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Karl Lavafeld

nerf amii monument

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@Irysunna
Convoy all-time record is5:52 or 5:54, so thats quite a big time difference. The 7:10 might not be signicantly slower in the grand scheme of things, but at least you had to actually clear all the necassaary monuments :)

Also i don't want people to play with the Gen1 cards but just play the map without skipping t4 base(unless they want to stay t3 which is totally viable on some maps). As you mentioned there are other very good cards nowadays that will still make the map way easier than they originally were.

 

Edited by Treim

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While I agree with most points stated in this thread, nerfing amii monument is only a small part of what most people want to achieve. There are several cards which are at least not worse at skipping t4, these include batariel, frenetic assault and infect. And there are lots of other PvE-oriented cards that are simply too good for what they do like mutating frenzy.

I don't think there is a thing called balance when talking about PvE. There are two main outcomes of nerfing such cards. First of all, you change the rules of speedrun competition and second, you make it harder for those who don't give a damn about PvE but still need to farm gold and upgrades.

All in all, if you wanna change amii, you need to change all the hi-end PvE meta at once, remove the old records and let the scene breath anew. However, I don't think we are ready for those changes yet, as the game is still being explored and new records are set every month. But when it comes to bringing it back alive, then yes, that's the perfect option.

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9 hours ago, Navarr said:

To add to this, many cards from the core edition have been nerfed very hard since then. Surge of Light, Tremor, Silverwind Lancer, Home Soil, Wildfire, etc - the list is pretty long ^^

Iirc, phenomic was "balancing" things in order from older to newer, so the game must have shut down before many cards got a revision? 

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1 hour ago, Kallion said:

Iirc, phenomic was "balancing" things in order from older to newer, so the game must have shut down before many cards got a revision? 

You seem to be pretty new to this game - balancing cards was (and should be) a normal process in battleforge. Cards like Treespirit, Deep one, Voidstorm etc got all changed.

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23 hours ago, Kubik said:

Wasn't that already been fixed? :thinking:

It's not fixed, it still is the gold farming paradise as an expert run just takes 10-13mins. 

 

 

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On 2/9/2019 at 5:22 AM, darklionking said:

You seem to be pretty new to this game - balancing cards was (and should be) a normal process in battleforge. Cards like Treespirit, Deep one, Voidstorm etc got all changed.

No, i am not new and i don't see why being one has anything to do with knowing how phenomic was balancing cards. You probably are new if you didn't know that they did not tackle all the cards at the same time but went by time of release, starting with the oldest ones first. Sure all of them received changes but that is only daily balance for obvious things with thoughts like "mmm nope, this one is too expensive/cheap/powerful/weak", but big ones went from oldest to newest. Heck if i remember my game updating every time due to that during the last year it was running.

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Well i think this topic is  a bit mislleading in fact i think amii monument is only the tip of the mountain.....

The Problem when trying to balance Competetive pve eg speedruns and record hunting is obvious. There will always be 1 best strategy resulting in it beeing "op" compared to everything else. This does hit pve way harder than pvp since there is no "metagame" its jsut 1 best way = low variance.

Also i think there is a significant diffrence between something beeing overpowerd and something beeing "broken". For me i would consider stuff like lss or buffed up batariel "overpowered" since it does clear faster than prob every other strategy while there are still other ways to get the same result just way slower. I however would consider amii monument broken it opens up new tactics which are impossible to repicate in any other way.

however i feel like there are some more equaly broken mechanics for pve.

First of all there is the funneling strategy which saves insane amounts of time just by evolving  3 persons t1 energy into t4 energy with only the 4. person to actually spend power on monuments

enlightment is another candidate...

tbh almost all speedruns do abuse some if not  all of those problematic mechanics not even mentioning various ways of void manipulation and i thik this is fine i dont think there is a actual way to balacne cards like amii monument either its op or useless. Im case it would get nerfed i guess the palyers would need some time to figure out if its still playable. If nnot screw it and the next card to nerf would be enlightment or decomposer or whatever.

From a non speedrunenr perspective i think the best way to break up the "boring" and "1 sided" pve meta would be monthly card restrictions or smtng. i would be intrested in the speedrunranking ladders if there was a monthly card restriction on lets say decomposer, shadow phoenix, sow, amii monument or some other crucial cards. I think this would actually require some new strats, creativety and would generate variance. Just starting to nerf card after card can not be the solution!

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Just ban certain cards from speedruns if you want, like most other speedruns in games. There's no reason to rebalance the whole game just because you feel like it's "cheap" or "makes the game too easy". Just don't use that card if you think that and you'll lose nothing by not playing it, while others that want to use it will lose nothing by it not being changed. I feel the same can be said for any card really.

"The game is too easy with x card" is just competitive whining when you can easily just not use x card.

