Wish to contribute to the project by donating? Heads up to our Patreon -> https://www.patreon.com/skylordsreborn

Jump to content
BEWARE: Multiaccounting May Cause Permabans! Read more... ×
NBpanda

Suggestion His/Her -> Their

Recommended Posts

I wanted to suggest that the use of "his/her" within the game (such as "join his/her group" or "look at his/her deck") should be changed to simply "their". Not only is it clunky and disrupts the sentence flow, it excludes players like myself due to the dysphoria it can induce and can leave us not being comfortable playing the game because of it. It seems counterproductive to allow an "other" gender option and use inclusive language in posts on this forum, but to then continue with outdated gendered language in the game itself. 

It's just a subtle change that opens the game and community up to another demographic, and is also a quality-of-life change that makes the text easier to read for everyone. 

Flrbb likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I get what you're saying, OP, you have to remember that it takes time to edit stuff like that. And even when they do, they can't be sure if it doesn't break the game (perhaps sentence length could become an issue or something). They don't have dedicated support for OSX and Linux (yet), because it takes time to develop and they prioritise getting a fully working Windows version because it's less than 1% of the playerbase. 

I'm guessing people who don't identify as either man or woman are even fewer than those who use OSX or Linux. This just isn't a hot button issue at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, RubySauce said:

While I get what you're saying, OP, you have to remember that it takes time to edit stuff like that. And even when they do, they can't be sure if it doesn't break the game (perhaps sentence length could become an issue or something). They don't have dedicated support for OSX and Linux (yet), because it takes time to develop and they prioritise getting a fully working Windows version because it's less than 1% of the playerbase. 

I'm guessing people who don't identify as either man or woman are even fewer than those who use OSX or Linux. This just isn't a hot button issue at the moment.

I... know that? I'm just a little confused as to why you'd respond to my specific suggestion post with "it'll break the game", or that it's not a top priority, when most suggestions aren't. Every suggestion post contains something that will be difficult in some way to implement, or that isn't as important as a Linux or OSX update. As stated in the original post, it's a quality-of-life change, which typically come after a game's full release. 

I hope I don't sound passive aggressive, although I'm sure you can understand why I might be a little tense from reading the previous replies. 

On 9/1/2019 at 4:06 PM, Coveras said:

Leave us with your weird thinking - an illness needs to be cured not embraced. It is dangerous to make people think such things are normal.

 

Edit: Obviously it needs to be tolerated but it is NOT NORMAL. Such people need help not ignorance.

 

On 9/1/2019 at 4:19 PM, Fimion said:

It is a biological Fact that there are only 2 Genders.

Sure there are People who neither FEEL male nor female, but that doesnt mean they actually are.

Thanks for the input, but science doesn't agree with you. If you can't be bothered to do any research before making these sorts of claims, I don't want to argue with you as you clearly don't care enough to get the truth. Have a nice day! 

On 8/31/2019 at 8:59 PM, Kazayrian said:

Yo.

Excuse me, good Xir? Or is it Xer? 

I hereby suggest the use of "Humankind", "Mankind", "Many", "Woman" and other related words to more appropiate "their"-endings, i. e. "Hutheirkind", "Theirkind", "Theiry", "Wotheir", etc. 

Man. Just no.

 I didn't include a disclaimer regarding how far I thought the change needed to go was necessary because I thought anyone with basic reading comprehension could tell from context, but thank you for proving me wrong, I'll adjust how I phrase posts regarding this issue in the future. 

 

It seems as though you don't have a problem when the game developers themselves use gender neutral language in their offical forum posts, however, so this outburst seems a little silly and hypocritical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/31/2019 at 4:07 PM, Kilian Dermoth said:

Are you talking about this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtftZPL-k7Y

:lol:

Since we're linking our favourite youtubers that talk about the subject, here's my contribution. I think he explains trans science pretty well. He makes really well researched arguements, plus he puts his sources in the description and encourages you to check them out yourself and come to your own conclusion. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dklVypazQsA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LqYgjGDaMYg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"gender", "sexual option".
Use of "comprehensive" language is complex.
I believe the staff has not commented yet due to the complexity of the matter.

Whereas, changing such "text" in the game may please some and annoy others.

Never, but NEVER. It is possible to please everyone.

