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Kubik

Balance changes Balance changes to game

Balancing the game  

270 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like us to do some balance changes before the release/wipe?

  2. 2. Where you prefere discusion about the proposed values to be



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12 minutes ago, Kubik said:

so you even agree that card that make even bigger difference that amii moument would be "compliant with the rules"
"Why do u guys keep coming up with this exaggerated example" isn't that obvious? because amii monument on soultree do exactly the same

Yes. But I don’t request to introduce any card

We are going circles here, Loriens should know best that the difficult part and all the action takes place before u reach that point of the game in soultree where you build the amii. It pretty much only saves you clearing one annoying „rpve like camp“ you would need to build an attack force for otherwise

Edited by LEBOVIN

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and you saing that camp can not make a time difference between 2 speedrunners, because all speedrunners would clear it in exactly same time? Or that camp can make a difference, because there is many t4 units and because of that there can be multiple strategises that will differ in precision of execution and times

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11 minutes ago, Kubik said:

So you would like us to create card that kill everything on the map so you can be first on leaderbors if you manage to play it fastest, because no one expecting that card to exist when they was creating the rules so it is fine to add it later, rules will be the same, and players that do not want to use that car will not be forced to, unles whey will want to get competitive times...

I really dont understand the discussion about soultree and amii-monument. I have the same opinion like Lebo has.

What about other maps? It is ok for guns of lyr just to finish the 2 main camps and trigger the final attack wave? So we skip all the mechanics with Kobold-Techniki. It is ok for KOTG to change the way of Rogan and Jorne? Is it ok for Sunbridge to switch the gate every 30 seconds and therefore avoid big incoming? Is is ok for crusade to change the way of the magma hurlers? Is it ok for a alot of maps to block the income so that no new income will spawn? I dont see a big difference to soultree - for soultree we just use Amii to speed it up. And to be honest - who is running hundres of runs soultree for gold-farming? It that map really that important? I never farmed soultree because there are a lot of other maps that are more fun and better to farm gold.

Also amii-monument is not that powerful that the map after you build it will be an auto-win. First of all you need to get 3 orbs to build it and after you still need to be able to finish the map in the right way...For speedrunning amii-monument is just a card that you will use to finish the map in the fastet way - and for this reason this card is great. Before amii-monument we were playing most time with englightment - this card is even more powerful - with this card you can spawn every card independend from the orb colours you have build . You can get a T4 unit just with 3 orbs - T3 still has powerful spells to support this T4 Unit...But this is the nice thing about battleforge and speedrunning - i can use such cards to finish a map in a really fast way. At the same time this cards are also really good for beginners and less experienced players to have fun with the maps (also on expert level) without train a map every day.

Better concentrate really on the broken cards that could make pvp more balanced and also pve more interesting - nobody is asking for a card that is killing everything on the map:-D

 

 

Also you should take into account that Skylords Reborn seems to have a small active community. Or why there are not much votes until now for really important decisions? So the future changes should go in this direction to make the game more fun and add new content to increase the active community again. I dont think that you will get a bigger community just with nerfing / "balance" amii-monument or sow...e.g. still hoping that we may get hardcore/hard mode for pve-maps in future.

 

2 minutes ago, Kubik said:

and you saing that camp can not make a time difference between 2 speedrunners, because all speedrunners would clear it in exactly same time? Or that camp can make a difference, because there is many t4 units and because of that there can be multiple strategises that will differ in precision of execution and times

This camp maybe can make a difference - but still there will be 1-3 tactics that will result in the fastest way with time. Like Lebo said - more important is the start of the map - amii is just the final building to build - but if you are slow before amii-monument it will just help to finish the map but not to get a good time in comparison to other players that know a better tactic for the start of the map. So dont focus just on amii-monument - it helps to finish map - but before you have to reach the point to be able to build it.

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2 hours ago, Chibiterasu said:

 

"Also for beginners this card can be helpful to finish expert maps" Beginners shouldn't really be able to beat expert maps, should they? They are called "expert" for a reason...

Of cause for an expert they are easy to beat. When you know how and what cards are usefull for that map. But like I said a beginner shouldn't be able to beat them as well just because of 2 or 3 cards. When a person is a beginner and he jumps into a mission at the highest difficulty, he should get stomped, that's good game design. There's no use in getting better in this game when you can beat everything without even knowing what 90% of the cards do.

I wouldn't call it a mechanic when certain things can compensate your lack of skill :D 

Are you really playing a lot of pve? Because i am 100% sure a beginner will not be able to finish a lot of maps ( e.g. blight, guns of lyr, nightmare shard etc.) just because having amii-monument or enlightment in his deck.

