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Suggestion His/Her -> Their

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8 hours ago, RubySauce said:

Okay, so I got kind of curious. You say there are more than 2 sexes, indicated by hormones. But in the end, even if I have a high number of female hormones in my body, I will still have a penis. How would this affect my sex? Excuse my ignorance, I honestly don't know.

Secondly, fair point about the surviving part. I also didn't mean that there are more per se, more that people are becoming more and more open about it. As well as surviving I guess, since "survival of the fittest" is barely applicable in human society nowadays.

Interesting points about species changing sexes, although I'm not sure how that is applicable to humans. These species changing sexes, as you say, is for convenience and changing their sex is usable. If a human changes from male to female, they can't suddenly carry babies. Humans changing sex is an issue with them not feeling right in their body, and the species you mentioned seem to change regarding to the needs of the survival of the species. I don't think that's really applicable.

Also, the bathroom issue is not exactly like I meant. For me, if someone was born female but transitioned to male and they use a male bathroom, that is not a problem. But lets take people that say they feel like neither gender. What bathroom would they use? What I think some people are afraid of, is that this opens a grey area where guys can just say they feel like a women at that moment and just barge into a female bathroom. This is just a benign issue on the surface, but this would open yet another door to men saying they feel like a woman and they enter sports competitions, where there are clear distinctions between male and female due to biological differences like upper body strength. Although on that issue, I recently learned about a south african athlete who was born with both genitalia, identified as a women and competed, but was forced to take hormone pills due to high levels of testosterone in her body which seemingly gave her an edge, so I guess we're already facing this issue...

Intersexuality isn't determined by sexual organs, the sex you're assigned at birth is (when the doctor goes "it's a boy/girl!, or they secretly take them away to have medically unnecessary surgeries without parents even giving consent). Intersexuality is determined by how easily you fall into what society has designated "male" and "female". This means that hormones, primary and secondary sex characteristics and any combination thereof can influence whether or not someone is considered intersex. It used to be considered "male and female sex characteristics" for a while when homosexuality was still considered a disease. Ignorance is ok, and I totally understand why most people don't know these things. This isn't something that get taught...anywhere without you having to go out of your way to find it, and even then there's so much misinformation from people who don't know that there is new science on the subject.

I also understand why some of my examples aren't exactly "transness" as we understand it in humans, however many of them are as similar as we can get with our current knowledge of gender across species. For example, plants can change gender whenever they want, many mammals just decide to present as the "opposite" gender without any particular reason that humans have figured out. It should also be considered that a lot of the trans experience is wanting to change sex, which is a step completely skipped by animals that can just change whenever they want. The ability to change sex can be considered inherently trans due to this.

Also as a side note, "survival of the fittest" wasn't really applicable to human society until recently with the rise in capitalism dominating things like the medical field, artificially inflating prices of medicine and medical care. There are so many documented disabled people in history that have been lovingly cared for by their community. It's a very recent phenomena that (physically) disabled people are seen as lesser due to their inability to work. (Mentally disabled people is a completely different story, but when you think fairies steal children, an autistic child suddenly seems a lot less friendly.)

And for the bathroom thing, that's my point. When have men done this? Is this a well known thing that men just barge in pretending to be women to perv on people? Is this such a normal occurrence? It's not, it's such a non-issue, but because a couple of people that did do it got media attention it's something that hinders progress for everyone. As someone who doesn't align with either binary gender, I'm forced to use whatever bathroom I look like I fit in, which is something that every trans person has to do regardless of if they're binary or not. A non-passing trans man won't feel safe in the male bathrooms so goes to the female ones, the same with non-passing trans women. This is where the misunderstanding lies with cis people. Trans people don't have to luxury of betting our lives every time we want to use the bathroom. Any day we do, we risk running into someone who thinks we don't belong there and is willing to get violent over it, either by calling security or trying to "fix the problem" by themself. This isn't a decision that we can take lightly, and it's honestly one of the more painful experiences of being trans in public. No one is likely to refer to us by gender while we're out in public aside from cashiers and waiters, but we have to intentionally misgender ourselves to use a toilet just so we don't risk our safety.