I will not enter merits, because I am not here to judge: P, so I used the "quotes".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Upoo said:

"gender", "sexual option".
Use of "comprehensive" language is complex.
I believe the staff has not commented yet due to the complexity of the matter.

Whereas, changing such "text" in the game may please some and annoy others.

Never, but NEVER. It is possible to please everyone.

I will not enter merits, because I am not here to judge: P, so I used the "quotes".

I get where you're coming from and I appreciate that, however the passive actions of the dev team speak louder than any announcement on the issue they could make. There is a non-binary gender option for this forum, and they do use neutral language alongside gendered language in their official posts.

Unfortunetly, it's people like those above who are just plain transphobic that it offends and, forgive me for being bold, I don't really care if my comfort makes transphobes uncomfortable. It's a life long issue people like me have to deal with and I'm not going to repress myself just so bigots can feel better about their bigotry. Times have changed, and it's time people learned to treat others with basic human decency. 

The problem I find is that none of the people outraged by this suggestion care about the inclusivity displayed by the game devs, they only care because it's been brought to their attention. No one's kicked up a fuss about the gender options, no one's making a big deal about the use of neutral language in the offical posts, people only care now because I was direct about the subject of transgender people and they had to be reminded that we exist. 

Sorry for the tangent, I'm a little stressed lol. I hope I explained my point well enough. Although I'm not sure why "sexual option" is a quote because I never said that, I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding that I'll be happy to clarify! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, NBpanda said:

Unfortunetly, it's people like those above who are just plain transphobic that it offends and, forgive me for being bold, I don't really care if my comfort makes transphobes uncomfortable. It's a life long issue people like me have to deal with and I'm not going to repress myself just so bigots can feel better about their bigotry. Times have changed, and it's time people learned to treat others with basic human decency.

Thats exactly what bothers me about people like you.

I have never insulted you or treated you with disrespect, i just said that i disagree with you.

Many people these days think like this: "If you dont agree with me you are Homo/Transphobic, Sexist or Racist".

You think that there are more than 2 Genders, and i think there are only 2, and thats ok. I dont have a Problem with that.

You are not a victim and we arent oppressing you, we just disagree with you.

If someone would say stuff like "Transgender People are Subhumans", i would be the first one to defend you.

 

 

 

Kilian Dermoth likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NBpanda said:

Although I'm not sure why "sexual option" is a quote because I never said that, I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding that I'll be happy to clarify! 

I just used quotes as a way to start the conversation and not argue about both terms during my text.....
Since I did not want to talk deeply about the subject (believing it to be controversial) and it could generate misunderstandings, ESPECIALLY FOR I DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH FLUENT, but rather use a translator.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Upoo said:

I just used quotes as a way to start the conversation and not argue about both terms during my text.....
Since I did not want to talk deeply about the subject (believing it to be controversial) and it could generate misunderstandings, ESPECIALLY FOR I DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH FLUENT, but rather use a translator.

Ah, ok, I was a little confused but I understand now, thank you for clarifying! 

17 minutes ago, Fimion said:

Thats exactly what bothers me about people like you.

I have never insulted you or treated you with disrespect, i just said that i disagree with you.

Many people these days think like this: "If you dont agree with me you are Homo/Transphobic, Sexist or Racist".

You think that there are more than 2 Genders, and i think there are only 2, and thats ok. I dont have a Problem with that.

You are not a victim and we arent oppressing you, we just disagree with you.

If someone would say stuff like "Transgender People are Subhumans", i would be the first one to defend you.

 

 

 

Except that you're wrong, the science does not agree with you, and your resistance to learn is what causes the conflict. If you had formed your opinion based on current scientific studies with ambiguous results then it would be different, but science does not agree with you at all. It is agreed upon among the scientific community that there are more than 2 genders, more than 2 sexes, ect. and the fact that you won't adjust your beliefs to consider the current scientific consensus is the issue. The blind and wilful ignorance that is the issue. The fact that you claim that your beliefs are based in science when the science doesn't align with your beliefs is the issue. If you have a problem with there being more than 2 genders, that's on you for being a science denier, not on me for defending my right to exist as who I am.

