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Balancing the game  

253 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like us to do some balance changes before the release/wipe?

  2. 2. Where you prefere discusion about the proposed values to be



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6 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

I'd say that is straight up untrue. Sure, the environment gets more volatile the less people know what they are doing but there will still be prevailing approaches and metas.

Let's take that as a thought then. High level players consider Aggressor a bit too weak because it is 150 power bundled into a single unit that can be played around. Low level players consider Aggressor OP because it knocks their units around. Then lets say the high level players, which would be in charge of balancing in this example, say that Aggressor needs a bit of a buff, maybe reduce its cost a bit. Now it's more viable on the top end and sees occasional play. While suddenly it is completely out of control on the low end because all the new people are mesmerized by the constant CC for a lower cost.

This sort of thing can happen with any card or strategy. You have to take that into consideration unless you want to risk turning certain levels of competition into a serious cesspools. Top level players think about top level competition first and foremost. But a healthy game shouldn't be out of control on any skill level.

That's not exactly the case with aggressor. It's not conseidered too weak in higher rankings, it's more of a unit with a special task wich can also be done by other units (countering L units). It is used as L counter wich is costly but therefor perma CCs things that could otherwise get annoying for stonekin like skyfire drakes, war eagles, mounties...

Anyway imo the main reason why balancing is impossible for lowranks is that there is no meta. A pure fire deck in higher rankings is mostly the same except 2 or 3 cards. That's just the deckcomposition endless players found out to be the strongest in endless games. Now pure fire in low ranks might be something totally crazy and unefficent, maybe it has T4, maybe it has no spells at all, just 20 units...how are you gonna balance THAT? Players in these ranks don't know about hte countersystem, voidpower, how losing a well or an orb makes you lose power permanently. Once they learn those things they normally move to higher ranks.

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Posted (edited)

Then add to my banner that tells you about the different strength of cards based on pve and pvp a basic info about pvp / a pvp tutorial ( the old tutorial is sadly currently hidden away)

smth along the lines:

 

welcome to pvp 

Just some important notes for your first game Skylord:

- losing orbs and wells is a permanent loss of power, try to protect them

- dying cards or structure‘s energy slowly returns into your power pool

- destroy all entities of your opponent to win

good luck

 

And below a button ok (skip)

Edited by LEBOVIN
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1 hour ago, Cocofang said:

I'd say that is straight up untrue. Sure, the environment gets more volatile the less people know what they are doing but there will still be prevailing approaches and metas.

Let's take that as a thought then. High level players consider Aggressor a bit too weak because it is 150 power bundled into a single unit that can be played around. Low level players consider Aggressor OP because it knocks their units around. Then lets say the high level players, which would be in charge of balancing in this example, say that Aggressor needs a bit of a buff, maybe reduce its cost a bit. Now it's more viable on the top end and sees occasional play. While suddenly it is completely out of control on the low end because all the new people are mesmerized by the constant CC for a lower cost.

This sort of thing can happen with any card or strategy. You have to take that into consideration unless you want to risk turning certain levels of competition into a serious cesspools. Top level players think about top level competition first and foremost. But a healthy game shouldn't be out of control on any skill level.

It’s just a matter of knowing the counters to certain strategies. It’s the concept of play and counterplay, if you are not using the correct counterplay concept you will lose a fight plain and simple. For example if your units are knocked around if the power of aggressor is 150,160 or 170 you will still lose the engagement because you are using the wrong strategy. One can also say that the person playing aggressor deserve to win that fight as he’s using the right counterplay to your units. As long as there exists a counterplay I don’t think it should be a point to try to balance according to If people play in a way that they are “playing into their counters”.

Put it this way, if you spam 5 small units and get countered by 2 windweavers squad + Hurricane does that make Hurricane op? 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Pritstift said:

I absolutely agree. Same counts for Deldrimor :

No words :-D :-D :-D

No argumentation? No words :D Why am i even giving you my attention.You are absolutely wrong in an balancing discussion. You're pvp rank is: 0.

