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DarcReaver

Building Cards (PvP)

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The main reason why most buildings are considered useless is that they bind a lot of power, and you can't move them around. 
Having multiple buildings binds too much power that cannot get back in the void. And even if you delete them you'll have a large temporary disadvantage.

I think it would be a solution to this if buildings either would give back a percentage of their cost instantly and the rest via void power. As a drawback buildings would only return 75% of their total cost as void, not 90%. To prevent building spam a damaged building returns less instant power than a full health building.

The main advantage that I see is that the "bound power" issue is reduced drastically while not having to change the overall power of buildings in the first place.

The formula could be something like this:

Building cost x (health%) x 0,5 = power returned instantly. 
Building cost x 0,75 - (building cost x (health%) x 0,5) = power into void 

Example:

Building costs 100 power, 100% health:

100 x 1,00 x 0,5 = 50 power  back instantly
100 x 0,75 - (100 x 1,00 x 0,5) = 25 power back to void

Total returned power = 50 + 25 = 75

Example 2:

Building costs 100 power, 25% health:

100 x 0,25 x 0,5 = 12,5 power back instantly
100 x 0,75 - (100 x 0,25 x 0,5) = 62,5 power back to void

Total returned power = 12,5 + 62,5 = 75 power

Example 3:

Building costs 60 power, 50% health:

60 x 0,5 x 0,5 = 15 power back instantly
60 x 0,75 - (60 x 0,5 x 0,5) = 30 back to void

Total returned power = 15 + 30 = 45 power

 

Edited by DarcReaver

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Most buildings aren't viable in PvP and that is a good thing. Towers in PvP are providing nothing but slow and boring gameplay with no counterplay. They nerfed construction times outside of own powerwells for a good reason.

Making a global buff for buildings would just empower the use of cards, that are op anyways (cough Phasetower). Same thing goes for factions. What deck is arguably the strongest right now? Pure Fire. Which deck would benefit the most from such a change? Pure Fire. 

Playing around these structures will just result into a defensive wellspam with T3 finish afterwards (Lost Vigil was a counter to stonekin players, that abused cannon towers; Juggernaut still crushes buildings). 

 

Edited by RadicalX
SunWu II. and LagOps like this

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This is not just an issue for PvP. In PvE and especially rPvE that bound power is hugely important to balance things out.
Shrine of Memory, Wheel of Gifts, Amii Monument,...the list goes on and on. These are all buildings that can easily decide if a run is successful or not and given the importance of void power on all time-critical maps (rPvE, Insane God, etc.) a refund to the bound power would enable far easier playthroughs. This buff would take much of the challenge out of the harder difficulties while providing no benefit to lower levels of difficulty or overall gameplay.

The idea is interesting but in all honesty useless.

PS: Your poll isn't even worth the time you spent making it... :thinking:

PS: On this note Amii Monument should actually be nerfed power-wise as it's cheaper than an actual monument without the same drawbacks (amount of void power permanently lost).

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3 hours ago, Kaliber84 said:

This is not just an issue for PvP. In PvE and especially rPvE that bound power is hugely important to balance things out.
Shrine of Memory, Wheel of Gifts, Amii Monument,...the list goes on and on. These are all buildings that can easily decide if a run is successful or not and given the importance of void power on all time-critical maps (rPvE, Insane God, etc.) a refund to the bound power would enable far easier playthroughs. This buff would take much of the challenge out of the harder difficulties while providing no benefit to lower levels of difficulty or overall gameplay.

The idea is interesting but in all honesty useless.

PS: Your poll isn't even worth the time you spent making it... :thinking:

PS: On this note Amii Monument should actually be nerfed power-wise as it's cheaper than an actual monument without the same drawbacks (amount of void power permanently lost).

I hope you understand that the buildings still bind 100% of their power as long as they're standing on the map, right? The refund only applies when the building is demolished, and even then only if it's hitpoints are high. Demolishing a 10% remaining health Primal Defender (60 Power) will not refund 30 power but 3 power and the rest going to void, with 15 Power lost permanently.

A building that costs 200 power, upon delete you get back 100 power + 50 into void. So you're down 50 power. In current Battleforge you get back 180 power.

That's 2,5 times more power lost. (50 : 20 = 2,5)

If you do a full cycle of "build -> demolish -> rebuild for Shrine of Memory -> Amii Monument -> Wheel of Gifts" you'll loose ~ 180 power. Each time. Permanently. Right now in Battleforge you'd only loose around 60 power if you build and demolish the buildings. Even though you'll not get back an instant refund, which would be like 200 power for those 3 buildings (if they're at 100% health).

This power loss will quickly add up and result in a lot of lost power.