And congratulations on saying you'd be willing to defend me against someone saying that trans people are subhuman, but you are saying that I'm lying about my transness so you have to see the conflict with that statement. You wouldn't defend me because you don't think I'm trans, and preformative activism without understanding what it is you're trying to score points for is worthless. Sorry I'm not a Good Trans that will hold your hand throughout your learning process, but I'm not being paid to be your teacher and the information is free on the internet which, if you actually cared about the subject, you'd actually go and read. People with the same beliefs as you and the same resistance to admitting that their opinion isn't based on anything more than bigotry and a fear of change is what wears the community down to the point of not wanting to help confused people out like a Good Trans should out of self-preservation.

I can yell and scream to just do the research all I want, but people don't care enough to challenge themselves, they just want to be right. It's tedious and depressing and something I've been trying to do for about 6 years now and only 1% of people actually want to learn so why even bother being kind? It gets thrown back into my face anyway. This post was kind, this post was about being inclusive, and you can read the comments for yourself. You even made one of the negative comments, even if you don't believe it to be. Your comment was disrespectful, it is insulting, and the fact that you can't see why is the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, NBpanda said:

Ah, ok, I was a little confused but I understand now, thank you for clarifying! 

Except that you're wrong, the science does not agree with you, and your resistance to learn is what causes the conflict. If you had formed your opinion based on current scientific studies with ambiguous results then it would be different, but science does not agree with you at all. It is agreed upon among the scientific community that there are more than 2 genders, more than 2 sexes, ect. and the fact that you won't adjust your beliefs to consider the current scientific consensus is the issue. The blind and wilful ignorance that is the issue. The fact that you claim that your beliefs are based in science when the science doesn't align with your beliefs is the issue. If you have a problem with there being more than 2 genders, that's on you for being a science denier, not on me for defending my right to exist as who I am.

And congratulations on saying you'd be willing to defend me against someone saying that trans people are subhuman, but you are saying that I'm lying about my transness so you have to see the conflict with that statement. You wouldn't defend me because you don't think I'm trans, and preformative activism without understanding what it is you're trying to score points for is worthless. Sorry I'm not a Good Trans that will hold your hand throughout your learning process, but I'm not being paid to be your teacher and the information is free on the internet which, if you actually cared about the subject, you'd actually go and read. People with the same beliefs as you and the same resistance to admitting that their opinion isn't based on anything more than bigotry and a fear of change is what wears the community down to the point of not wanting to help confused people out like a Good Trans should out of self-preservation.

I can yell and scream to just do the research all I want, but people don't care enough to challenge themselves, they just want to be right. It's tedious and depressing and something I've been trying to do for about 6 years now and only 1% of people actually want to learn so why even bother being kind? It gets thrown back into my face anyway. This post was kind, this post was about being inclusive, and you can read the comments for yourself. You even made one of the negative comments, even if you don't believe it to be. Your comment was disrespectful, it is insulting, and the fact that you can't see why is the issue.

Well ive discussed this subject matter so many times on the Internet and personally, ive grown tired of it.

Sure there is scientific "proof" that there are more than 2 genders, but there is also scientific "proof" that there are only 2.

It all comes down to how you define Genders.

And you said "but you are saying that I'm lying about my transness".

This is not true, by my definition, you are not trans, but by your definition you are.

 

Edited by Fimion
Kilian Dermoth likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Fimion said:

Well ive discussed this subject matter so many times on the Internet and personally, ive grown tired of it.

Sure there is scientific "proof" that there are more than 2 genders, but there is also scientific "proof" that there are only 2.

It all comes down to how you define Genders.

And you said "but you are saying that I'm lying about my transness".

This is not true, by my definition, you are not trans, but by your definition you are.

 

I'm sorry that you chose to discourse the subject matter, however you also chose to comment on this post, so you can't really be that tired of it. Also, it's my life that's being discoursed about, I don't have the choice of not getting involved and you've proved that by your unnecessary comments. This was a positive inclusivity post, you brought the discourse. I also would have thought that if you've discussed the subject so much, you would have done the bare minimum research on it. That's the basic etiquette of having a discussion about something, is it not? Having your beliefs based on reputable sources is an important aspect to consider when having a discussion based on science.

Because if you'd actually been paying attention, the scientific "proof" that there are two genders are...biased, to say the least. They've also been debunked for a while now. As in, they've been debunked since the start of written history, because "other" genders have existed since societies where formed. Christians colonisers paying scientists for studies proving that Christianity is right and Other Cultures are wrong (because other cultures do include "other" genders, and there were a lot more before Britain decided to murder, enslave, or refused human rights to anyone who didn't fit their binary) is not a reputable study, the same way the study that proved that vaccines cause autism isn't. If all this sounds like rubbish I just made up, it's because you haven't done any research on the subject.

