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ndclub

Removing Upgrade System from PVP

294 posts in this topic

EDIT: After additional consideration and desire to compromise, I am changing my new suggestion to keeping upgrades in PVE. However, when a player starts a PVP match I suggest that all cards be upgraded to U3 for its duration. I apologize for taking so long to edit the OP with updated suggestion and causing much confusion. Currently charges are not affected by this idea.

For justification of my suggestion, much of it is littered throughout the thread and can be summarized as those who want a sense of progression can continue to upgrade their cards, those that want to jump straight into PVP can. It also allows new players to not have an unnecessary handicap when first testing their skills against other players.

I understand that first release of the game will not have any major changes but nothing stops us from discussing and having a successful roadmap for future changes. If you disagree with the updated suggestion, I would be happy to hear reasoning. Please lets keep the discussion logical and keep opinions to a minimum. If you love upgrades in PVP, please explain to us why it is best for the game.

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[quote='ndclub' pid='2188' dateline='1435343312']
[b][u]Suggestion: [/u]Remove all upgrades from game and all cards immediately start off as U3 (upgrade level 3). [/b]

[b]PVE maps will instead of having tokens and upgrades as reward will have one preselected card per mission difficulty and preselected BFP amount. [/b]
[/quote]

Maybe still let every card start at U1 (so you don't remove the upgrade system completely, but you just change the way of getting them) and instead of giving a card that is already U3, give the player the upgraded card equal to the difficulty of the map, for example: breeding grounds U1 if you complete Encounters on easy, BG U2 on advanced, U3 on expert mode. This would still force players to play PvE and will reward those who are actually good and not force a player to go grinding in rPvE.


Sorry for bad English ;)

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[quote='ndclub' pid='2188' dateline='1435343312']
[u]Upgrade System Pros[/u]
-A player has an additional sense of progression similar to RPG
-Rewards those who spend more time in game
-Traditional method in the unchanged Battleforge experience
-Rewards PVE playtime more than PVP (this could also be considered con)
-Can be source of pride for those who enjoy showing off how much they have worked

[u]Upgrade System Cons[/u]
-Biggest power separation between new player and veteran
-Adds significant grinding time to achieve viable decks
-Causes players to stick with fewer decks than they would like
-We cant carry over our upgrades we already worked towards to BFReborn
-Inventory upgrade tab and upgrade rewards from map often confused as cards owned
-Random PVE rewards can cause a player to achieve nothing for play
-Victorytokens, battletokens, and honortokens are all arguably unnecessary and add complexity, sometimes confused by new players as BFP
-Almost forces some players to play maps and modes they would prefer not to play
-Not a system shared by any other RTS and very few cardgames
-Can confuse new players
[/quote]

I would simply go with giving more tokens on pve maps , since that would reduce the amount of work + some features not shared with other games IMO are good. The faster upgrade system would best almost all if not all of cons

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[quote='JoseAlmeida' pid='2190' dateline='1435344199']
[quote='ndclub' pid='2188' dateline='1435343312']
[u]Upgrade System Pros[/u]
-A player has an additional sense of progression similar to RPG
-Rewards those who spend more time in game
-Traditional method in the unchanged Battleforge experience
-Rewards PVE playtime more than PVP (this could also be considered con)
-Can be source of pride for those who enjoy showing off how much they have worked

[u]Upgrade System Cons[/u]
-Biggest power separation between new player and veteran
-Adds significant grinding time to achieve viable decks
-Causes players to stick with fewer decks than they would like
-We cant carry over our upgrades we already worked towards to BFReborn
-Inventory upgrade tab and upgrade rewards from map often confused as cards owned
-Random PVE rewards can cause a player to achieve nothing for play
-Victorytokens, battletokens, and honortokens are all arguably unnecessary and add complexity, sometimes confused by new players as BFP
-Almost forces some players to play maps and modes they would prefer not to play
-Not a system shared by any other RTS and very few cardgames
-Can confuse new players
[/quote]
The faster upgrade system would best almost all if not all of cons
[/quote]

On the contrary I think it only removed the con "-Adds significant grinding time to achieve viable decks". Everything else stands in some degree or another. Again, my request is please tell me why upgrades need to exist before suggesting faster upgrade rewards. If the game is not improved by them then why have them in the game?

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Giving more tokens for PvE or PvP maps would satisfy everyone. PvP players wouldn't have to grind whole month to get windweavers on U3 and PvE players would still have reason to play PvE maps.