Why should expert maps just should be for experts? This makes no sence - also experienced beginners should get in touch with this maps and there should be cards that can help them to play it more like in a fun way without training every day. Also i dont think that this cards can totally compensate skill - i played thousands of pve games and still i often see players that have a so called "overpowered" deck but still failing around.

The difference is that an experienced/good/skilled player can use this cards much more effective and get much more advantages from it. So i am sure i can finish maps faster/more effective without amii-monument in comparsion to a beginner/less experienced player that will use amii-monument. He will be happy that he somehow was able to beat the map and i am already thinking what i have to change for the next run to make it even more effective. And this is for me a good mechanic.

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Can we stop spamming the thread on this subject so we can talk about other things without it getting drowned by this? Kubik has already said he is making the change, and you guys are just throwing a lot of words at the wall saying the same thing other and other again without understanding his reasoning. 

Kubik I am suddenly understanding your reasoning for discord a lot more.

Also, from earlier, will you be able to add/remove unit abilities like Steadfast, Swift, and Slow easily or is that too complicated for now?

Loriens and SunWu II. like this

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4 minutes ago, WindHunter said:

Can we stop spamming the thread on this subject so we can talk about other things without it getting drowned by this? Kubik has already said he is making the change, and you guys are just throwing a lot of words at the wall saying the same thing other and other again without understanding his reasoning. 

Kubik I am suddenly understanding your reasoning for discord a lot more.

Also, from earlier, will you be able to add/remove unit abilities like Steadfast, Swift, and Slow easily or is that too complicated for now?

Well so why discuss this at all if Kubiks decisions are final already.

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2 hours ago, Loriens said:

I do think in this thread we do not talk about really huge balance changes, which can completely change whole balance in Battleforge.
We are talking about obvious problems, mostly about PvP, like Phase/Mortar and green Nether Warp.
I meant that if balance changes somehow affect speedrun tactic, speedrunners in other game usually simply find out new sequence for best time.

So you just care for pvp and not pve? In my opinion this is not the right way. Look at the votings - where are the big number of pvp-players that are waiting for the reset? Why they did not vote yet? I think the active community that also takes care of the game is small. So it would be a good idea also to take pve/rpve and also speedrunners into consideration for balance changes....if not you will reduce the active community even further.

11 minutes ago, WindHunter said:

Can we stop spamming the thread on this subject so we can talk about other things without it getting drowned by this? Kubik has already said he is making the change, and you guys are just throwing a lot of words at the wall saying the same thing other and other again without understanding his reasoning. 

Kubik I am suddenly understanding your reasoning for discord a lot more.

Also, from earlier, will you be able to add/remove unit abilities like Steadfast, Swift, and Slow easily or is that too complicated for now?

So for what reason the votings are running right now if decisions are already fixed by Kubik? Also i am sure we understand his reasoning but he also understands our reasoning? You should read more carefully - because if we would not understand his reasoning in some points we would not be able to discuss right now - right here. Anyway - go on - seems like all is said.

Edited by Pritstift
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I mean the whole balancing discussion started because some people want every card to be viable (to an extend) in pvp (not that many also wanting it for pve) and achieving this by nerfing the currently viable ones.

So far only the supposedly far smaller pve community has partly voiced disapproval about their beloved strong card option‘s demise. 

I wonder why for instance the plenty of pvp fire mains do not say anything about the by non fire pvp players demanded nerfs for example for thugs

___

what about we take a different approach and do try to balance by buffing the weaker choices to some extend instead of weakening the currently strong choices.

in a pvp scenario both parties would benefit from the aligned strength and in pvp more options become viable but the old one not per se dismissed 

Edited by LEBOVIN

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5 hours ago, Kubik said:

amii in soultree is BUG :P and will be fixed at some point

I disagree. It's not a bug it is a logical consequences of introducing a card that lets you build your own orb. It is a legit orb, it should count as a legit orb for all intents and purposes. It is the expected behavior. I am telling you that if you change it so the amii orb doesn't count on that map anymore you would get people reporting THAT as a bug. Because it would make no sense. So what, the amii orb works consistently exactly the way you expect it to work EXCEPT for that one map? That's arbitrary and non-transparent balancing.

Speedrunning is always about min-maxing and it comes down to the most optimal cards used in the most optimal times.

You could make the same argument for Enlighten, a card that was in the game since the beginning. It allowed you to skip LOADS of hurdles on multiple maps.

It's just how these cards work. How they are supposed to work. How they are expected to work.

