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Urmeli

Build in Expert Strategy Replays

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3 hours ago, Asgard57 said:

Now I speak on behalf of my team namely Asgard57, ducarev , aka , Alex-serg , AntoXaa . And it will be about our guesses my team made guns of lyr for 5.1. seconds after which the other team does the same thing and this team of German players !!!! After that, we began to have doubts about their game and That my doubts and doubt my team vanished, I want to offer an exchange of replays !!! And if they have copied the game as we have then I have no choice but to blame the fact that they had our replay and they watched it !!!! Not without the help of German developers !!! Well, if they replay a will vary with our I will apologize to all whom I offended !!!! And I want to hear the opinion of the team I'm talking about !!! And in case of failure to exchange replays!!! I urge the administration to resolve this conflict !!! So as we 2 team which show best times on all maps and if my rivals enjoy somehow the priemuschestvom the I not see sense play !

 

Yo, that ain't true for most parts.
We got a new tactic by accident, and got better over time. We had kinda the same idea as u guys did, since after we broke the old record and u bested us for some days, we thought someone of us gave away our tactic. Anyhow, none of us is in a nearer connection to the developers. We still can better our time for Guns (and Dwarven/Empire/etc...) and as soon as we get a replay we for ourselves think we cant make any faster, we will gladfully upload the replays. Until that, get to our level buddy, Whitchhunt!
ign BehaaaveBaby

Edited by GreenSapphire

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5 hours ago, Asgard57 said:

Now I speak on behalf of my team namely Asgard57, ducarev , aka , Alex-serg , AntoXaa . And it will be about our guesses my team made guns of lyr for 5.1. seconds after which the other team does the same thing and this team of German players !!!! After that, we began to have doubts about their game and That my doubts and doubt my team vanished, I want to offer an exchange of replays !!! And if they have copied the game as we have then I have no choice but to blame the fact that they had our replay and they watched it !!!! Not without the help of German developers !!! Well, if they replay a will vary with our I will apologize to all whom I offended !!!! And I want to hear the opinion of the team I'm talking about !!! And in case of failure to exchange replays!!! I urge the administration to resolve this conflict !!! So as we 2 team which show best times on all maps and if my rivals enjoy somehow the priemuschestvom the I not see sense play !

 

Asgard57 it is nice that you are willing to write something in this forum but it should make sence. Lets have a closer look at the history:

1) From October 2013-2019 the record for guns of lyr was 06.48 min.

2) The first team that was able to beat 06.48 was our team and not YOUR team. Btw we used a new tactic that was developed by ourself. For sure we are sorry for this.

3) The first team that was below 6min was our team and not your team. The first team that was below 5 min was our team and not your team.

@MephistoRoss@Kubik@MrXLink - is it possible that you can show a time list for guns of lyr speedruns for which both teams were involed?

 

Team "Germany" including Pritstift, Treim, Lebovin, Tomate, Wanky, BehaaaveBaby  (replay times):

23.01.2019: 06.41 - beat old record - YES!!!

24.01.2019: 06.20 - improvement

25.01.2019: 06.10 - improvement

25.01.2019: 05.59 - first time below 6 min - YES!!!

26.01.2019: 05.49 - improvement

26.01.2019: 05.30 - improvement

26.01.2019: 05.29 - improvement

26.01.2016: 05.12 - improvement

01.02.2019: 05.04 - improvement

01.02.2019: 04.58 - first time below 5 min - YES!!!

XX:XX:2019: 04:XX - we will see (also without your replay)

 

So please stop to flame here. The Devs (no Germans) can also confirm this. You can write something here but stop to lie and to write things that are not true. You have to accept that there are also other goood players that are able to compete with you. BTW this players are not just Germans.

I think for you and your team it is a new experience that there is a team that is able to beat you also in 4player maps. Do you know how we call this in Germany?

COMPETITION.

BTW we also able to play all other 4player maps fast. We just need the time for it.

I want to clearly point out for all of my teammates that we never used any cheats or even server hacks or sth. like this. Our times are the result of good ideas hard training and skilled players.

 

I am sorry that the RUSSIAN speedruners cant accept this. It is also not ok that you try to involve the developers of Skylords Reborn in this. The whole team never would give out replays of other teams.