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Some random thoughts:

The biggest problem with your suggestion that after everyone have gotten the card from every pve map people will just find the map that gives the best bfp/time spend and farm that. Despite that i still think rewarding Bfp for doing PvE is the best way to distribute Bfp.

Not a programmer but i imagine the Devs can make everyone start with one million of each of the tokens to avoid hardcoding cards to be u3.

edit: For the record i totally agree that removing upgrades is a good thing and i have yet to see a decent argument in favor of keeping upgrades. The main reason to have upgrades is so that there is an incentive/reward for doing PvE but with Ndclub's suggestion you get an even greater reward for doing PvE.

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I'm going to repeat myself, but i think removing upgrade all-together is wrong. It's removing a core mechanic from the original game, and the goal of the project is to relive the original game. There's a solution in between, and that's making greater rewards for playing PvE AND PvP , encouraging people to play it, but also limiting the grind. I'm sure with all the opinions taken into account we'll be able to reach a good solution.

@beijing, yes giving new players 10000 tokens is easily do-able.

Decisions regarding this will obviously be made after proper consultation with members and staff. And the decision will probably only be made close to game release.

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[quote='beijingguy' pid='2194' dateline='1435345211']
Some random thoughts:
The biggest problem with your suggestion that after everyone have gotten the card from every pve map people will just find the map that gives the best bfp/time spend and farm that. Despite that i still think rewarding Bfp for doing PvE is the best way to distribute Bfp.
[/quote]
My suggestion aims to give highest reward to first victory(card+BFP) and smaller reward for repeat victory(BFP). My vision is that the BFP value would not be great enough to where PVE rewards someone greater than any other mode so if they want to spend the time grinding one thing over and over, let them. If ever needed we can "re-balance" map rewards as we go. My only issue with this would be inevitable bots but if someone wants to bot a non-commercial game...whatever.

[quote='beijingguy' pid='2194' dateline='1435345211']
Not a programmer but i imagine the Devs can make everyone start with one million of each of the tokens to avoid hardcoding cards to be u3.
[/quote]

Though this would be what I believe to be a simple fix, it is not clean at all, still would add to confusion for everyone and not appear professional. If there is some programing error all cards at U1 can simply be "rebalanced" to their U3 power and then hope that upgrades do not hold back charges, still needs to be coded but difficulty is unknown for me.

[quote='Aazrl' pid='2193' dateline='1435344991']
Giving more tokens for PvE or PvP maps would satisfy everyone. PvP players wouldn't have to grind whole month to get windweavers on U3 and PvE players would still have reason to play PvE maps.
[/quote]

I don't think you understand, I am giving PVE players MORE incentive to play PVE.

[quote='Anonymos' pid='2195' dateline='1435346638']
extremly bad idea ther has to be somethink where u can aim for
otherwise u will loose intrest in the game...
[/quote]

Something to aim for? You still have PVP and PVE rankings, BFP, and card collection. That is more than any other successful RTS I can think of. If the game is fun they will come back no matter what the rewards are.

[quote='Dexirian' pid='2196' dateline='1435346755']
I'm going to repeat myself, but i think removing upgrade all-together is wrong. It's removing a core mechanic from the original game, and the goal of the project is to relive the original game. There's a solution in between, and that's making greater rewards for playing PvE AND PvP , encouraging people to play it, but also limiting the grind. I'm sure with all the opinions taken into account we'll be able to reach a good solution.

@beijing, yes giving new players 10000 tokens is easily do-able.

Decisions regarding this will obviously be made after proper consultation with members and staff. And the decision will probably only be made close to game release.
[/quote]

Thank you for your feedback. I understand it is a core mechanic of the game and would love to suggest leaving it, but only when it is determined that it is a GOOD mechanic. Balancing almost being completely ignored was a "mechanic" of the game but no one is arguing to keep that the same. As great as BF was it wasn't perfect and somethings had potential for improvement, low hanging fruit if you will.

I also understand that there is no need for rapid decisions, only desired to start the dialog.

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I'm sorry but it's very bad idea. Completely changes style and traditions of the game.

But reward system should change of course, for instance by increasing amounts in token. From the beginning players should get good amount of Tokens in order to build deck.

Honestly, i play only PVP and don't care about PVE, which is boring for me.

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[quote='ndclub' pid='2197' dateline='1435346802']
[quote='Aazrl' pid='2193' dateline='1435344991']
Giving more tokens for PvE or PvP maps would satisfy everyone. PvP players wouldn't have to grind whole month to get windweavers on U3 and PvE players would still have reason to play PvE maps.
[/quote]

I don't think you understand, I am giving PVE players MORE incentive to play PVE.