10 hours ago, Kubik said:

"game mode specific balancing" NO even if it would be possible (which I really doubt) I am against it, it would make the game only more confusing, because which numbers you would see on the card?

I mean, just conceptually, it's not hard to come up with a solution. The real question would be on the technical side.

So just as a concept, first you have to decide which modes is the base one, PvE or PvP. Let's take PvE. So. Every card exists first and foremost in it's PvE form. That's how you get it from the booster. That's how it shows up in your collection by default. That's how it looks by default.

When creating a deck you can check a "PvP" box. There is also such a "Show PvP versions" box for your collection. If checked you now see all your cards as per usual but the ones that have PvP specific adjustments have a little * at the end of the name. Every change that was made to them is highlighted with a different text color so you can immediately tell which part is different. If possible you could maybe even switch back to the regular "PvE" version by mousing over a card and pressing Alt. So by spamming Alt you could directly compare the two version.

This does introduce an additional burden of knowledge if you want to play both modes. However I would argue the benefits of such an approach would outweigh that. You could theoretically make every card interesting for both PvE and PvP, something that is definitely not the case right now. You would also be very flexible with balancing. PvE and PvP have vastly different needs. You could cater to both of them without affecting the other mode. You would never run into a scenario where you risk making a card OP or trash in one mode by adjusting them with the other one in mind. You would also never create conflict between the PvE and PvP parts of the community that goes like "WOW! My card is now trash because it got changed for that other mode that I don't care about!" or "Playing my mode is boring now because that card that got changed for that other mode that I don't care about made it so OP for mine that you almost have to use it!".

So, if it is possible from a technical standpoint, balancing PvE and PvP separately would have the benefits of:

  • flexibility in catering to the specific needs of both modes
  • having every card be usable and interesting in both modes
  • not affecting one mode when balancing a card for the other
  • keeping the dedicated communities out of each others hair when cards get balanced for them
13 minutes ago, WindHunter said:

Can we stop spamming the thread on this subject so we can talk about other things without it getting drowned by this? Kubik has already said he is making the change, and you guys are just throwing a lot of words at the wall saying the same thing other and other again without understanding his reasoning. 

Kubik I am suddenly understanding your reasoning for discord a lot more.

"People are disagreeing! Shut it down! Why won't anyone shut it dooooooown?!?"

What else is there to discuss here? If anything the answer if balance changes should be made before the full release was already set beforehand. According to Kubik they have literally nothing else to do right now because they are not getting enough issue reports from the community and development is almost at a stand still. So apparently there is no downsides to investing resources into balance changes right now.

8 minutes ago, Kubik said:

I posting in game that people should vote, but still less than 5% of players that was in game in last few days voted :(

What kind of participation percentage were you hoping for?

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and again what about maps that are both PvP and PvE at same time?, and no one of you mentioned NPCs using same units so changing unit that is played only by PvP players, can affect game of PvE players even if they do not use the card.

9 minutes ago, Cocofang said:

What kind of participation percentage were you hoping for?

100%? :thinking: seriously? I do not know :P after the previous result I rather try to not expect anything, but for the first one maybe 60%+ :thinking:

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28 minutes ago, Kubik said:

and again what about maps that are both PvP and PvE at same time?, and no one of you mentioned NPCs using same units so changing unit that is played only by PvP players, can affect game of PvE players even if they do not use the card

You can simply introduce multiple versions of one unit as npc for the pvp npc mode as there are in the map editor already available. 

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Generally:

  • Every day some new players from old EA Battleforge join Skylords Reborn. Would be nice, if we could tell them "The game mechanics are still the same"
  • Would be good, to not make battleforge more complicated by unnecessarily changing it into pvp/pve abilities. This helps new players
  • Card changes could satisfy some PvP players, but could also make some old players skeptical

Personally:

  • Mixed PvP/PvE maps sounds really cool to me, but I am not PvP player, so I can not tell :)
  • I think, many players are new. Maybe it is even the majority. They are maybe to shy to write in the forum
  • I think, many people avoid surveys, because they get often harass by surveys on many websites and with many emails

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30 minutes ago, Kubik said:

and again what about maps that are both PvP and PvE at same time?, and no one of you mentioned NPCs using same units so changing unit that is played only by PvP players, can affect game of PvE players even if they do not use the card.