The fact is, trans people still don't feel safe enough existing authentically and loudly as trans to do the things people fear cis men will try to do, and we call all see that and we all say it, but cis people don't listen to us because they don't actually care about our voices. Cis people decide everything about our lives, even when we can use the bathroom.

6 hours ago, Fimion said:

Science is not subjective, but the definition of Gender is.

In many countries and on many legal documents Gender and Sex is the same.

And most countries dont even legally recognize more than 2 Genders.

 

Edit:

I just noticed that some Mod or Dev removed some comments, id really like to know why.

Instead of censoring People you could just tell them why you think they are wrong...

The comments were removed because they were transphobic. That's not censorship, please learn the definition of censorship.

Secondly, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, the definition of gender is scientific. Science determines what "gender" means. It's all science. If you don't like it, take it up with scientists. Because they're the people that choose what it means. 

And as I said, do you want a hint as to why must countries don't legally recognise more than two genders? It's something I've already mentioned in a previous comment! Thanks for reading!

7 minutes ago, RayG said:

You can be whatever you want to be just dont force us to pretend as well.

As YOU can call that you are offended by his/her, i can also be offended that you want me to degrade my mentality to the level that you want to live in.

** On the other side when we have reached the game level that its playable for everyone and smooth, you can burden us with these trivial matters.

Thanks for the input, but science doesn't agree with you. If you can't be bothered to do any research before making these sorts of claims, I don't want to argue with you as you clearly don't care enough to get the truth. Have a nice day! 

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1 hour ago, Ultrakool said:

Alright guys, this has been going on quite long enough...

I do feel that people are who they need to be, and must not be judged for who they are/identify as. However, in the course of this thread, there have been multiple rule 1 infractions in this thread, from both sides and quite frankly you guys have gone wildly off-topic regarding the suggestion itself, I also fail to see the relevance of such a lengthy discussion regarding gender and so on to be made in this particular thread, and furthermore on this game forum.

We strive to keep the forums positive and friendly, and as such have tried to limit sensitive topics that are potentially insulting to groups of people. Such responses and conversations hardly create a friendly and welcoming environment. 

As for the suggestion itself, it shouldn’t be too hard to implement but like someone mentioned it before, it isn’t a very pressing matter. You also make good points about clunkyness and we will certainly seriously consider it. I’ll give you guys a short time to respond to this post, and close the thread shortly after.

You guys are welcome to discuss privately if you wish, but I see no benefit to this continuing to be a public discussion for the community as a whole.

Thank you for responding, and thank you for taking my suggestion seriously. I understand I wasn't exactly chill when it came to some of my responses and I understand why I need to be held accountable, I can only hope the mods understand why I felt the need to respond the way I did. While I appreciate the rules and the enforcement of them, this thread has been riddled with transphobic comments since it was posted almost a week ago. I appreciate that the mods are busy, however I do feel as though the reports of transphobia weren't addressed as quickly as they could have been for such a serious topic, especially as transphobic comments are still being made by new commenters even today. 

Again, I appreciate everything the mods are doing and I understand why these things take time, but personally I don't think it was particularly fair to have almost a week of unwarrented transphobic comments on my post regardless of if I had responded to them or not.