7 hours ago, shadowxxs77 said:

Yeah what radical said, not looking forward to seeing even more mortar, phase and cannon tower spamm.
And towers just slow down gameplay.

My proposal is a direct nerf to cheap building spam tactics like Phase Towers because they will only give back 75% of their original cost compared to 90%. the difference is quite large. With my proposal the destruction of 1 Phase Tower hurts the Phase Tower spammer as much as you'd destroy 3 Phase Towers in regular Battleforge. And damaging a tower to 10% health will result in 90% of those 75% power going to void - unavailable for the Phase spammer for 2 minutes.

Take Sunstrider or Forsaken with (50 power) x 0,9 = 45 + 5 power lost.
Makeshift tower (60 power) x 0,75 = 45  power + 15 power lost. 
And when the tower is 90% destroyed 42 power will go to void (60 x 0,75 - (60 x 0,1 x 0,5) = 42)

If buildings only return 75% power upon being destroyed this will also happen during construction, too. So if someone tries i.e. to do a cannon tower rush each destroyed constructing Cannon Tower means 70 x 0,25 = 18 power lost permanently and 52 power back into void. This is way more risky compared to 7 power lost and 63 going to void.

In general: If a player decides to spam and relocate buildings over and over again this will quickly turn into a void power advantage for the opponent due to the 15% void power difference per building. Poorly executed, spammed and placed buildings will be punished way harder.

Edited by DarcReaver

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2 minutes ago, Navarr said:

One of the worst ideas in this forum. I can only see negative consequences. Why is there no "no" vote possibility?

So not being able to spam buildings is a negative consequence? Elaborate pls.

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9 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

So not being able to spam buildings is a negative consequence? Elaborate pls.

How would this prevent building spam? The instaback power makes them even stronger in early game. This change would make towers polarize even more and render useless towers even more useless while some strong towers would get OP in more nische situations.

Edit: Im mainly not here though to discuss this idea, but to ask the question why the poll is made with 2x "yes". 

Edit 2: I just realized, in PvE this change would suck a whole lot too. Can't think of a single situation where this could be any good, but maybe you have an example.

Edited by Navarr

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23 minutes ago, Navarr said:

How would this prevent building spam? The instaback power makes them even stronger in early game. This change would make towers polarize even more and render useless towers even more useless while some strong towers would get OP in more nische situations.

I think you misunderstood.

Once again.

Right now if you delete a building you get 90% void return, no matter if it has 100% hitpoints remaining or 1%. That means that it does not make a difference for a player if he deals damage to a tower or not, because the enemy will get back 90% anyways. 

That means a Phase Tower (60 power) returns 54 power and 6 power is lost.

With my proposal it's different.

A Phase tower only returns 45 power.

If it has 100% health upon delete it refunds 30 power in your pool and 15 in void

If it has 10% health it refunds only 3 power and 42 in void

Each tower/building loss hits ~ 2.5 times harder than in current battleforge. So each destroyed tower is just as bad as loosing two tier 1 units. 

This alone makes mass tower spam unattractive. And building offensive towers is even more risky because you'll loose 15 - 30 power per building if it's destroyed while under construction.

 

 

Edited by DarcReaver

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3 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

I think you misunderstood.

Once again.

Right now if you delete a building you get 90% void return, no matter if it has 100% hitpoints remaining or 1%.

That means a Phase Tower (60 power) returns 54 power and 6 power is lost.

With my proposal it's different.

A Phase tower only returns 45 power in total.

If it has 100% health upon delete it refunds 30 power in your pool and 15 in void

If it has 10% health it refunds only 3 power and 42 in void

Each tower/building loss hits ~ 3 times harder than in current battleforge. This alone makes mass tower spam unattractive. And building offensive towers is even more risky because you'll loose 15 - 30 power per building if it's destroyed while under construction.

 

 

I understood your proposal. Could you answer my question?

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29 minutes ago, Navarr said:

I understood your proposal. Could you answer my question?

Easy thing.

You have 2 spots on the map with power wells. On spot 1 you have your army and at spot 2 you spawn 2 cannon towers for defense.

Your opponent sees that and goes t3 and summons 2 Tremors..

Result in current Battleforge: 

You delete your towers and get back 63 void power over 2 minutes. Result : a lost Power Well because you couldn't react fast enough because not enough energy for defense or teching up to t3 yourself. 

In my proposal:

You delete your two full health cannon towers, get back 35 energy x 2 + 17 from void. You can go to t3 a few seconds later and able to spawn a t3 unit yourself for protection. Alternatively you can spawn some other unit and apply pressure to prevent 1 Tremor. 

 

Alternative scenario:

A shadow player rushes your base, and while doing that proceeds to teleport 2 phase towers to your base.

You manage to destroy 1 Tower and the 2nd tower has to be deleted at 20% health.