100%? :thinking: seriously? I do not know :P after the previous result I rather try to not expect anything, but for the first one maybe 60%+ :thinking:

The first issue you describe is only applicable in custom maps, no? Every map that is inherent to the game is either strictly PvE or PvP, never both. And if these custom maps are different, you could let people decide whether PvP or PvE rules apply to them. Basically a tag system. And NPCs on maps are subjected to the overarching rules. If it's a PvE tagged map, they work under PvE rules (in that case, every scenario and rPvE map would be tagged as "PvE"). If it's PvP tagged, they use PvP rules. Again, whether it is even possible from a technical standpoint is a different topic, but purely conceptually speaking it seems simple. Reality might differ, because of coding shenanigans but nobody knows that yet.

I'm gonna be a real cheeky brat and turn what you said before around on you, don't let it sound too mean in your head. It's teasing a bit but still true :P

You don't really have anything else to do right now with the game because you don't get reports for issues you can fix, right? So why not look into the possibility of making separately balanced cards for PvE and PvP? Might as well. Just to check if it's possible to split them like that. Might be interesting. Might be a place to get a deeper understanding on how the game works. In my opinion that would definitely be a project worth spending time on instead of waiting for a report to pop up.

Development seems to be in a very tough spot right now. Can't keep improving servers because of lack of reports. Can't release because of lack of polish. Players are less engaged because everything will be wiped. Players expect a reasonably well running game that is "fully released". Caught between a rock and a hard place. Gotta find some ways to get people reporting and make it as quick and easy as possible.

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I have to agree with Halis

34 minutes ago, Halis said:

Generally:

  • Every day some new players from old EA Battleforge join Skylords Reborn. Would be nice, if we could tell them "The game mechanics are still the same"
  • Would be good, to not make battleforge more complicated by unnecessarily changing it into pvp/pve abilities. This helps new players
  • Card changes could satisfy some PvP players, but could also make some old players skeptical

Personally:

  • Mixed PvP/PvE maps sounds really cool to me, but I am not PvP player, so I can not tell :)
  • I think, many players are new. Maybe it is even the majority. They are maybe to shy to write in the forum
  • I think, many people avoid surveys, because they get often harass by surveys on many websites and with many emails

Maby shy isnt the right word. Usualy when i find a bug i tell it lebovin because I am ashamed of my english. Maby it would help to get German asswell for report bugs, u will see there will come a lot of new bug reports writhen in german. 

 

I think the best way to get no anger of player on devs would be if get seperatet cards like cocofang have say.

 

In the end i need to say somefing more: why the fuck a DEV isnt Neutral in discusions? As dev u shoulb be neutral for all, if not its just like a little mouse vs. somefing big they will never be able to beat.

 

at least there is somefing more that pvp players sould know: just because u never see a card in PVE game it dont have to be Speedruners dont use them. For example Morthar is good for a solide defence on some maps. Phasetower helps maby on some maps to get a camp (and yes the atk range is also important) Green netherwarp i see more as a PVE card, the blue one is "usless" on most PVE strats but the green one helps a lot, also for some speedruns. 

 

 

About the discusion where to talk about changes. in my view discord is maby better, pick 7/9/11 players from both camps (PVE/PVP 50/50) to get a good discusion. There are also PVP players doing speedruns asswel (like Kyuubii). Not picking just random players soulb be clear. from both camps player that are in leaderboards is the right way. 1. u know them a bit 2. they know the cards better than everyone eles 3. i think almost all of the top leaderbord are able to speak english to get a discusion in discord. like this u actually also can use the voice from discord. then u only need to writh down the best reasons why balance or not. 

 

greez

 

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"simply", "tagged", "simple", "coding", "Development" are we speaking about same things? :thinking: we do not have source code for the game so there is no coding, and nothing simple, we just changing 1s to 0s or vice versa to change how the game works.

"So why not look into the possibility of making separately balanced cards for PvE and PvP?"
1.) I do not want to have PvP and PvE versions
2.) "https://trello.com/c/Xje123W7/15-100-understand-the-bf" count that under "100% understand the BF" labeled with "Reverse Engineering"
3.) so I actually doing that a lot of time :thinking: not going to count it right now, but I may be close to 2% and so far answer is no even if I would want to

"The game mechanics are still the same" not with the version I was plain when I seen BF last time under EA's lead

"Can't keep improving servers" why not another thing I am doing when I wait for reports speeding up things that take less than 0,01% of server time :P because I like speeding things up

"Gotta find some ways to get people reporting" what about balance improvements? :thinking:

"german" I can not read it at all, and someone decide that everythin everything will be english only, even before I know about this project

"why the fuck a DEV isnt Neutral" ehm, what?

"discord" I still not yet decided on that because so far forum is winning and much less people that I was expecting vote so far

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Nobody should be afraid of judgement because of the way they write in English lol

I can recommend https://www.deepl.com/translator

for quite good translations.