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While @Kiwi and @Ultrakool properly explained the reasoning behind the moderation actions taken in this discussion, I would like to add to the reason as to why gender-neutral pronouns are pretty much nonexistent in this game. Keep in mind that we are by no means the original developers of BattleForge, and we have written none of the text within the game (excluding some new feature text and the news section). BattleForge was released over a decade ago, and development started even further down in history by the inherently German EA Phenomic development studio. It may seem to not have been so long ago, but 2009 was a vastly different time when it comes to the public awareness, attention and consideration of gender-, social- and personal identification in society. Sad as it is, back then the widespread consideration of gender-neutrality used in the English language just wasn't as present as it is and should be nowadays, let alone when it needs to be localised by a small, arguably under-budgeted and non-English development team. BattleForge really isn't what we'd call a well-translated game and there are a vast multitude of spelling, grammatical and stylistic mistakes in the English localisation that arose from a simple lack of English expertise within the translations from German. I don't blame Phenomic for this, EA would be another matter, but that's not relevant right now.

Of course, this is not an excuse for the in-game text to be the way it is; it's already often frustrating to read due to translation errors and typos alone, even without considering the importance of gender-fluidity and its representation within media. Considering every bit of text is directly imported from a time where social media was only just starting to take off, public exposure was only a fraction of what it is today, and careful translation, localisation and representation was an absolutely underwhelming supported development aspect by publishers and studios alike (again, sadly), it's not at all uncommon to see texts phrased this way, especially for Phenomic's size at the time. Non-diverse and inconsiderate as it is, especially by today's standards, this is the reason why the in-game text is hard to read from time to time.

Though we do acknowledge this point and will for sure take it into consideration further down the development road, it is by no means something that we should currently divert current workforce to that could be of use to work towards a stable release build of the game. However, we're all for inclusiveness here at the SR team and when we get to it, we will surely look into making the game more accessible, inclusive and abiding by contemporary representation standards, as it should be!

 

Regarding the whole feud that broke out here... I do apologise for not addressing this earlier aside from having comments removed that were very clearly in conflict with Rule 1. I get that this is a highly sensitive subject and all that, and both ends of the argument going on here have strong opinions, but there's really no need to pressure or accuse one another of anything. I'm confident that matters like these should be able to be discussed on our forums, provided that it's done in a civil and respectful manner where nobody has to feel targeted or pressured. Clearly this does not seem to be the case in this thread, which has only turned the discussion sour. I would therefore also ask you all to continue this conversation in DM if you feel like it needs to be addressed further among each other.

Under no circumstance should this or any other suggestion discussions be dismissed as insignificant, unimportant or trivial; leave the development priority to the team here. There's a reason we're open for suggestions and every single suggestion is free to be posted around here. The importance thereof to you personally should be no reason to dismiss a suggestion in the first place. Try to be considerate of this in the future, remain civil, respect the viewpoint and suggestion in the first place, and take some time to evaluate your post before hitting that reply button; there really never is a need to cause an uproar, to blame, target or publicly denounce.

Ultrakool, MephistoRoss and Upoo like this

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22 minutes ago, MrXLink said:

While @Kiwi and @Ultrakool properly explained the reasoning behind the moderation actions taken in this discussion, I would like to add to the reason as to why gender-neutral pronouns are pretty much nonexistent in this game. Keep in mind that we are by no means the original developers of BattleForge, and we have written none of the text within the game (excluding some new feature text and the news section). BattleForge was released over a decade ago, and development started even further down in history by the inherently German EA Phenomic development studio. It may seem to not have been so long ago, but 2009 was a vastly different time when it comes to the public awareness, attention and consideration of gender-, social- and personal identification in society. Sad as it is, back then the widespread consideration of gender-neutrality used in the English language just wasn't as present as it is and should be nowadays, let alone when it needs to be localised by a small, arguably under-budgeted and non-English development team. BattleForge really isn't what we'd call a well-translated game and there are a vast multitude of spelling, grammatical and stylistic mistakes in the English localisation that arose from a simple lack of English expertise within the translations from German. I don't blame Phenomic for this, EA would be another matter, but that's not relevant right now.