 

To finish this : It seems like that you and your team are just sore losers.

Edited by Pritstift

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Хахаха то есть Вы не прибегали к помощи разработчиков из ahahaha

 

Hahaha that is you did not resort to the help of the developers of ahahaha

My friend when you were sitting you were sitting at 6: 20 we were already playing a new tactic and we did not work because it was not ready !!!!! And if you're AFRAID to change the replays then you're afraid that your whole team will fall into the mud face and no one will be close to you to compete because your narrow circle of thinking is not able to come up with something new !!!!!!! and to Kubik ran the first you and I have there is message as you're asking test against Russian team

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3 hours ago, Asgard57 said:

Хахаха то есть Вы не прибегали к помощи разработчиков из ahahaha

 

Hahaha that is you did not resort to the help of the developers of ahahaha

My friend when you were sitting you were sitting at 6: 20 we were already playing a new tactic and we did not work because it was not ready !!!!! And if you're AFRAID to change the replays then you're afraid that your whole team will fall into the mud face and no one will be close to you to compete because your narrow circle of thinking is not able to come up with something new !!!!!!! and to Kubik ran the first you and I have there is message as you're asking test against Russian team

I really dont know what is wrong with you xD. Your argumentation is illogical and a bit childish. But i think we cant change this and we have tp accept players like you.

I just want to add one more point. It is right that we had a talk to Kubik - we were asking him if it is possible that somebody gave OUR replays to a member of your team because we were wondering that you are able to do similar times shortly after we did. Kubik clarified that this was not happening. So you know what is the difference?

We accepted that you found a similar/maybe same tactic for new guns of lyr speedrun and we not started to flame you in the way you are doing right now. So we started to improve it again and again. You should also think about that there are maybe different ways to do it faster. So how you want to know that we have the same tactic like you? This is just speculation - also from our side.

As soon as we have improved the time again and we think this is the maximum we can do - we will share it to the community.

Maybe you can use this time to accept that there is/was a fair competition.

 

 

 

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I enjoy the idea, that decks cannot be seen, nor replays. It was so antifun, when you came up with a new cool idea, and you knew, it would be just copied if you finish the map (best way was to never finish the map till the end of the month, and then finish it on the last day, but still kind weird)

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Hello together,

as the cretor of this thread I have acutally realized that I totally underrated the efford some players put into the game to achieve these speed run results and the competition some of you have within the speed run "functionality". Therefor I totally agree now, that my proposed idea will destroy the game experience of speedruns.

Therefore I will try to turn the discussion back in the direction my idea was based on.
I, as a player without a "group", am dependent on other players who are willing to play 2 or 4 Player maps. And if I open the game and look for expert game lobbies to play in, I only find RPVE, Guns of Lyr and Dwarven Riddle.

In my opinion the reason for this is that RPVE can be won without any knowledge and for Dwarven Riddle and Guns of Lyr some 100% working strategies are existing, so that the winrate of these expert maps are nearly 100% if you have at least 1 Player in the team who knows what to do.

Even if it was formulated differently my main purpose of this proposal was to make working strategies (not best speedrun strategies) for expert maps easier accessable so that more players dare to play these maps. Especially if they are not premade and rely on communicting by chat. For my feeling, Kubiks view on this is "look at youtube, you find all necessary information there" but I think the number of open expert lobbies show, that this is not enough to resolve the problem I described. (Side comment: Another disadvantage of youtube is, that you only see the view of the video recorder. But sometimes you are intersted in whats happening on other positions of the map, for example another players position.)

 

Therefore I like to propose a slightly adjusted request:
Is it possible to show a working expert replay (maybe replays which have been voluntarily shared by players or maybe random replays  which are significantly slower than the speedrun results) in the lobby creating screen? (see Screenshot)
The only requirement these replays should fulfill is, that they have been recorded with the proposed numer of players for the map and all players have survived until the end.

With this kind of feature I think that even players who dont have an own group to develop strategies can organize each other. "Hey lets play it the way as it is shown in the actual replay" and they have a chance to do so and they dont need to worry that they ruin the experience of others due to their lack of strategy knowledge.

I surely would favor that these "examplary replays" change once a month or a week, so that players can follow different strategies.