—— 

wanky did expect you not to balance or rule out changes based on your opinions 

(which is probably a misconception cause whenever I say Kubik i mean MrXLink cause he is decision maker and ofc Kubik is free to express his opinion

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In my point of view the opinion of the devs should count more than new player's opinion. I would recommend the folowing order:

  • Devs and Community Managers
  • Player's who made really usefull suggestions in the past in the forum (like Treim, who wrote a lot of tutorials in the forum and made really good suggestions)
  • Highly skilled players, Speedrunners and Top PvP Players (like LEBOVIN and HighTech)
  • Players who are playing for a longer time, but are not really good at it
  • Players who started recently playing

(categorisation is left to the devs impressions)

3 hours ago, LEBOVIN said:

wanky did expect you not to balance or rule out changes based on your opinions 

Dont worry, if Kubik would not care about the community's opinion, he would not have created this topic. You can just explain, why even Santa can be usefull in some speedruns :) 

Edited by Halis
felkin and Loriens like this

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@wanky Kubik is very neutral.

A few things to make clear:

- Phasetower and Mortar must be nerfed for pvp. We cant take the 5-10 speedrunners of this game into balancing just because they dont want to finish a map a few seconds or minutes slower than before. After the nerf it still would be useable for all of you rare speedrunners out there. Trust me. 

- Nether warp green is clearly a glitch. There is no single intention in the cardtext to be like that.

- Original Battleforge balancing focuse was everytime mainly on pvp and this common practice must be continued.

- We cant discuss forever for a card like thugs that clearly just needs an easy and fast HP nerf to be fine. We cant discuss forever just because there are how many speedrunners out there? Maybe 8 or so, just because a few of these 8 do have the opinion that cards should not be balanced forever and the other few do want an extra balancing for pvp and an extra balancing for speedrun just because they dont want to be slower than before.

 

-Balancing is absolutely not a serious matter in speedrun. Everyone have the same chance. Its mainly only all about speed. But balancing is a very serious matter in competitive pvp. Please now understand this fact.

 

Edited by Deldrimor
Loriens and felkin like this

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6 hours ago, Halis said:

Santa can be usefull in some speedruns

oh thats why he is in 100 decks :D

6 hours ago, Deldrimor said:

there are how many speedrunners out there?

Look at the leaderboards :thinking: there may be more active speedrunners, than PvP players :P because PvP players say they will not play until wipe, because they need all cards fully upgraded for PvP....
and still only 53 people voted YES :(

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18 hours ago, Cocofang said:

I disagree. It's not a bug it is a logical consequences of introducing a card that lets you build your own orb. It is a legit orb, it should count as a legit orb for all intents and purposes. It is the expected behavior. I am telling you that if you change it so the amii orb doesn't count on that map anymore you would get people reporting THAT as a bug. Because it would make no sense. So what, the amii orb works consistently exactly the way you expect it to work EXCEPT for that one map? That's arbitrary and non-transparent balancing.

Just a quick note:

You aren't able to teleport your units to Amii-Monument when you use Retreating Circle. So it seems like in this case Amii-Monument doesn't count as a legit orb. Pick your bug ^^

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7 hours ago, Kubik said:

oh thats why he is in 100 decks :D

Look at the leaderboards :thinking: there may be more active speedrunners, than PvP players :P because PvP players say they will not play until wipe, because they need all cards fully upgraded for PvP....
and still only 53 people voted YES :(

Well pvp is pretty dead for now for some reasons, yes. But this would change drastically after the reset. 

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3 hours ago, Chibiterasu said:

Just a quick note:

You aren't able to teleport your units to Amii-Monument when you use Retreating Circle. So it seems like in this case Amii-Monument doesn't count as a legit orb. Pick your bug ^^

Well cause retreating circle only teleports to active tokens and since the amii does not exist on the map as token (these are orbs that are placed on the map in map editor) it doesn’t work. On soultree it looks for active spheres and amii provides one, so it counts.

both not bugged 

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Totally agree with pabi. I am playing with friends because of the good old times and we are playing coop only and developing ourselves. I our community will immediate lose interest in playing a game if you do a wipe. Why you want it to do anyways? Ive heared about only from this thread. It could help the players to show such information in the game news.

We prefer to play coop pve and campains and never do pvp. We would love to get new content like new cards or maps in the future. Or to get Random Quests generated in the PVE mode. 

Please do not wipe :( we are farming our dailys and some of us are so proud about their shaman..

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