You can balance your t4 as for example your OP lost spirit ship though in an extra Threadh. I agree to that.

Edited by Deldrimor
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20 minutes ago, Deldrimor said:

No argumentation? No words :D Why am i even giving you my attention.You are absolutely wrong in an balancing discussion. You're pvp rank is: 0.

You can balance your t4 though in an extra Threadh. I agree to that.

didntr u say u are speedruner aswell? how can u talk about speeruner can only balance t4? the most important part is t1+2 in speedruns. there u can get fast times. if u get your t4 everything is "easy" and u cant not rly be faster than evceryone eles. i wonder how u can call yourself speedrunner. lock at your speedrun decks. most of the times there is like 1-2 t4 card in it. and like 10-15 t1+2. as i writ some posts ago i think best balancing would be if there is a comunity of both sides 50/50 and total 11 players talking about. 5main PVE player and 5 main PVP players + Kubik.

Like this there can be a fair conversation what soulb be balancd. if the dicus end 50/50 kubik can decide what hes doing. if the discus end like 30/70 he need to do what the 10 players talk about. 

 

witch of all the players should be in this 10players i think its the best way if u can advertise yourself if u want to do this and if u get like 20 of then a survey can start and all players can vote for the guys.

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1 hour ago, Deldrimor said:

No argumentation? No words :D Why am i even giving you my attention.You are absolutely wrong in an balancing discussion. You're pvp rank is: 0.

You can balance your t4 though in an extra Threadh. I agree to that.

 I’m not blaming any one person but it seems like you haven’t read my previous post. Let’s not make personal attacks here. This balancing thread is for pvp and pve alike, let’s try to argue constructively and sensibly 

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Posted (edited)

Didnt u read my argumentation before Wanky? 

Yes i was an active speedrunner back in the days but again:

 

It does not make any sense to balance speedrunning because you can live with an slower time because you have the same chances.

 

You are ONLY slower after for example an phasetowernerf. Thats all.

Meanwhile Nature t1 only profit in pvp from that nerf so after that nerf and a few tweaks of nature t1 we hopefully can see more nature players.

Its only one example of many.

Edited by Deldrimor
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Posted (edited)

honestly as common ground is hard to find here, @Kubik can u deliver the pvp and pve specific balancing for cards? If yes, even if it takes a long while, the remaining issues like how to make it visible on the cards or make it new player friendly are easily manageable later but the conflict between Pvp and speedrunners would be resolved 

Edited by LEBOVIN

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7 hours ago, wanky said:

True amii make every PVE easyer. I can totaly recomment if u search Teammates who play with u over and over again. with this mates u can play the maps in the way u want. sometimes also we play maps in casual way just for fun (or making challanges with for example: 1 only fire 1 only t3 one isnt allowd to use t2/3cards) expertmaps arent hard (exept of blight) like this we get our challange. off corse with no neutral cards (yes t3 only max and no MO or Lord Cyrian)

If u have a stock of players u like open up a discord server u can talk with each other. PVE is still a TEAMPLAY game. u will see it is mutch mutch more fun to play with "frends" 

Thx.

Possible we didnt play togeter yet. usualy i jon random CPVE maps with standart or Expert difficuld.

i can talk for my team that all of us act like this. maby not givaway card for free but help players finisch the map in casual style. (the team is btw. Kyuubii, Pritstift, Treim, Bango, LEBOVIN, (derNewYork, iameinheld), and me

exactly what  i do i have a help discord etc, and any new friend i play with to skip these style of easy decks

26 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

honestly as common ground is hard to find here, @Kubik can u deliver the pvp and pve specific balancing for cards? If yes, even if it takes a long while, the remaining issues like how to make it visible on the cards or make it new player friendly are easily manageable later but the conflict between Pvp and speedrunners would be resolved 

before i leave [to much work]

 

it always will be. in albion online you have pvp vs pve vs gatherer.. etc etc

 

here you have speed runner vs pve vs pvp .. nerf one and the others will nerdrage... ^,^