Result in current Battleforge:

The opponend looses 12 power permanently and 108 go to void. 

In my proposal:

The opponent looses 30 power permanently and 88 power go to void.

This is a 5-6 tier 1 unit advantage for the defending player.

Third scenario:

Frost player tries to cannon tower rush a fire player

5 Cannon Towers are placed throughout the rush, 4 of them are destroyed with eruptions and unit focus fire. 5th tower lasts a couple shots and is destroyed aswell

4 x 70 x 0,25 = 70 power lost in total. The 5th tower adds up to 87 power lost. And only 210 power go to void.

In current BF the tower rusher only looses 28 - 35 power while 252 - 315 power go to void.

In general:

If he tries to tower rush for an extended time frame the defending player will be able to spawn more and more units for defense and aquire a much larger advantage compared to current battleforge, where destroying towers does almost nothing.

Last example in PVE:

Player decides to defend his tier 1 base against twilight units with a couple towers. 
The game progresses and the attacks on tier 1 base stop. Player can delete his buildings and build a couple units for attack on a base. I agree that this bonus is not that significant, but pve is not the main focus of this idea.

In general the player using buildings will have a lot less void return rates than the player spawning units.

Edited by DarcReaver

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On 11/12/2018 at 8:52 PM, DarcReaver said:

I hope you understand that the buildings still bind 100% of their power as long as they're standing on the map, right? The refund only applies when the building is demolished, and even then only if it's hitpoints are high. Demolishing a 10% remaining health Primal Defender (60 Power) will not refund 30 power but 3 power and the rest going to void, with 15 Power lost permanently.
...
This power loss will quickly add up and result in a lot of lost power.

On 11/12/2018 at 8:52 PM, DarcReaver said:

My proposal is a direct nerf to cheap building spam tactics like Phase Towers because they will only give back 75% of their original cost compared to 90%. the difference is quite large. With my proposal the destruction of 1 Phase Tower hurts the Phase Tower spammer as much as you'd destroy 3 Phase Towers in regular Battleforge. And damaging a tower to 10% health will result in 90% of those 75% power going to void - unavailable for the Phase spammer for 2 minutes.

I want to provide constructive criticism, I really do. But you are contradicting yourself in every second paragraph. First you are implying that it's bad how much power is lost when building>demolishing>rebuilding (which nobody does anyways) and then you are saying that with your suggestion it would be even more power permanently lost...
How does that even make sense to you?

And yes, of course I know that buildings bind 100% power while standing. It's the same with units you know? And you get part of that back into your power pool if you demolish them yourself during construction which is completely fine. I don't see what your deal is with that.

Considering your poll I can't see this topic as much more than troll so I'm very sorry but I will not be continuing in this discussion.

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edit*

Units can move. Buildings cannot. So to counter a building you just avoid it by going around it. That's why buildings are considered useless. And if you decide to delete it yourself you'll only get back void power with a large delay. This removes your flexibility even more because you can't re-use the power when your building has been avoided. That is bad - you have less flexibility because buildings cannot move. And then you have to wait a long time to be able to re-use the power.

That's why full health buildings should refund energy instantly.

Units can move around. Therefor they can move around the map and take objectives -> do not give back instant power, instead the power goes to void.
Buildings cannot move around or take objectives -> they do give back power instantly (depending on hitpoints).

That way building usage becomes more flexible. You can build a building, delete or reposition it and/or use the leftover power to react to your enemy. You can build some defensive structures - if your enemy reacts and builds another orb or plays passively you can destroy your builldings and use the power to get another power well for example, or an orb yourself without having to wait 2 mins for the void power to trickle back in. 

To prevent everybody just plastering the map with lots and lots of buildings the amount of power refunded is lower compared to actually using units. Furthermore the larger void power loss is the tradeoff for building being immune to CC and have more hitpoints than a regular unit. And - as a side effect - using towers for offensive rushing is more risky because the attacker has to dedicate more power losses in case the rush is defended and/or towers are destroyed during construction.

Right now fighting against buildings with 90% void regain is a dumb move because you'll most likely loose more power than your enemy. Furthermore there is no difference if the building is damaged down to 10% health or 90% health, the enemy will still regain 90% to his void pool.

What's so hard to understand about that?

PS: The numbers are debatable and can be determined by playtests.