It isn't about how the individual describes genders, it's how scientists describe genders. There is a set, defined rule for what a gender is within the scientific community. You are completely incorrect, and scientists will call you incorrect. This isn't an issue with my definition, it's an issue with your rejection of scientific definitions. This is exactly what I mean, I say "this is the science, you can look it up to confirm it" and people like you go "no it isn't because I don't want it to be". I'm sorry, but that's your own problem, not mine or science's. The fact that you can't accept that science doesn't agree with you, and the fact that you can't think critically about why you're adamant on sticking to these beliefs despite that, is your own problem and not that of whoever you discuss this with. There's only so many times people can repeat "this is the science" only to be met with "I don't want it to be therefore it's not" before people give up. 

Yes, exactly, that's how lying works. You think I'm making up being trans because we have different opinions on how important science is in a scientific discussion, therefore I'm lying because that's how words work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, NBpanda said:

I'm sorry that you chose to discourse the subject matter, however you also chose to comment on this post, so you can't really be that tired of it. Also, it's my life that's being discoursed about, I don't have the choice of not getting involved and you've proved that by your unnecessary comments. This was a positive inclusivity post, you brought the discourse. I also would have thought that if you've discussed the subject so much, you would have done the bare minimum research on it. That's the basic etiquette of having a discussion about something, is it not? Having your beliefs based on reputable sources is an important aspect to consider when having a discussion based on science.

Because if you'd actually been paying attention, the scientific "proof" that there are two genders are...biased, to say the least. They've also been debunked for a while now. As in, they've been debunked since the start of written history, because "other" genders have existed since societies where formed. Christians colonisers paying scientists for studies proving that Christianity is right and Other Cultures are wrong (because other cultures do include "other" genders, and there were a lot more before Britain decided to murder, enslave, or refused human rights to anyone who didn't fit their binary) is not a reputable study, the same way the study that proved that vaccines cause autism isn't. If all this sounds like rubbish I just made up, it's because you haven't done any research on the subject.

It isn't about how the individual describes genders, it's how scientists describe genders. There is a set, defined rule for what a gender is within the scientific community. You are completely incorrect, and scientists will call you incorrect. This isn't an issue with my definition, it's an issue with your rejection of scientific definitions. This is exactly what I mean, I say "this is the science, you can look it up to confirm it" and people like you go "no it isn't because I don't want it to be". I'm sorry, but that's your own problem, not mine or science's. The fact that you can't accept that science doesn't agree with you, and the fact that you can't think critically about why you're adamant on sticking to these beliefs despite that, is your own problem and not that of whoever you discuss this with. There's only so many times people can repeat "this is the science" only to be met with "I don't want it to be therefore it's not" before people give up. 

Yes, exactly, that's how lying works. You think I'm making up being trans because we have different opinions on how important science is in a scientific discussion, therefore I'm lying because that's how words work.

Wrong, most things we believe are completely subjective.

There is no right or wrong.

According to MY definition of genders, there are only 2, and biologists who say that there are more than 2 genders have a completely different definition of genders.

To me someone who is born with a penis is male, and someone who is Born with a vagina is female, and thats it there is nothing you can do to change your gender, at least in my opinion.

Edited by Fimion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Fimion said:

Wrong, most things we believe are completely subjective.

There is no right or wrong.

According to MY definition of genders, there are only 2, and biologists who say that there are more than 2 genders have a completely different definition of genders.

To me someone who is born with a penis is male, and someone who is Born with a vagina is female, and thats it there is nothing you can do to change your gender, at least in my opinion.

Then you are a science denier. Don't claim that your beliefs are based in Biological Facts when you openly admit that biologists prove you wrong. You refuse the science behind it but claim that your beliefs are based in science. Pick a side and stick to it, either your beliefs are scientific fact, or they're your opinion because you disagree with scientific fact. How can you not see the hypocrisy, or where the frustration arises for the people you discuss this with? How can you say the things that you do and claim you're not transphobic? That you're not disrespectful or insulting? Why even try to discuss the subject if you're not open to learning, or even accepting that science proves you wrong? You were the one to say it was biological fact, that was all you, but I'm the problem because I said that your comment was transphobic. Just because you were offended by being called out for your hypocritical nonsense doesn't mean that what you're saying isn't hypocritical nonsense.