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2 minutes ago, Dion said:

 you have speed runner vs pve vs pvp .. nerf one and the others will nerdrage... ^,^

Not sure if u got my point, so just for clarification: I propose a solution in which a  card has 2 versions 1 for pvp and one for pve, that way the balancing of the modes DOES NOT interfere 

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Kubik has already stated earlier in this thread that they will not be adding two different versions of the same card. Even if that were possible, it would be a lot of work. We had this suggestion before, which Phenomic also rejected, and afterward Phenomic rightly deferred to PvP balancing over PvE when cards overlapped since balancing in PVP is substantially more important and has a greater impact on game play. I can't remember more than few cards that Phenomic balanced specifically for PvE, and each of these were the most egregious examples such as LSS, enlightenment, and Amii Monument, and even those they only slapped-on band-aid fixes. That is not surprising when they only balanced 4-8 cards every few months and PvP always needed, and still needs, changes. With a more active Dev team it seems it can change.

Kubik I throw in my opinion that you should go ahead with a discord server, at least among the PvP players who are competent and understand theorycrafting. You can even give us some starting guidelines on what type of issues you/the team want us to focus on to begin with. 

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55 minutes ago, LEBOVIN said:

Not sure if u got my point, so just for clarification: I propose a solution in which a  card has 2 versions 1 for pvp and one for pve, that way the balancing of the modes DOES NOT interfere 

Didn't read all the comment just posted and replied to the one who quoted me or mention me.. if you are proposing a solution i didnt read it yet, sorry, doing youtube/helping player in game/ real life stuff. just so many stuff to keep track ill read your later once i have enough time, i came for the quick reply XD

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4 hours ago, SunWu II. said:

That's not exactly the case with aggressor. It's not conseidered too weak in higher rankings, it's more of a unit with a special task wich can also be done by other units (countering L units). It is used as L counter wich is costly but therefor perma CCs things that could otherwise get annoying for stonekin like skyfire drakes, war eagles, mounties...

Anyway imo the main reason why balancing is impossible for lowranks is that there is no meta. A pure fire deck in higher rankings is mostly the same except 2 or 3 cards. That's just the deckcomposition endless players found out to be the strongest in endless games. Now pure fire in low ranks might be something totally crazy and unefficent, maybe it has T4, maybe it has no spells at all, just 20 units...how are you gonna balance THAT? Players in these ranks don't know about hte countersystem, voidpower, how losing a well or an orb makes you lose power permanently. Once they learn those things they normally move to higher ranks.

It was just taking your example to make the point clear. Apparently unsuccessfully so. Balancing isn't about making everything equally strong or thinking of every possible curve ball. That's a complete misunderstanding of what balancing is supposed to achieve in games. Attempt that sets you up for failure. That is true in every game. I would much more say that balancing in PvP is the attempt to make it so no strategy or no single mechanic (unit, spell, etc. in this case) is overbearing at some level of play first and foremost. While everything can probably be countered through some means, there shouldn't be a scenario where one approach is too notably dominant. Secondarily you can then look into making unused cards or strategies a bit more attractive.

2 hours ago, Ultrakool said:

It’s just a matter of knowing the counters to certain strategies. It’s the concept of play and counterplay, if you are not using the correct counterplay concept you will lose a fight plain and simple. For example if your units are knocked around if the power of aggressor is 150,160 or 170 you will still lose the engagement because you are using the wrong strategy. One can also say that the person playing aggressor deserve to win that fight as he’s using the right counterplay to your units. As long as there exists a counterplay I don’t think it should be a point to try to balance according to If people play in a way that they are “playing into their counters”.

Put it this way, if you spam 5 small units and get countered by 2 windweavers squad + Hurricane does that make Hurricane op? 

Generally agreed but you get too hung up on the example. The aim of PvP balancing should be that no particular card or strategy is too overbearing. Even OP combos or cards can have counters they get beaten by but that is not an argument against them being OP. It's about how dominant something is at certain skill levels overall. If people were to just throw around statements like "lol if you get beaten by X, just play Y" then you might as well not ever change anything at all because that's probably true for everything.