[hr]
Yup, you are right. I don't get how removing a reward from PvE maps (normally PvE players would get upgrade+bfp) will make PvE maps more incentive to play?

[quote='Anonymos' pid='2195' dateline='1435346638']
extremly bad idea ther has to be somethink where u can aim for
otherwise u will loose intrest in the game...
[/quote]

Something to aim for? You still have PVP and PVE rankings, BFP, and card collection. That is more than any other successful RTS I can think of. If the game is fun they will come back no matter what the rewards are.
[/quote]

Some players just love collecting stuff. It doesn't matter if they are collecting bfp, cards, ranks or upgrades. By removing upgrades they have one thing less to collect. For them, Game will become less fun, because they are not able to collect stuff anymore.

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[quote='Aazrl' pid='2200' dateline='1435348104']
[quote='ndclub' pid='2197' dateline='1435346802']
[quote='Aazrl' pid='2193' dateline='1435344991']
Giving more tokens for PvE or PvP maps would satisfy everyone. PvP players wouldn't have to grind whole month to get windweavers on U3 and PvE players would still have reason to play PvE maps.
[/quote]

I don't think you understand, I am giving PVE players MORE incentive to play PVE.

[hr]
Yup, you are right. I don't get how removing a reward from PvE maps (normally PvE players would get upgrade+bfp) will make PvE maps more incentive to play?

[quote='Anonymos' pid='2195' dateline='1435346638']
extremly bad idea ther has to be somethink where u can aim for
otherwise u will loose intrest in the game...
[/quote]

Something to aim for? You still have PVP and PVE rankings, BFP, and card collection. That is more than any other successful RTS I can think of. If the game is fun they will come back no matter what the rewards are.
[/quote]

Some players just love collecting stuff. It doesn't matter if they are collecting bfp, cards, ranks or upgrades. By removing upgrades they have one thing less to collect. For them, Game will become less fun, because they are not able to collect stuff anymore.
[/quote]

That would not leave them leave the game. Not having charges would make new players leave. Charges are an unnecessary extra resource that players have to keep in mind. Have enough power?good. have required orbs? great. Have charges? Nope. Well too bad..

Then it comes down to resources not in the current match affecting gameplay in a huge way.
Let's say you're playing LoL or HotS, do you think it would be fair if someone could cast a spells more times than you in quick succession, just because he has been playing longer?

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@UltraKool - I am not quite understanding what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting that we remove the charge mechanic as well?

I considered that but the charge mechanic is in my opinion a great translation to the way card multiples affect card draws in real card games. The requirement of card charges does not cause a player to play a mode they are not as fond of and with enough BFP in hand, causes no grind whatsoever.
[hr]
[quote='Aazrl' pid='2200' dateline='1435348104']
Some players just love collecting stuff. It doesn't matter if they are collecting bfp, cards, ranks or upgrades. By removing upgrades they have one thing less to collect. For them, Game will become less fun, because they are not able to collect stuff anymore.
[/quote]

There was a very small minority, almost insignificant, of BForge who had every card so I don't think its an issue of people running out of things to collect. Do these players only play games where there is an infinite amount of things to add to their inventory? The core bforge game is more fun than we seem to be giving it credit, I am trying to ensure as many can be exposed to it as possible without giving up.

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[quote='ndclub' pid='2205' dateline='1435348800']
@UltraKool - I am not quite understanding what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting that we remove the charge mechanic as well?

I considered that but the charge mechanic is in my opinion a great translation to the way card multiples affect card draws in real card games. The requirement of card charges does not cause a player to play a mode they are not as fond of and with enough BFP in hand, causes no grind whatsoever.
[/quote]

That may be so that it simulates card multiples and card draws, but this is an RTS game as well. If you have less charges, it is a limiting resource and you would need to take another resource into consideration. That will cause unnecessary frustration in newer players. Maybe we don't have to remove the charge system completely but like Lagops and me among others discussed in the shout box, cards could have 2x base charge at U0, and have the charge upgrade system stay as it is. Take for example the giant wyrm could have base charge of 2 instead of 1.
U0: 2 U1: 3 U2: 4 U3: 5

Imagine a PVE game, where you just got your four orbs, have over 1000 power, and due to charge upgrades could only spend ca. 600 power: 1 giant wyrm+ few ember strikes and few tempests and then have to wait 2.5 minutes for another giant wyrm.