I am highly interested about your opinions on this Idea

Best Regards

Urmeli

123.jpg

Edited by Urmeli
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Not sure about the button look, but "normal" gray button with yellow text would be most probably possible.

BUT we would need the replays, from players that will share them as their own decision.

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Hi Kubik,

the appearence is not important, the functionality is the key.

I think, we will find voluntaries who will share some replays and I will try to set a good example.
Here is my "King of Giants Expert replay" i just played 5 min ago.
The other Players, Zelman21, YczachaY and IronManOne agreed to share it.

20190202_180659_11303_PvE_04p_KingOfTheGiants.pmv

121212.JPG

Edited by Urmeli
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4 hours ago, Urmeli said:

Hello together,

as the cretor of this thread I have acutally realized that I totally underrated the efford some players put into the game to achieve these speed run results and the competition some of you have within the speed run "functionality". Therefor I totally agree now, that my proposed idea will destroy the game experience of speedruns.

Therefore I will try to turn the discussion back in the direction my idea was based on.
I, as a player without a "group", am dependent on other players who are willing to play 2 or 4 Player maps. And if I open the game and look for expert game lobbies to play in, I only find RPVE, Guns of Lyr and Dwarven Riddle.

In my opinion the reason for this is that RPVE can be won without any knowledge and for Dwarven Riddle and Guns of Lyr some 100% working strategies are existing, so that the winrate of these expert maps are nearly 100% if you have at least 1 Player in the team who knows what to do.

Even if it was formulated differently my main purpose of this proposal was to make working strategies (not best speedrun strategies) for expert maps easier accessable so that more players dare to play these maps. Especially if they are not premade and rely on communicting by chat. For my feeling, Kubiks view on this is "look at youtube, you find all necessary information there" but I think the number of open expert lobbies show, that this is not enough to resolve the problem I described. (Side comment: Another disadvantage of youtube is, that you only see the view of the video recorder. But sometimes you are intersted in whats happening on other positions of the map, for example another players position.)

 

Therefore I like to propose a slightly adjusted request:
Is it possible to show a working expert replay (maybe replays which have been voluntarily shared by players or maybe random replays  which are significantly slower than the speedrun results) in the lobby creating screen? (see Screenshot)
The only requirement these replays should fulfill is, that they have been recorded with the proposed numer of players for the map and all players have survived until the end.

With this kind of feature I think that even players who dont have an own group to develop strategies can organize each other. "Hey lets play it the way as it is shown in the actual replay" and they have a chance to do so and they dont need to worry that they ruin the experience of others due to their lack of strategy knowledge.

I surely would favor that these "examplary replays" change once a month or a week, so that players can follow different strategies.

I am highly interested about your opinions on this Idea

Best Regards

Urmeli

123.jpg

Awesome idea, I have not completed many expert maps cause mostly i dont know what to do or my team mates dont know. This would solve that indeed.

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Thanks for your effort to get rid of the toxidy in this thread and your replays.

You find more in those 2 threads:

https://forum.skylords.eu/index.php?/topic/5172-dwarven-riddle-replay/

https://forum.skylords.eu/index.php?/topic/5261-the-guns-of-lyr-2-players-farming/

 

Replay of me doing Soultree with the used Deck:

20190130_183106_11103_PvE_01p_ViridyasMadness.pmv

1060108150_PPBSoultree.jpg.d277bcdb0054a1b533ca9f611536be61.jpg

 

Replay of our 3 man Group doing Lyr with the used Deck:

20190202_220007_11302_PvE_04p_EnemyAvalanche.pmv

698912563_PPBBGunsofLyr.thumb.jpg.5513b3c5d013aaaa2ac576912b72f067.jpg

(Too long, and some mistaskes. Just to see the general idea)

 

3 Replays of my Learning Session with MephistoRoss:

(if someone of the Groups don't want to share, please PM)

20190120_124012_12301_PvE_04p_Endfight.pmv

20190120_114245_11300_PvE_04p_BadHarvest.pmv

20190120_103251_11302_PvE_04p_EnemyAvalanche.pmv

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I still think integrating it to game is not best idea, because everyone would need to download all replays, so I think picking one of community portals to share replays would be better place, because you would have option to pick from possibly multiple strategies uploaded by multiple people. Integrating to game would need to keep concerns about size, because some people have problems with it, would need to also pick only single replay per map, or increase size again, while most people would not use them anyway.