14 minutes ago, WindHunter said:

Kubik has already stated earlier in this thread that they will not be adding two different versions of the same card. Even if that were possible, it would be a lot of work. We had this suggestion before, which Phenomic also rejected, and afterward Phenomic rightly deferred to PvP balancing over PvE when cards overlapped since balancing in PVP is substantially more important and has a greater impact on game play. I can't remember more than few cards that Phenomic balanced specifically for PvE, and each of these were the most egregious examples such as LSS, enlightenment, and Amii Monument, and even those they only slapped-on band-aid fixes. That is not surprising when they only balanced 4-8 cards every few months and PvP always needed, and still needs, changes. With a more active Dev team it seems it can change.

And for what it's worth the game saw a steady decline and died. So ... might not be the best idea to take too many approaches from the original Battle Forge onboard. Maybe taking care of both PvE and PvP is an idea worth looking into after all. It's generally a good advice to be critical of the "Well, it's always been like that" mindset, which I would consider especially true in this case.

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6 hours ago, WindHunter said:

Kubik I throw in my opinion that you should go ahead with a discord server, at least among the PvP players who are competent and understand theorycrafting. You can even give us some starting guidelines on what type of issues you/the team want us to focus on to begin with.

I was maybe not clear, Discord option is my idea, not team idea. If I count the votes correctly it is 4 to 1 for forum from team members. I will still probably try the discord option, even thou it have bit less votes and see how it goes. Few peoples already said they change their opinion.

I repeat main advantages for me:
scrolling options
channel control - 1 channel per change, that I can create, on forum I can not create sections...
permission control - I can not ban someone from topic on forum. I can ban instantly without any secondary consequences, so only people that follow the rules will be there. On forum BAN would mean also game ban, so it would need moderation (that is work, pressing BAN is not :P ) and consequences would need to be carefully considered, on separate discord, consequences are minimal.
no guidelines needed - on separate discord I can have strict and simple rules, with only 1 punishment BAN from that server, so significantly limiting access to balance changes in early phases.

And again if it will go forward under my lead, it will not be PvP only :P how many times I need to repeat that?

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12 hours ago, Deldrimor said:

No argumentation? No words :D Why am i even giving you my attention.You are absolutely wrong in an balancing discussion. You're pvp rank is: 0.

You can balance your t4 as for example your OP lost spirit ship though in an extra Threadh. I agree to that.

Just for your information - i dont care for LSS. We dont use it for our speedruns. LSS is mainly interesting for battleground to speed it up (still depending which enemy you have to face). Also you refering to my rank level in PVP? Shows again that you dont know anything. In the past i played over 600 PVP-Games in 2vs2. And it shows that i am absolutely right in balanching disucssions - there needs to be somebody who has the motivation (up to a certain point) to show how wrong your argumentation is (mainly for PVE).

 

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I also want to change my opinion about Discord. Not because I think Discord is a better place for this but because I want Kubik to at least test it so that we can see how it works :)

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Pritstift said:

Just for your information - i dont care for LSS. We dont use it for our speedruns. LSS is mainly interesting for battleground to speed it up (still depending which enemy you have to face). Also you refering to my rank level in PVP? Shows again that you dont know anything. In the past i played over 600 PVP-Games in 2vs2. And it shows that i am absolutely right in balanching disucssions - there needs to be somebody who has the motivation (up to a certain point) to show how wrong your argumentation is (mainly for PVE).

 

I know that Lost Spirit Ship spam is only used on BG speedruns.

Over 600 games in 2v2 doesnt say anything. The amount of games you played doesnt say anything. We can organize some 2v2 matches if you want but make sure you have a good mate for you because you would need it big time against tops3cret and me.

In fact i was #1 in 2v2 for a longer time in the original bf.

Also 1v1 isnt the same as 2v2. So your pvp rank is still: 0. So that shows once again that you have no idea about pvp.