To summarise:

You believe that trans people don't exist, that we're making it up and only pretending, but that calling you transphobic for these beliefs is incorrect. You have a deep misunderstanding of what the word "transphobic" means.

You claim that science supports there only being two genders. After being confronted, you claim science is wrong, then that science is divided on the issue, and then that science is subjective. You went from saying that science agrees with you, to that science essentially means nothing because "everything is subjective". You have a deep misunderstanding with how science works.

But all of this is my fault because I called your beliefs transphobic and bigoted. You can't even get your own beliefs right, but I'm the one who caused this? You decided to make a rude comment on an innocent post, but I'm the one being disrespectful?

Just say you're a transphobe that doesn't care about the science and be done with it, don't try to sugarcoat anything because clearly all you do is confuse yourself when you do. I'll keep believing in the actual science of it, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/31/2019 at 5:07 PM, Kilian Dermoth said:

Are you talking about this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtftZPL-k7Y

:lol:

Oh btw, I watched the link provided by the right wing youtuber, about how he wants his mind changed about the 2 gender issue. To be honest, going into it I was on the fence either way, but his reasoning was so bad and his inability to change his mind has swung me the other way. I watched another of his vids and its the same thing. He won't change his mind, he's not open minded whatsoever. He gets provided proof and just shoves it aside. Anyway, here is some insight of what I think is a "neutral party":


There are only 2 sexes, that is fact. This is defined by reproductive organs at birth, I guess. Not counting the extreme anomalities where people are born with both reproductive organs I guess.

 

But gender is something different. You need to have the sex present on legal documents and for stuff like bathrooms, but what "defines" male. Beards? drinking beer? driving fast cars? These are things we associate with men, and in turn could make people feel "manly" when having/doing those things. For people who are born male and feel these things, that's considered "normal". Other way around with women as well, with stuff like make-up, dolls and whatnot.

But I guess there is a growing group of people who feel like they've been put into these categories, but don't fit it. So maybe a girl likes fast cars and it makes her feel "manly". Current day society makes her feel weird and, well, you've seen the responses above. So maybe she hides this, but it just makes her "feel" manly and more towards the male side on the "gender spectrum"

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, by the way.

 

I also don't know what the solution would be for society. I guess the only thing we can do right now is not scrutinize people for feeling outside society norms, as this was the same for homosexuality not too long ago. Science has backed up that homosexuality is something that's normal in large groups of organisms in small spaces (like humans), since it occurred in over 1000 species of animals as well. So perhaps we can find something similar in animal behaviour as well in the future.

Allthough, for example, bathrooms specifically for "neutral" people could probably be a hassle. I guess some parts of society still need to refer to "sex" and not "gender".

Edited by RubySauce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, NBpanda said:

Then you are a science denier. Don't claim that your beliefs are based in Biological Facts when you openly admit that biologists prove you wrong. You refuse the science behind it but claim that your beliefs are based in science. Pick a side and stick to it, either your beliefs are scientific fact, or they're your opinion because you disagree with scientific fact. How can you not see the hypocrisy, or where the frustration arises for the people you discuss this with? How can you say the things that you do and claim you're not transphobic? That you're not disrespectful or insulting? Why even try to discuss the subject if you're not open to learning, or even accepting that science proves you wrong? You were the one to say it was biological fact, that was all you, but I'm the problem because I said that your comment was transphobic. Just because you were offended by being called out for your hypocritical nonsense doesn't mean that what you're saying isn't hypocritical nonsense.

To summarise:

You believe that trans people don't exist, that we're making it up and only pretending, but that calling you transphobic for these beliefs is incorrect. You have a deep misunderstanding of what the word "transphobic" means.

You claim that science supports there only being two genders. After being confronted, you claim science is wrong, then that science is divided on the issue, and then that science is subjective. You went from saying that science agrees with you, to that science essentially means nothing because "everything is subjective". You have a deep misunderstanding with how science works.

But all of this is my fault because I called your beliefs transphobic and bigoted. You can't even get your own beliefs right, but I'm the one who caused this? You decided to make a rude comment on an innocent post, but I'm the one being disrespectful?

Just say you're a transphobe that doesn't care about the science and be done with it, don't try to sugarcoat anything because clearly all you do is confuse yourself when you do. I'll keep believing in the actual science of it, though.