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Hi,

The replays I included in my last posts are 20-100 kB each, which means that all 27 expert replays wild need a discspace of roughly 1-3 MB. My personal understanding ist that this feature is worth the "size" because I think that shared replays on a community platform will not have the below mentioned advantage.

Quote

With this kind of feature I think that even players who dont have an own group to develop strategies can organize each other. "Hey lets play it the way as it is shown in the actual replay" and they have a chance to do so and they dont need to worry that they ruin the experience of others due to their lack of strategy knowledge.

Mfg Urmel

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and did you consider the size of the game modification? and there was request to replace them weekly, or offer the list of them. I can not image it working :P I imagine it as 4 players start 4 different strategies and start screaming on each other that they doing it wrong.

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Hey Kubik,

I think it does not make sense to argue back and forth if you have a different view on this feature. Therefore I wont do it.

I only like to request other players who think this feature will maybe resolve the problem of "limited to nearly no existent expert lobbys"  that they share their opinion.

Mfg Urmel

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On 2/1/2019 at 1:30 AM, Pritstift said:

I cant agree in this point. Most of our tactis were developed by ourself - we did not create just simple copies of existing tactics. We developed tactics on a higher Level - we invested a lot of time and trained for this a lot. If you share all the tactics to the community everybody will simple copy it . I think for speedrunning you should start to understand the mechanics of every single map by yourself. In this way you may can create better tactics and you will also be able to compete against the existing speedrunning teams.

If you know a good strategy for a pve map you can repeat it again and again until it is nearly perfect. As a consequence of this the situation is much different compared to PVP. In PVP every match can be different - so in my opinion it is no problem to share tactics here . Depending from the single situation in PVP you can decide which tactic or card combo you may like to use in the match.

Also showing the deck can be critical for the Top 3 rankings. Just one different card can make the difference here. It is not always possible to hide a strategy by adding stupid cards in it - for some speedrun decks i am using every single card because it is mandatory. If you understand the mechanics of a speedrun and the map an experienced player can read the strategy the other team may used just by checking just the deck. I can say this from my own experience - lot of tactics were copied from me and my team mates in this simple way. You also can recognize this right now - if we would show our new decks for guns of lyr speedrun everybody would get a good idea how we are able to finish this map so fast. Motivated players should better reflect for themself how this map may can be done faster and they should invest the same time to train possible tactics.

I' can't agree more with Pritstift !

And Moreover, as a speedrunner too, now that i saw their new record, i can't wait for training again in Guns of Lyr trying to understand how they made it. Even if i don't have yet a team of 4, i still can train on my side with a friend and search for new strategies now that i know it's possible to be that fast. Just knowing their time is a Hudge difference ! i can look closer at new timing on replays, at wave spawning, at the energy you can and can't have at that moment... My best time is 7:30 on this map :P, i'll have a headache to think differently.

Then just try to figure out how they made it ! If they show me their deck right now it will be unpleasant... i'll be sad, and miss the opportunity to guess by myself.

But as soon as i'll have a good clue and if they told me i'm correct, i'll ask top teams to train with them.

@Urmeli/Navarr : You just have to guess their deck first, and make yourself known in maps you can train.

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3 hours ago, Irysunna said:

I' can't agree more with Pritstift !

And Moreover, as a speedrunner too, now that i saw their new record, i can't wait for training again in Guns of Lyr trying to understand how they made it. Even if i don't have yet a team of 4, i still can train on my side with a friend and search for new strategies now that i know it's possible to be that fast. Just knowing their time is a Hudge difference ! i can look closer at new timing on replays, at wave spawning, at the energy you can and can't have at that moment... My best time is 7:30 on this map :P, i'll have a headache to think differently.

Then just try to figure out how they made it ! If they show me their deck right now it will be unpleasant... i'll be sad, and miss the opportunity to guess by myself.

But as soon as i'll have a good clue and if they told me i'm correct, i'll ask top teams to train with them.

@Urmeli/Navarr : You just have to guess their deck first, and make yourself known in maps you can train.