But lets go lets play some 2v2. Show me your imba 2v2 skills after your 600 games and your big experience about it 😂

 

Its really a shame that this threadh is mainly about the few speedrunners out there which really shouldnt get any attention about balancing. Speedrun is only a implemented side mode after years. There was no single balancing done for speedrun. It should never get balanced. The devs in the old bf knew why. Because it doesnt make any sense.

 

We could balance pvp now, fast and so good.

 

 

I only can appeal to the devs and especially to kubik:

Please continue the common line of the original bf like it was the old devs intentions.

 

Now im out here.

Edited by Deldrimor
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On 7/23/2019 at 7:30 PM, Cocofang said:

I am against committing to balance changes before a full release and all wipes/resets being done. You would be allocating your time and resources to this instead of actually getting the whole thing done. Even one hour of dev time spent on balance instead of release is a setback in my book.

I don't really care where dev time is spent after the game is launched and everyone gets to keep their progress. But release should be the absolute top priority right now. And diversion should be avoided.

As for balance changes overall: I am for separating PvP and PvE balance wise. These two modes are played so fundamentally different, they shouldn't be affecting each other. Basically, if balance changes are necessary in either PvP or PvE, ideally there should be a respective PvP and/or PvE version of a card that is appropriately adjusted. I assume the majority of balance changes would be PvP centered anyway. So I would hate to see PvE decks getting messed with because a card needs PvP changes. And vice versa ofc.

12p maps were fucking awful in the original Battle Forge. Too many disconnects or player failures.

Would it be possible to "split" the 12p maps though? I don't know the name right now but one of them is just the same map three times. Would it be possible to just make it a 4p map by removing the 12p intersections?

As for the other one that is three intertwined maps, would it be possible to split that one into three 4p maps and just automate the events that depend on the (now gone) other maps? Basically hard-scripting them so people can just play one map.

Separate balancing sounds good in theory but is impractical. Mostly because it confuses people even more than the game currently does. That's why it's better to keep the stats for both PVE and PVP the same. The good thing about PVE is that in theory you can buff underused cards to serve more of a purpose in PVE matches.

Example: for some reason Master Archers are nerfed. Northguards on the other hand are never used in PVP, so they can be used by PVEs instead if necessary. This is just an example though.

On 7/25/2019 at 1:01 PM, Pritstift said:

Please define what is balance in battleforge for you? With the existing cards and how they work you can create a lot of different tactics - so why i should want to have balance changes in pve? I dont see any balance problems in pve - many players here try to see problems/balance problems but what about to accept the current mechanism and in consequence how the game works. Is this not the reason why you like to play battleforge?

I will give you some examples:

 

-Amii-Monument - i have no problem to play with or without Amii-Monument - for speedruns for sure i will use it - but is this really a balance problem? For speedruns you can use every existing option to make the run faster...Also for beginners this card can be helpful to finish expert maps. So some players here think that the same content will be better just after changing Amii-Monument? This makes no sence for me to be honest. To playblight or rpve with or without Amii-Monument will not change the balance - expert maps are still easy to play without Amii-Monument. So you should accept the Amii-Monument like it is and you can use it if you want or dont use it if you dont want.

 

-SOW - this card is perfect to make the game fast and it does fit to many different deck-colour combinations. So is it really balanching to change this card e.g. to 3x fire orbs? The consequence will be that less players will use SOW and just because some players think it is cool to play pure fire we will not have a better balanching. You should try to accept this card like it is and you can use it if you want or dont use if dont want. Also sow is a big help when you play with randoms players that have no clue about any void manipulation...

 

For me all existing maps are easy to play - so it makes no sence for me to change some important cards just with the idea to bring more balance and indireclty making the maps somehow harder...The maps are still easy to play even with a changed Amii-Monument , SOW....Afer you may have the idea to change other cards like cultist masters , englightment, batariel....

You just destroying the mechanics in this game we love it for...better concentrate on totally useless cards to bring more options for strategies in pve/pvp instead of killing core mechanics of the game...