Edited by DarcReaver

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I can just repeat myself. This change would make the overall gameplay less attractive. Buildings provide long, slow and boring games and that change doesn't do anything against that. If 2 players are in T2 on even terms and one of them choses to pick up buildings, the other player isn't forced to attack at all. He just takes another powerwell ... and wins of that. Because the building user has 60-80 power bound in his building and can't snowball that into an attack. Even if he destroys it with the change, some power still remains in the void and the permanent power loss shrinks the timewindow to destroy the power well. So in the end the building user ends up being down in power wells and will be outscaled in a slow game. If he tries to pick up wells by himself he opens up more clusters, that need to be defended with buildings too (otherwise you can't compensate the power deficite) and sudeently you are down 2 power wells. If buildings become part of the meta, you will see bigger T3s to translate scaling advantages and cards like Lost Vigil to outrange buildings in T3 and set up big sieges with no counterplay. And as I already said, pure Fire just completely circumvents any building buffs, as they can use Firedancer to outrange them in T2. This makes the strongest deck in this entire game apparently stronger. Is this a useful change for the currenct balancing state? No. The majority of buildings should be balanced around PvE and not PvP.  

Treim likes this

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On 11/12/2018 at 8:52 PM, DarcReaver said:

I hope you understand that the buildings still bind 100% of their power as long as they're standing on the map, right?

 

On 11/13/2018 at 11:09 AM, DarcReaver said:

I think you misunderstood.

Once again.

 

On 11/13/2018 at 11:31 AM, DarcReaver said:

Easy thing.

 

17 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

What's so hard to understand about that? 

I don't know why but when you start or end pretty much each of your responses in a condescending manner like this it just makes everyone annoyed and less likely to actually be open about the idea which may or may not be bad. I am pretty certain everyone so far (that is excluding me and you) is a far more experienced player than either of us and asking them if they know how the game works to me seems like a pathetic insult. That said, here is my something to the point -->

Simply said, I am against this. It is not a bad idea because it could make things more interesting in PvP, no - truth be told, some of your points aren't bad, like more punishment for bad placement (even though it isn't as simple, but whatever). I am against this idea mostly because it makes the game a lot more confusing for new players and harder to keep an eye on for players who are experienced. Right now all good PvP players know full well how much Power is returned to them after a unit dies, how VP works, what actions refund power and what doesn't - it's all either 0%, 90% or 100%, all of which is simple and straight forward. However having to calculate this Power change by remembering max HP (which is often dependent on upgrade level), then the current HP, approximating it to round a 10% divisible number for easier calculation and splitting it between permanently lost and Void returned power is just not fitting the current good playstyle where the rules are clear for card abilities, unit/building deaths, spell usage etc. Not to mention the vast amounts of cards that manipulate Void Power in both positive and negative ways for players, and limiting Void Power would make them less useful.

You said you are most concerned about PvP but buildings are mostly used in PvE for a good reason and you can't just disregard that. This would be op in PvE where after not moving to another area and demolishing other buildings you get a faster boost from that with your method. Rather than having to wait for your 90% of VP return to flow to your usable Power, you get some immediately which allows you to advance faster. PvE and PvP is very nicely balanced as is and boosting either of those in other to balance the other one can have unforeseeable implications on the overall balance of that mode.

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The argument about "too confusing for new players" is not valid tbh.

New players who play pvp will notice that they a) need to grind hundreds of hours to get the necessary lvl 3 card upgrades and b) will get stomped by meta deck players because the majority of other cards is unviable. That's why most new players will leave the game after a short time anyways. Simply because they cannot play the card combinations they want to play in pvp because they're unviable. Void power mechanics are completely negligible for that matter. All a new player needs to know is that he gets back a part of his power when one of his units dies and that the rate of void power gain depends on how much total void power he has.

Infact, most new players spend lots of power on power wells because they think it'll give them an advantage with increased power gain rate and they don't know that 100 power is lost when the well is destroyed. This is just as confusing to new player yet ignored because all experienced players know it.

Argument about "it's either 0%, 90% or 100%" is wrong aswell. Spells give back 80% afaik (at least if that has not been changed post release of lost souls). I also don't see the issue with the different numbers in general. If you can calculate 80% of 75, 90% of 50 etc. you can just aswell calculate 75% from 100.

The numbers I stated were not set in stone. Infact I originally made my calculations with 70% instant return on full health for buildings, maybe that would be fine aswell. I just tuned the numbers to avoid useless "lol OP" posts. The whole thing would need to be playtested of course. And I also do not see the issue with PvE. If you decide to keep relocating your defenses multiple times you'll loose more power, and even if you gain back instant power I see this as a tradeoff. Also PVE has different issues that are much worse. Ranging from map scriipt bugs (like crusade door bug), Amii monument destroying certain map win conditions etc..

About pvp : yes, it is balanced, but only around a selected amount of meta cards. The rest of the cards is useless because they're much inferior in most aspects. Furthermore the majority of decks used involves CC spam fests - be it nature-fire, frost-nature and shadow-frost with the sole aim to down power wells while the enemy army is oinked-rooted-dazed-sleeping-frozen. This isn't thrilling either.

Edited by DarcReaver

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