See, the thing is: This is probably the last exception of where a tactic isn't publicly known when we talk about multiplayer PvE maps. And even the tactic for this run is based off very very old community tactics (correct me if I'm wrong but I'm like 99% certain). So, considering that the tactic for multiplayer maps is almost the same (decomposer into instant amii t4 and/or enlightenment) for every map, I'm still looking forward to see public decks, if not even public replays for a public rank in a public ladder. But that's just my perception of how a community-friendly transparent ladder should work. People that are newer and like to figure out the decks on their own can do so by not looking at the publicly availablle data (which is what lots of us do anyways, like for example when we force ourselves not to look at the wikia during our first Dark Souls run to keep the tension up), while not restraining new and old players that just want to pick up the correct deck and practise.

Edit: Yes, there is pretty decent information on youtube. No, I don't think beginning with speedrunning should start with 5 hours of youtube and replay search. Also most of this information is outdated and will potentially continue wasting lots of time.

Edited by Navarr

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"community-friendly"? so if someone figure out better strategy, the reward will be first page for few hours max, and then group of 4-8 people move him down by creating multiple teams and being just second faster. so no one will know who came with that new strategy.

"by not looking" you think most players is capable of that?

"like ... Dark Souls" really not all Dark Souls speedruns have any public data except the picture containing helmet and time.

"correct deck" ? do not think new players can just do that even with replay, because they will not have all the cards anyway. Not even asking how you came to term "correct".

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3 hours ago, Kubik said:

"community-friendly"? so if someone figure out better strategy, the reward will be first page for few hours max, and then group of 4-8 people move him down by creating multiple teams and being just second faster. so no one will know who came with that new strategy.

"by not looking" you think most players is capable of that?

"like ... Dark Souls" really not all Dark Souls speedruns have any public data except the picture containing helmet and time.

"correct deck" ? do not think new players can just do that even with replay, because they will not have all the cards anyway. Not even asking how you came to term "correct".

"If someone figures out better strategy" = change a few cards from the existing decks. Please remember we didn't have a balance patch for a looong time.

"players might be not capable" - you might have a point here. I will think about that.

I didn't compare anything to dark souls speedruns, I was just referring to the feeling of uncertainty some players want to maintain.

The term "correct" explains itself pretty well as there is a limited amount of possibilities on deck and movement so you can definetly play "correctly" by using the best possible cards with (very close to) perfect micro.

Edited by Navarr

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Did you see the Guns of Lyr, we have multiple world record this year by significant margin of about 30% faster. And I think they change more than few cards :P 

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1 hour ago, Kubik said:

Did you see the Guns of Lyr, we have multiple world record this year by significant margin of about 30% faster. And I think they change more than few cards :P 

No I didn't see it because it's not public. So you could hypothetically say I never will. Why? Well, according to your logic: They need to get the fastest possible time (frame perfect) first, which will probably take several thousand runs because of server latency and all that, because why would they share the replay before making sure nobody can use their totally new tactic to get an even faster time.

BUT, even without seeing the replay I don't think it would surprise me by a lot. We'd see 3 players feeding into a decomposer. Some Rifle cultists or whatever clearing the houses to trigger the final wave which will be defended by some huge anti air damage like more rifle cultists, wbg or something like that. As there are 3 more players you would think there is a lot of room for variety, but as most or (more likely) all of them stay t1, I don't think I have to elaborate more on this. Even a PvP player without a lot of speedrun experience can easily use the same old tactic that has been developed by the community - if he remembers it ;). The problem here is getting a good time, which is not only the direct result of lots of runs and practise but also comes from remembering the correct move/build order and stuff like exact well count etc for maximum efficiency.

SO, we will see if they changed more than a few cards. I very much don't believe it.

 

Also, another thing I want to add to this discussion when we think about deck variety. Don't you think public decks would GREATLY enhance it in the long run because there would be a reason to play pure decks or other weird strategies and still get good times with them to impress others? It has always been that way, so why remove this component?

 

Edited by Navarr

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I can list few more from other topics, so it is public info that they fighting each other. I will not tell you their strategies (because I do not know them) but you are incorrect :P 

I even think these two teams have different strategies.

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