And to finish - what are normal speedruners? I am also a normal speedruner - just with a lot of experience. After you performed the changes i am sure that the same names still will be on top of the rankings - if you know how the game is working you also know how it will work without e.g. Amii-Monument or SOW.....

"Of course, all time records for some maps should be count from last balance/map change patch" - this is somehow stupid - or not? How you want to know that a tactic of a player was affected by the last change???? So e.g. every month there is a balance change - so you have to play fastetst time again and again even if there was no change for the tactic???? And to be honest - some speedruns are hard to perform to get really the best time - i would not be motivated to repeat this every month again and again...

If the amii monument is doing exactly as intended answer following questions pls:

Why is it that if you play a 4 player map in single player that the other starting locations have no orbs? And the other orbs on the map are usually guarded by L and XL creatures?

Easy answer: because each tier gets exponentially more powerful. So gaining an easy way to get an additional tier level lowers the map difficulty. And on Soultree this even leads to winning the game instantly.

The card should be reworked to require 4 neutral orbs to allow 5 multicolor splashes. This would indirectly buff pure color decks because you could mix in different 1-orb t4 abilities to support your pure color creatures instead of breaking map difficulty on several maps.

On 7/25/2019 at 2:33 PM, LEBOVIN said:

[...]

Nobody forces you to play them all the time right now.

Why does it sound good to you to force others stop playing what they like? [...]

Everybody stating stuff like this needs to be banned from development processes. This statement is utter ignorance.

On 7/25/2019 at 6:35 PM, Pritstift said:

So you just care for pvp and not pve? In my opinion this is not the right way. Look at the votings - where are the big number of pvp-players that are waiting for the reset? Why they did not vote yet? I think the active community that also takes care of the game is small. So it would be a good idea also to take pve/rpve and also speedrunners into consideration for balance changes....if not you will reduce the active community even further.

So for what reason the votings are running right now if decisions are already fixed by Kubik? Also i am sure we understand his reasoning but he also understands our reasoning? You should read more carefully - because if we would not understand his reasoning in some points we would not be able to discuss right now - right here. Anyway - go on - seems like all is said.

I doubt that there is a large number of people "waiting for reset". There are new players every now and then who try PVP, get smashed by the old school players and leave.

The game has a very, very steep learning curve with all the different colors, splashes, XL units, tiers, void/power management and so on that only a small part actually stays and plays. 

There are quite a few balance issues, and some stuff like counterplay against certain units is just so counter intuitive that I doubt it's healthy for the game. The whole stonekin faction is pure cancer for healthy gameplay as an example, at least if played with half a brain cell. 

On 7/26/2019 at 11:51 PM, Loriens said:

Friend, it's okay when you return in your old game with some new patches.
For example I returned 2 times in Starcraft 2 - and Blizzard even removed some units while I was inactive. Some of their balance changes was huge, but I never saw someone who left the game for this reason. It's even better for the game to have fresh blood in balance and tactic.


Main idea of RTS is to find out winning strategy and improve it. So new players will just try to invent strategy, like it always was in any RTS.
And it's funniest part of all RTS game, much better than microcontroll)
Green nether warp gives constant heal, so Shadow Mage spam+Green Nether warp is really overpowered against Pure Nature and too good against some other decks.

Indeed. The longer patches are absent the more repetitive strategies and abuse/exploits are found and used in matchmaking. This usually leads to most players who disagree with that leaving the game. This also applies to the stuff I wrote in the paragraph above.

22 hours ago, Deldrimor said:

Repeating the same again and again. So again: EA never had the intention to balance stuff for speedrun. Never ever. The balancing focuse was always on pvp. So in consequence this line must be continued as common practice.

2.) When pvp will get active after the reset we will outnumber the low amount of speedrunners.

7.) I really absolutely dont see the point why you should be part of an voting about a pvp card, when you have exactly 0 idea about pvp. Now i have idea about speedrunning and i can repeat again: balancing doesnt make any sense in speedrunnings.