Of course, this is not an excuse for the in-game text to be the way it is; it's already often frustrating to read due to translation errors and typos alone, even without considering the importance of gender-fluidity and its representation within media. Considering every bit of text is directly imported from a time where social media was only just starting to take off, public exposure was only a fraction of what it is today, and careful translation, localisation and representation was an absolutely underwhelming supported development aspect by publishers and studios alike (again, sadly), it's not at all uncommon to see texts phrased this way, especially for Phenomic's size at the time. Non-diverse and inconsiderate as it is, especially by today's standards, this is the reason why the in-game text is hard to read from time to time.

Though we do acknowledge this point and will for sure take it into consideration further down the development road, it is by no means something that we should currently divert current workforce to that could be of use to work towards a stable release build of the game. However, we're all for inclusiveness here at the SR team and when we get to it, we will surely look into making the game more accessible, inclusive and abiding by contemporary representation standards, as it should be!

 

Regarding the whole feud that broke out here... I do apologise for not addressing this earlier aside from having comments removed that were very clearly in conflict with Rule 1. I get that this is a highly sensitive subject and all that, and both ends of the argument going on here have strong opinions, but there's really no need to pressure or accuse one another of anything. I'm confident that matters like these should be able to be discussed on our forums, provided that it's done in a civil and respectful manner where nobody has to feel targeted or pressured. Clearly this does not seem to be the case in this thread, which has only turned the discussion sour. I would therefore also ask you all to continue this conversation in DM if you feel like it needs to be addressed further among each other.

Under no circumstance should this or any other suggestion discussions be dismissed as insignificant, unimportant or trivial; leave the development priority to the team here. There's a reason we're open for suggestions and every single suggestion is free to be posted around here. The importance thereof to you personally should be no reason to dismiss a suggestion in the first place. Try to be considerate of this in the future, remain civil, respect the viewpoint and suggestion in the first place, and take some time to evaluate your post before hitting that reply button; there really never is a need to cause an uproar, to blame, target or publicly denounce.

I fully understand the reasoning behind it and I appreciate that the issue isn't at all pressing, however I was under the impression that the suggestion board was for any suggestion and not just ones we considered important and vital, and I'm a little frustrated that peope keep telling me that it's not an important issue when I never implied that it was. Perhaps this was a miscommunication on my part, because I never meant to imply that I thought this was anything more than a quality-of-life adjustment for the release of the full game. 

And I also appreciate the stance of the team and the want to create a safe environment for cival discussion on subjects such as this, however almost a full week of silence on such a serious issue isn't something that inspires trust. Regardless of how I responded, 6 days of the transphobic free-for-all is a lot for someone's mental health, especially as the reports started early on. The long silence on the issue was one of the reasons I felt the need to defend myself and while I understand that was still my choice to make, I hope this helps you understand the reasoning behind my actions. I know I should have handled it better, but it's very important to note that regardless of my responses, the transphobia on the thread is completely unacceptable and should never have taken so long to get around to addressing.

Regardless of how safe and accepting the team wishes the forum and game to be, I feel completely unsafe and unwelcome due to the passivity of the mods until now (alongside the hostility of the community, however that isn't the point I'm trying to currently make). I don't feel as though the issue was handled as well as it could have been, and I must emphasis that I was reporting the transphobia within the day of the original comments being posted, and it was the lack of response from the team that caused me to not bother with reporting the other comments. It should also be noted that it feels, from my point of view, that the topic still hasn't been properly assessed as there are still transphobic comments on this thread that haven't been taken down despite being just as bad as the ones that were deleted. I don't feel as though I'm being taken seriously, even though mods are saying that it's a serious issue. 

I can't begin to express how deeply upsetting this experience has been, and how upset I am with how it was handled. I've tried to keep the emotion out of this particular response as best I can, but I don't want the emotional toll it's caused me to be lost because of decision.

Thank you for your time. 

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I think we should thank the team as they spend their free time on this and that they have brought the game as far as they have. I can hear about the comments that you have a lot of feelings about it, and of course it should be respected in a fair way. We should all respect and learn from each other, even though that we have different views. I hope that everyone gets a good playing experience, with the best regards.

Fimion likes this

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