Whereas a different player with the same amount of power, orbs, summons 3 giant wyrms.

Obviously the second player's army will be stronger with the same amount of power as he is able to summon more of stronger units.

If player one wants the same force as player 2, they would need to wait an astonishing 5 minutes.

With the new system, yes charge upgrades will still have an effect on the game, but not in a way that is gamebreaking and excessively frustrating for new players

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i liked the old system. lets keep bafo the way it was because it was the bafo that we loved. removing changes is too drastic and a bit too early to discuss

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I feel like i do have a rather strong opnion on the upgrade and charge system previously present in battleforge.

Usually new players do not know how to get tokens for upgrades and often don't even know you can actually add charges to a card. it is common to see new players playing the game with few upgrades and no charges for a long amount of time. the players will eventually get behind the upgrade and charge system, that is if they do not leave the game before that happens.

to not make players leave, you must give them the best experience the game can offer right [b]from the start[/b]. however, you must also give them an incentive to keep playing, such as making it to deck level 120. this objective should be hard enough to reach to keep the player invested into the game while beeing reachable easy enough to not just make them leave the moment they realise how much grinding lies ahead of them.
upgrades in battleforge generate long term motivation, emoving them entirely would certainly [b]harm[/b] the game!

i feel the overall the grind is not only a bit to long, penalizing switching decks a bit too much. but in light of the increased bfp gain, token packs can shorten the grind period to a more reasonable amount, so overall the time needed to grind and feeling of reward seem appropriate to me.


[b]however:[/b]

there is one thing besides that which is entirely not ok the way it used to be: grinding was [b]required [/b]to play the game in a satisfying way.

as soon as new players starts to play higher level pve he will realise that he just cannot win the map. is it because the free cards were terribly weak? not at all. are upgrades too strong? mostly not.
the real reason the player fails is the lack of card charges. while he has the power to play units, he must wait for their cooldown all the time. 1 charge for giant wyrm is laughable. there is nothing more frustrating in the game than losing because you were just not [b]allowed [/b]to use your cards. a new player is likely going to inform himself about how best to grind the deck in case he did not leave in frustration yet.
in this case they likely start playing rpve to grind tokens. then it is only a matter of time until an experienced player carrys them through the map with bloodhorns and lost spirit ships. the new player will feel [b]utterly useless [/b]waiting to spawn a second wyrm while others clear the map on their own. eventually he will often end up watching others win the game for him, going afk after hitting t4 with his team. not just once, but again and again. the amount of players still sticking around should be fairly low now. an additional pvp deck is wishfull thinking at best.


this leads to the question: why are charges in the game? what purpose do they serve? obviously to make players buy the same card 4x.

how could they even get away with that? the answer is simple: when the game was pay to play, you basically bought it without knowing this and you would not ragequit a game so easyly after [b]spending money on it[/b] would you (sunk cost's fallacy)?

however, when the game became free to play, there was [b]nothing [/b]to keep new players playing. aditionally the game was from ea, so you kind off expect to get milked. most players just leave, why would you even bother playing a pay to win cashgrab paying for the same card 4x?


[b]How can we fix this issue?[/b]

sadly this mechanic is tied to upgrade levels and removing it entirely would imply handing out u3 max charge cards right from the start, effectively removing upgrades as well (which i would NOT support).

Basically we do have 3 viable options, some more easy to implement than others.

1. Every card in the starter deck (assuming it is the former free to play deck) start with at least upgrade 1 and charge 1. cards from boosters and auction house/trade still are u0. adding additional commons to the free to play deck to have it full 20 card decks might be nessecary. this change has the least overall impact and would be very easy to implement without the need to touch the client at all. this is definately possible with near 0 effort.

2. Every card starts with twice the base charges at upgrade 0, while charges still give the same amount of extra charges.
for example: giant wyrm would start out having 2 charges at u0 and 5 at u3 with max charges compared to 1 charge at u0 and 4 at u3 previously.
this will result in more charges at the highest upgrade level, which should still have minimal impact at high deck lvls for most cards.
this might be a bit harder to implement, but still doable.

3. Every card has the entire charges and charges per level adjusted. this is clearly the most work and might not be possible depending on the way card charges were implemented in the client.
for example a card with 5 inital charges followed this scheme:
5+5+5+5=20 charges. now we could adjust this to 8+4+4+4=20 charges, leaving lategame unaffected and allowing fine tuning. this will be a lot of work as there are many cards in the game even if it is possible. yet it is arguably the most satisfying solution with most controll given to the developers to adjust values.