8.) So which map isnt possible to finish in normal pve? Whaaat? Indeed the normal pve needs some balancing. Nerfing too strong cards like Lost Spirit Ship that is getting abused in spam easily, amii monument where you can easily overgo one full tier like wtf? Its monumentcheating! Shadow Phoenix + Embalmers and so on. Pve is way too easy, especially in t4. Thats a problem you know. Do you even see it as a problem as a speedrunner? I guess nope. Why not? Simply because you are a speedrunner and dont want to miss such OP stuff for your faster time you want to have. 

 

 

In the end i was one speedrunner, i was and i am an top 10 player in pvp, i am an normal pve player. Now i vote for that only such players with this high amount of expertise should attend on the balancing discussion otherwise its a bit jokeless.

 

If just all can vote for the balancing, well it will be most of the time catastrophical i can say it already now. The result will be a "cat in the bag". It actually can be very good or very bad.

 

 

And somewhere you've said its not good for the weaker players when nerfing mortar. Believe me if we are nerfing mortar everybody only will profit. At guns of lyr at deff position for example it still would be strong enough even for an casual player that wants to beat the map on expert. So youre argumentation belonging to that is really jokeless. 

I do agree on these points - but I disagree on point 2 - I doubt there will be a large amount of people to increase the community for longer time.

The issue with old games is that newcomers rarely have the chance to catch up on the old seasoned players skill wise. The longer a game is left unpatched, the more abusive the meta becomes and the more exploits are found and used to win.

BF already suffers from its steep learning curve even before playing the first match (hundreds of cards of 4 different main colors + 3 splash decks + neutral cards, how to build a working PVP deck, how to manage power, how to manage units etc.) and then there is the fact that you need to upgrade your cards to even stand a chance in pvp matches at all.

This leads to early frustration and makes people abandon the game. I encounter new players every now and then in matchmaking, and they're gone after quite short time from my impression. 
The game was made by Phenomic, and Phenomic was widely known for making RTS games who were at the border of frustratingly hard to play. 

About the card nerfs itself: 

I do agree that some cards need buffs and some might need nerfs, but in general I would appreciate more variety in the viable core cards. The game has dozens of cards that could be used for the same role but aren't because some other card is stronger. Not a little bit stronger, but so strong that it hurts. Great examples were shown in RadicalX  underwhelming Top50 topic. 

Having more alternatives automatically leads to a more healthy enviroment because 

a) players have more options to choose from (more happy players because they can use their favorite unit X more frequently)
b) games are more interesting to watch because you see more varied decks
c) certain decks may get buffed because they can mix unit types more frequently

Kilian Dermoth and Chibiterasu like this

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1 hour ago, DarcReaver said:

If the amii monument is doing exactly as intended answer following questions pls:

Why is it that if you play a 4 player map in single player that the other starting locations have no orbs? And the other orbs on the map are usually guarded by L and XL creatures?

Easy answer: because each tier gets exponentially more powerful. So gaining an easy way to get an additional tier level lowers the map difficulty. And on Soultree this even leads to winning the game instantly.

The card should be reworked to require 4 neutral orbs to allow 5 multicolor splashes. This would indirectly buff pure color decks because you could mix in different 1-orb t4 abilities to support your pure color creatures instead of breaking map difficulty on several maps.

 

Playing without Amii makes no big difference - it is just slower. After you have T3 you can finish nearly everything on a pve map - with ashbone pyros, magma hurlers, swamp drakes, cultist masters, Mo, Brannoc etc. supportet by healing spells and spells like motivate, infect, frenetic assault, revenge, nether warp etc. you will also have no problems with L or XL creatures. And for sure amii-monument lowers the map difficulty but that was the idea of EA. If you do argue in this direction you need to nerf a lot more cards - or how it can be possible that batariel is finishing a whole base of XL creatures? You are so focused on the amii-monument just because of soultree? Soultree is one of the easiest maps you can play - finishing the last base to get the last orb is really no problem with T3 - it is all just about time.