It is a biological fact that you are either born with a penis or a vagina, yes i know there are anomalies like Ruby said, but thats a different Story.

In my opinion there is no difference between Sexes and Genders. What you call Genders is what i call Gender Identities.

For me Transphobia means hating People who consider themselves Transgender, not disagreeing with them.

Kilian Dermoth likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RubySauce said:

 Oh btw, I watched the link provided by the right wing youtuber, about how he wants his mind changed about the 2 gender issue. To be honest, going into it I was on the fence either way, but his reasoning was so bad and his inability to change his mind has swung me the other way. So here is some insight of what I think is a "neutral party"


There are only 2 sexes, that is fact. This is defined by reproductive organs at birth, I guess. Not counting the extreme anomalities where people are born with both reproductive organs I guess.

 

But gender is something different. You need to have the sex present on legal documents and for stuff like bathrooms, but what "defines" male. Beards? drinking beer? driving fast cars? These are things we associate with men, and in turn could make people feel "manly" when having/doing those things. For people who are born male and feel these things, that's considered "normal". Other way around with women as well, with stuff like make-up, dolls and whatnot.

But I guess there is a growing group of people who feel like they've been put into these categories, but don't fit it. So maybe a girl likes fast cars and it makes her feel "manly". Current day society makes her feel weird and, well, you've seen the responses above. So maybe she hides this, but it just makes her "feel" manly and more towards the male side on the "gender spectrum"

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, by the way.

 

I also don't know what the solution would be for society. I guess the only thing we can do right now is not scrutinize people for feeling outside society norms, as this was the same for homosexuality not too long ago. Science has backed up that homosexuality is something that's normal in large groups of organisms in small spaces (like humans), since it occurred in over 1000 species of animals as well. So perhaps we can find something similar in animal behaviour as well in the future.

Allthough, for example, bathrooms specifically for "neutral" people could probably be a hassle. I guess some parts of society still need to refer to "sex" and not "gender".

Thank you for being open to learning (unlike that other commenter), and for taking the time out to consider both sides critically.

To begin with, science has concluded that there are more than two sexes, although I understand why most people don't know about it. Trans voices get silenced and transphobes deny it's legitimacy. There is more to sex than XX and XY, and being intersex is a lot more common than people think because a lot of people don't even know that they are. Being intersex can be as simple as unusually high hormones that have no effect on your life and you would have no way of knowing about unless you were tested for it. No one really knows what their chromosomes are unless they're tested for, and there's no way of telling just by looking at someone. Many people live their life as a cis person while having the "opposite" chromosomes. 

Secondly, while I understand the statement, what you're describing with the "girl who likes cars" sounds more like gender presentation. This is a more complex issue, as gender identity and gender presentation are two different things. A tomboy is a girl who presents masculine, which is what fits more with your example. From my experience, feeling non-binary has never been from recognising that the things I like don't align with what my birth sex "should" like, it's from experiencing the binary aspects of society and never feeling as though I fit into either of the two acceptable option.

I can also assure you that the number of trans and non-binary people isn't "growing", we are simply surviving more than before, and feel safer coming out and living authentically. It's a common misconception that people are more likely to "become trans" these days, when really the amount of trans people is staying the same, we're just able to be more vocal about out existence.

Regarding transness in other species, this has also been documented. Fungi have thousands of genders and sexes, bees have genders that only indicate their role within the hive, many types of mammal can change their outward appearance to be that of the "opposite sex", reptiles and fish completely switch sex and gender depending on what those around them need, even trees can switch sexes. 

This issue with these subjects is that all of this is documented, it's all researched and studies as best as scientists can while working with a lack of funding because they're "not important issues", but the people who would have to face the fact that they're wrong about it don't want to hear it, so pretend like it doesn't exist, so the studies get buried and forgotten and accessibility is lost because no one knows they exist to look for them.

Gender neutral bathrooms work just fine, it's cis people that make a fuss about them, like trans women using female bathrooms. People lie, fake evidence, and get one source of a singular trans person doing something wrong and use it to blanket every trans woman as a pervert, when all people want to do it use the toilet. All I want to do is be able to use the toilet while I'm out in town without having to feel disgusted with myself, and a neutral bathroom would do that, but everyone's so scared of cis men and people they perceive to be cis men to even consider that they're blowing everything out of proportion. No one can seem to think critically about the bathroom bans, or who is actually hurt by them, so they're called "unreasonable" and "unattainable" just because people can't stop bickering for 5 minutes to let me use to toilet in peace. If someone doesn't like the idea of neutral bathrooms then they don't have to use them, but because they think their opinion is relevant on a trans issue then actual trans people get silenced in favour of mainly cis women scared of sexism.