I personally would be satisfied with option 1, but would prefer option 2 and 3 over it if it is easy enough to implement.


"but lagops, let's get the game running first and then think about such things" NEIN! NEIN! NEIN!
As soon as the game is launched we will have the most amount of new players trying it out. if we do not have the system implemented and tested by then, it will be all for nothing! if we make such a change (we really should), then it has to be in effect as soon as the game is launched.



Upgrades on the other hand are mostly fine in my book, cards rarely get much much stronger when upgraded. upgrade impact may be adjusted in a few extreme cases if that is possible. the limiting factor has allways been the amount of charges the cards have had.


tl:dr just READ the post will you? i put effort into it!

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The letters should not start the upgrade 3, the game would be very easy and without any sense. Do not take what BattleForge has to offer that is "The Challenge"
BattleForge is a MMORTS then have to have a reason for evolution is not the MMO would be forgotten and become only an RTS, it is necessary to have upgrades and ranks for the PvE makes sense.

it does not remove the bit RPG , and the sense that the BattleForge have to upgrade it in their cards , if not pve would be meaningless.

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[quote='Wanted' pid='2216' dateline='1435353906']
The letters should not start the upgrade 3, the game would be very easy and without any sense. Do not take what BattleForge has to offer that is "The Challenge"
BattleForge is a MMORTS then have to have a reason for evolution is not the MMO would be forgotten and become only an RTS, it is necessary to have upgrades and ranks for the PvE makes sense.
[/quote]

I think you mean RPG instead of MMO , MMO is massively multiplayer , rpg is role playing (upgrading etc)
[hr]
oh and btw i think that was got from google traductor because "cards" isnt "letters"

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I would like to have a solution which didn't forces me to play PvE bevor starting PvP. So if I would get some BFP for each PvP match win and if I am able to buy tokens in the store (like in legacy BF), then I'm satisfied. I think this is easy to implement.

@LagOps' last post:

to 1: I like this idea, especially since many of the cards in the starting deck will be commons/uncommons and hence more easy to charge. Then I could already play from the very beginning with a deck created out of the starting deck cards.

Optimization: Instead of beeing forced to have starter cards U1 there could be an amount of tokens in the pool, which is equal to the number of tokens needed to get one starter deck u1. Then everybody can choose on his own how to spend the tokens and maybe makes only 2 cards U3 and the rest stays U0 if he wishes.

to 2: I liked the moments when someone run out of charges in a 120 deck. It shows that we was not able to manage the charges, or he spammed low charge units and it was good that he had to stop.

to 3: could fix number 2, but feels not harmonic.

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[quote='Carofex' pid='2221' dateline='1435355429']
Optimization: Instead of beeing forced to have starter cards U1 there could be an amount of tokens in the pool, which is equal to the number of tokens needed to get one starter deck u1. Then everybody can choose on his own how to spend the tokens and maybe makes only 2 cards U3 and the rest stays U0 if he wishes.

[/quote]
That wouldn't solve anything since new players wouldnt find the way to upgrade new cards

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I don't know if this would be a viable action or not, but why not make card skins. I know this may not even be possible at all, but like LoL or Dota, adding cosmetics to some cards sounds like fun. :S

It would be another reward to be given to players.

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[quote='Carofex' pid='2221' dateline='1435355429']
Optimization: Instead of beeing forced to have starter cards U1 there could be an amount of tokens in the pool, which is equal to the number of tokens needed to get one starter deck u1. 
[/quote]

this certainly would be good/better for experienced players, but new players will not even find the option ot upgrade cards easyly. remember you have to right click on your card to find the menue, then switch tabs to get the "buy with tokens screen", then buy the upgrade, then apply it and then add a card to charge it.

new players will
a) not know you can add charges to your cards
b) not know you can buy upgrades with tokens
c) not know they have the tokens to do so right from the start
d) not find the menue to do so
e) get confused by the menue

because of those reasons, having upgrades and charges allready applied may be a less flexible and certainly inferior solution for old players, but also a less confusing solution for new players. new players will at first not even realise they have upgraded cards in their deck. this is optimal in my opinion since it is good game desing to not overwhelm new players with options and confront them with choices, which have long term consequences.

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New players play tutorial first and will get card upgrades after that. Then they see on their own or ask in chat what to do with it. In the upgade menue there they will also see tha they can buy upgrades and all is fine. This shouldn't overburden.

Edit: Ok maybe I can't put myself good enough in the position of a beginner.

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