And like mentioned from other players multiple times - nobody is focing you to use amii-monument. You can play soultree without it. So the players that want to use it have fun and the players that dont like to use it also have fun. For speedruns it gives you an advantage to be faster - but this is just one litte piece of the whole strategy. I think you have much bigger problems with balancing in pvp - but all are focused on this amii-monument that is mainly interesting for pve. The game is great with and also without amii-monument and you also get no problems if a another player is using amii-monument in a pve-match.

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4 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

In general I would appreciate more variety in the viable core cards. The game has dozens of cards that could be used for the same role but aren't because some other card is stronger. Not a little bit stronger, but so strong that it hurts. Great examples were shown in RadicalX  underwhelming Top50 topic. 

Having more alternatives automatically leads to a more healthy enviroment because 

a) players have more options to choose from (more happy players because they can use their favorite unit X more frequently)
b) games are more interesting to watch because you see more varied decks
c) certain decks may get buffed because they can mix unit types more frequently

/sign.

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Posted (edited)

@Kubik
I propose to rebalance Nightshade Plant - awful twilight version of Grimvine with worse stats and useless ability.
It costs more than Abomination which has better stats and very decent ability;

It has no Siege like Grimvine, it has no good ability.

It requires 2 fire 2 nature orb.
So - what's the purpose of this card?

6 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

The card should be reworked to require 4 neutral orbs to allow 5 multicolor splashes. This would indirectly buff pure color decks because you could mix in different 1-orb t4 abilities to support your pure color creatures instead of breaking map difficulty on several maps.

Decent idea.
Btw, looks like it's not BUG on Soultree :D
Moon says: summon 5 orbs. Orbs. Not monuments.

Edited by Loriens
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21 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

If the amii monument is doing exactly as intended answer following questions pls:

Why is it that if you play a 4 player map in single player that the other starting locations have no orbs? And the other orbs on the map are usually guarded by L and XL creatures?

Easy answer: because each tier gets exponentially more powerful. So gaining an easy way to get an additional tier level lowers the map difficulty. And on Soultree this even leads to winning the game instantly.

The card should be reworked to require 4 neutral orbs to allow 5 multicolor splashes. This would indirectly buff pure color decks because you could mix in different 1-orb t4 abilities to support your pure color creatures instead of breaking map difficulty on several maps.

Everybody stating stuff like this needs to be banned from development processes. This statement is utter ignorance.

Because in the tokens are sometimes exclusively assigned to players. For instance play King of the giants, and only the tier 1 orbs are missing but all other ones are there.

if amii had a 4 orb requirement the card would have absolutely no use for speedrunning lol

and on soultree you already have t4 for the last camp anyway, so it should be easily doable 

last statement: I am not a developer, secondly when you care for preserving speedrun tactics you ignore pvp but it is vice versus just the same, depends on your priorities - but banning people’s opinions is not this forums intention

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

Because in the tokens are sometimes exclusively assigned to players. For instance play King of the giants, and only the tier 1 orbs are missing but all other ones are there.

if amii had a 4 orb requirement the card would have absolutely no use for speedrunning lol

and on soultree you already have t4 for the last camp anyway, so it should be easily doable 

last statement: I am not a developer, secondly when you care for preserving speedrun tactics you ignore pvp but it is vice versus just the same, depends on your priorities - but banning people’s opinions is not this forums intention

Making it 4 orbs is not for speedrunning but making it an options for players to play more creative decks.  Full color t4 + an additional 5th color for healing, CC or different support units etc.

You said yourself you don't need it for speed running, it only lowers the time for finishing certain maps, which makes the use of this card questionable anyways.

Or switching orbs to feature a larger variety of multi orb units throughout the game.

Edited by DarcReaver

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10 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

Making it 4 orbs is not for speedrunning but making it an options for players to play more creative decks.  Full color t4 + an additional 5th color for healing, CC or different support units etc.

You said yourself you don't need it for speed running, it only lowers the time for finishing certain maps, which makes the use of this card questionable anyways.

Or switching orbs to feature a larger variety of multi orb units throughout the game.

How is the use in speedrunning questionable right now , if IT SPEEDS UP - that’s what speedrunning is about 

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