This is a really long message, but wait, there's more.

Regarding the right winger youtube video, you'll find that this is the case with a lot of their logic. Like the commenter above, they have difficulty keeping their story straight because they want to claim the science supports them to seem more credible, but as soon as you point out that actually science doesn't support them, they flip flop around trying to rake together some form of excuse. The above commentor decided to go with "science is subjective" after backtracking from "science is real and supports my side of the argument" to "science is real but there is not decisive conclusion to the studies yet". It just shows how little they know about the subject they so desperately want to discuss and argue about, and their complete lack of ability to both learn anything from their experiences and to admit they could in any way be wrong. Arguing with people who don't believe in more than two genders is honestly like trying to argue with a flat earther. The science is there, and it so obviously contradicts what they say, so they either claim opposing science is false, or that their argument based in science doesn't need a scientific explanation. It's completely ridiculous, and these are the kind of people trying to tell me that I don't deserve to exist as I am and that I'm making it up for attention, all while completely making up all their "evidence" for, basically, attention.

It's wild.

41 minutes ago, Fimion said:

It is a biological fact that you are either born with a penis or a vagina, yes i know there are anomalies like Ruby said, but thats a different Story.

In my opinion there is no difference between Sexes and Genders. What you call Genders is what i call Gender Identities.

For me Transphobia means hating People who consider themselves Transgender, not disagreeing with them.

You Are Denying Science And Claiming Your Opinion Is Based In Science But Also That Science Doesn't Exist How Can You Not See How Confused You Sound. Also Transphobia Isn't A Word That You Get To Decide The Definition Of And If That Offends You Then That Is Your Own Problem. You Are Incorrect About Everything You've Said So Far, Take The L And Leave.

Edited by NBpanda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, NBpanda said:

You Are Denying Science And Claiming Your Opinion Is Based In Science But Also That Science Doesn't Exist How Can You Not See How Confused You Sound. Also Transphobia Isn't A Word That You Get To Decide The Definition Of And If That Offends You Then That Is Your Own Problem. You Are Incorrect About Everything You've Said So Far, Take The L And Leave.

I never said that science doesnt exist, i just said that my definition of Gender differs from yours.

Anyway this is getting pointless so im just gonna stop posting now, good night.

 

Kilian Dermoth likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, NBpanda said:

To begin with, science has concluded that there are more than two sexes, although I understand why most people don't know about it. Trans voices get silenced and transphobes deny it's legitimacy. There is more to sex than XX and XY, and being intersex is a lot more common than people think because a lot of people don't even know that they are. Being intersex can be as simple as unusually high hormones that have no effect on your life and you would have no way of knowing about unless you were tested for it. No one really knows what their chromosomes are unless they're tested for, and there's no way of telling just by looking at someone. Many people live their life as a cis person while having the "opposite" chromosomes. 

 I can also assure you that the number of trans and non-binary people isn't "growing", we are simply surviving more than before, and feel safer coming out and living authentically. It's a common misconception that people are more likely to "become trans" these days, when really the amount of trans people is staying the same, we're just able to be more vocal about out existence.

 Regarding transness in other species, this has also been documented. Fungi have thousands of genders and sexes, bees have genders that only indicate their role within the hive, many types of mammal can change their outward appearance to be that of the "opposite sex", reptiles and fish completely switch sex and gender depending on what those around them need, even trees can switch sexes. 

 This issue with these subjects is that all of this is documented, it's all researched and studies as best as scientists can while working with a lack of funding because they're "not important issues", but the people who would have to face the fact that they're wrong about it don't want to hear it, so pretend like it doesn't exist, so the studies get buried and forgotten and accessibility is lost because no one knows they exist to look for them.

