to buy all cheap cards and create already mentioned shamans from it.
With current numbers and 4 handpicked cards (shaman among them), assumin all other cards have value of 3 :bf: it would generate over 60 :bf: per conversion on average.
He mentioned that as a small note there that can be easily overlooked, but current state does not realistically alow this.

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I was under the assumption that you would not be able to choose which card would be created but that it would be a random card of that rarity.
So yes people could buy cheap cards to convert them (which would lead to a rise of value of all (cheap) cards), but there would be only a small chance to get a valuable card from it and a bigger chance to have value lost (if you would get a 3bfp card back for example).

Maybe having to convert 3 cards is not enough loss though, but what about 5, 10 or 20?

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"5 cards of the same rarity create 1 card of greater rarity" my numbers was for the worst case of converting 5 commons to 1 random uncommon which could be any of 5 valuable cards, or anything else (assumed 3 BFP value) so your chance is 5 of 147 to be proffitable (3,4%) but prices of some cards are so high that this creates on average profit of over 60 :bf:

but the rest of cases 96,6% will lose (-15+3) 12 :bf: that is too much RNG dependant, it is even worse than opening boosters.

if you take into account that more than 5 uncommon cards have price over 3 :bf: you will get much higher profit

increasing amount of cards required will solve one part, it will no longer be profitable on average

but will make the other (RNG dependent) even worse, because the gap between win and loose will be even bigger

For system like this to work massive rework of cards would be needed.

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It doesnt need to be profitable over average, it shouldnt be even. The whole point is to get rid of cards you dont use and have a (small) chance of getting something valuable in return. Of course this should be very RNG dependent. 

Currently selling most of the invaluable/unused cards in the AH is almost impossible (even for 3bfp) because only a few collectors want them. So you cant do anthing with those cards and they just stack up in your inventory. Having an option like this is at least gives a small chance of getting something useful back, even if it would cost 50 cards.

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I have read through a lot of this, but honestly I am not following half of what is being said. Maybe I am a bit thick... : ) Its a lot of talk about math, inflations and economy. Its like we are talking about EU and its inner market...

Anyhow, I have two suggestions on the future BFP earning system and they are quite simple.

1. All cards with all upgrades and charges given to all players at start. No need for Market place, upgrades or things like that.

2. If 1. is not accepted (probably not) more boosters and BFP to the people and spreading the wealth of the community. With the following sub categories:
    a. Possibility of upto 4 boosters per day, one for logging in then 3 time quests to be fulfilled, 30, 60 and 90 minutes. 
    b. BFP, tied to quests above, 75 for 30 minutes, 100 for 60 mins and 150 for 90mins.
    c. Booster price, lower it to 325 (so you can buy a booster if you want for the income that day)
    d. Market place, create option to give away cards, eg. cost 0 on the AH perhaps.
    e. Make it possible to share Gold with people.
    f. I also would like to suggest turning cards into BFP, but here I do not have any good idea, because I feel it could be problematic if certain cards are always turned into BFP, maybe there will be a shortage...need to think on it. That would of course also impact d. above.

// Ponni

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Just now, Kubik said:

:thinking: does you two suggestions are meant to exist at same time?

because if one would be implemented the other would seem irrelevant.

Well, I guess we can skip 1. because that will never happen, right?

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Honestly what if after reset upon Login you can literally select between your account and an account which is {U}nlocked and has all the things above. If every created account would come with those two versions people would not even have to decide whether or not they want to have an account where progression is done already. Trading, Quests Shop all disabled there. If players that chose to push their progression account by playing with someone that has everything unlocked than so be it. I am very much convinced all advocates for progression would not bother leveling up their progression account if they did not have to ;)

image.thumb.png.ccf5698d62530f98ebb07e54804da29b.png

@Kubik technically possible? 

Edited by LEBOVIN
ktoeto and Ponni like this

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3 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

Honestly what if after reset upon Login you can literally select between your account and an account which is {U}nlocked and has all the things above. If every created account would come with those two versions people would not even have to decide whether or not they want to have an account where progression is done already. Trading, Quests Shop all disabled there. If players that chose to push their progression account by playing with someone that has everything unlocked than so be it. I am very much convinced all advocates for progression would not bother leveling up their progression account if they did not have to ;)

image.thumb.png.ccf5698d62530f98ebb07e54804da29b.png

@Kubik technically possible? 

GIVE IT TO ME! @Kubik

 

 

123.jpg

Edited by ktoeto

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