 Gender neutral bathrooms work just fine, it's cis people that make a fuss about them, like trans women using female bathrooms. People lie, fake evidence, and get one source of a singular trans person doing something wrong and use it to blanket every trans woman as a pervert, when all people want to do it use the toilet. All I want to do is be able to use the toilet while I'm out in town without having to feel disgusted with myself, and a neutral bathroom would do that, but everyone's so scared of cis men and people they perceive to be cis men to even consider that they're blowing everything out of proportion. No one can seem to think critically about the bathroom bans, or who is actually hurt by them, so they're called "unreasonable" and "unattainable" just because people can't stop bickering for 5 minutes to let me use to toilet in peace. If someone doesn't like the idea of neutral bathrooms then they don't have to use them, but because they think their opinion is relevant on a trans issue then actual trans people get silenced in favour of mainly cis women scared of sexism.



Okay, so I got kind of curious. You say there are more than 2 sexes, indicated by hormones. But in the end, even if I have a high number of female hormones in my body, I will still have a penis. How would this affect my sex? Excuse my ignorance, I honestly don't know.

Secondly, fair point about the surviving part. I also didn't mean that there are more per se, more that people are becoming more and more open about it. As well as surviving I guess, since "survival of the fittest" is barely applicable in human society nowadays.

Interesting points about species changing sexes, although I'm not sure how that is applicable to humans. These species changing sexes, as you say, is for convenience and changing their sex is usable. If a human changes from male to female, they can't suddenly carry babies. Humans changing sex is an issue with them not feeling right in their body, and the species you mentioned seem to change regarding to the needs of the survival of the species. I don't think that's really applicable.

Also, the bathroom issue is not exactly like I meant. For me, if someone was born female but transitioned to male and they use a male bathroom, that is not a problem. But lets take people that say they feel like neither gender. What bathroom would they use? What I think some people are afraid of, is that this opens a grey area where guys can just say they feel like a women at that moment and just barge into a female bathroom. This is just a benign issue on the surface, but this would open yet another door to men saying they feel like a woman and they enter sports competitions, where there are clear distinctions between male and female due to biological differences like upper body strength. Although on that issue, I recently learned about a south african athlete who was born with both genitalia, identified as a women and competed, but was forced to take hormone pills due to high levels of testosterone in her body which seemingly gave her an edge, so I guess we're already facing this issue...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, NBpanda said:

If Science Is Subjective, Then By Definition It Is Nothing More Than An Opinion. Therefore Science Wouldn't Exist Because Science Is Based In Facts And Opinions Are Not Facts. Only Use Words That You Know The Meaning Of Or You'll Just Keep Confusing Yourself.

Science is not subjective, but the definition of Gender is.

In many countries and on many legal documents Gender and Sex is the same.

And most countries dont even legally recognize more than 2 Genders.

 

Edit:

I just noticed that some Mod or Dev removed some comments, id really like to know why.

Instead of censoring People you could just tell them why you think they are wrong...

Edited by Fimion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright guys, this has been going on quite long enough...

I do feel that people are who they need to be, and must not be judged for who they are/identify as. However, in the course of this thread, there have been multiple rule 1 infractions in this thread, from both sides and quite frankly you guys have gone wildly off-topic regarding the suggestion itself, I also fail to see the relevance of such a lengthy discussion regarding gender and so on to be made in this particular thread, and furthermore on this game forum.

We strive to keep the forums positive and friendly, and as such have tried to limit sensitive topics that are potentially insulting to groups of people. Such responses and conversations hardly create a friendly and welcoming environment. 

As for the suggestion itself, it shouldn’t be too hard to implement but like someone mentioned it before, it isn’t a very pressing matter. You also make good points about clunkyness and we will certainly seriously consider it. I’ll give you guys a short time to respond to this post, and close the thread shortly after.

You guys are welcome to discuss privately if you wish, but I see no benefit to this continuing to be a public discussion for the community as a whole.

fiki574 and MephistoRoss like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am the member of the moderation team who hid some of the comments due to them being reported multiple times for being homophobic. We want this forum and the game itself to be as friendly and polite as possible, clearly those who reported these comments are offended by what was said and I acted upon that. I didn't post a comment here as I was trying to find the right words to explain as it has this is a sensitive subject, it doesn't matter what a person identifies themselves as, as long as they're happy and healthy.

NBpanda likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok so this is the last post im gonna write in this thread.

I absolutely believe that People should be who they want to be and i tolerate everyone who tolerates me.

I know that that this whole gender thing is a very sensitive subject matter, i was just trying to explain my point of view and not offend anyone.

Anyway i wish you all the best.

Edited by Fimion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.