EDIT: And for future reference, saying "Kind regards" or something like that at the end of your post doesn't excuse you for anything excessively negative you said above it.

Edited by Titan
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14 hours ago, Titan said:

Just ban certain cards from speedruns if you want, like most other speedruns in games. There's no reason to rebalance the whole game just because you feel like it's "cheap" or "makes the game too easy". Just don't use that card if you think that and you'll lose nothing by not playing it, while others that want to use it will lose nothing by it not being changed. I feel the same can be said for any card really.

"The game is too easy with x card" is just competitive whining when you can easily just not use x card.

EDIT: And for future reference, saying "Kind regards" or something like that at the end of your post doesn't excuse you for anything excessively negative you said above it.

Man whats wrong with you. What u say about amii monument is your opinion ok but you say i m not allowed to write Kind regards is just redicolous.

I suggested to nerf a card. For you that is negative, and forbids me to say Kind regards. What have you ever done for the community?

I made about 10 communitymaps. You can play my maps with amii but not think its balanced for that. All my balance test i would never use amii.

Kind regards

( Its a term of politeness)

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18 hours ago, Titan said:

Just ban certain cards from speedruns if you want, like most other speedruns in games. There's no reason to rebalance the whole game just because you feel like it's "cheap" or "makes the game too easy". Just don't use that card if you think that and you'll lose nothing by not playing it, while others that want to use it will lose nothing by it not being changed. I feel the same can be said for any card really.

"The game is too easy with x card" is just competitive whining when you can easily just not use x card.

EDIT: And for future reference, saying "Kind regards" or something like that at the end of your post doesn't excuse you for anything excessively negative you said above it.

If the devs of Battleforge had that opinion then Battleforge would had never get any balance patch ever. Because when the Juggernaut would be able to kill every unit with 2 strikes and you find that unfair and cheap and you dont like him because of that, then dont use him Right? PvP would be an mess, if new Cards are too op and you dislike the braindead playstyle of that, dont use this op Cards. Of Course you will lose probably every PvP game if you dont use this crazy op Cards. Because everyone would use powerfull Cards over lame Cards. But hey if you dont like them dont use it!

Who cares About balance, dont Change any Card please. Lets make the game just like you remember as an kid, it is unfair if you could not use your favourite op Cards and make more useless Cards more viable. You are used to that Card it would be an Miracle if we would implement more tacticts that would increase diversity. Lets just Keep everything like it is now, i mean Change is bad Right?

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On 2/15/2019 at 5:20 AM, Venomlord said:

If the devs of Battleforge had that opinion then Battleforge would had never get any balance patch ever. Because when the Juggernaut would be able to kill every unit with 2 strikes and you find that unfair and cheap and you dont like him because of that, then dont use him Right? PvP would be an mess, if new Cards are too op and you dislike the braindead playstyle of that, dont use this op Cards. Of Course you will lose probably every PvP game if you dont use this crazy op Cards. Because everyone would use powerfull Cards over lame Cards. But hey if you dont like them dont use it!

Who cares About balance, dont Change any Card please. Lets make the game just like you remember as an kid, it is unfair if you could not use your favourite op Cards and make more useless Cards more viable. You are used to that Card it would be an Miracle if we would implement more tacticts that would increase diversity. Lets just Keep everything like it is now, i mean Change is bad Right?

It's not about not balancing, but everyone talks as if "balance" is making Amii Monument or whatever card completely useless by making something cost so much that it's not even viable in PvE, nevermind PvP; Let me tell you, that's not balance. This kind of talk is the reason why there's completely useless cards now, like Mortar Tower or Mindweaver for example. You have to take into account that not everyone plays at the same skill level and extremely nerfing cards that (while it might be a crutch) they need to do a singleplayer map should be out of the question; Also not everyone plays PvP and while it would be nice to have a separate balance between the 2, it's just not something EA ever implemented so you have to balance for both.

@Karl Lavafeld, maybe you misread, but I never said "you can't use kind regards". Saying "... "learn to play" lol. And what u say is just wrong. Just read the posts before then u learn something." then saying "Kind regards" is ironic and can come off as provoking or ignorant. And you can calm down with the "What have you ever done for the community?" defensive e-peen flexing bullshit.

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To make clear.

Somebody else sayd "learn to play before u make a post like this" I just quoted and added a lol. I didn't make that clear enough. 

I say "What u say is wrong" referred to the statement its useless card. It's nearly always useful unless u can't find a free slot for it. Cause u at least save bound Energy. 

With "What have you ever done for the community?" I want make clear that I plan exactly the opposite of destroy the game balance. But the level designer point of view keeps being ignored from most of the people. Never the less I apologize for the little overstatement. 

People were for example called retarded, learn to play or u want to destroy the card for support the nerf suggestion. 

Please let's come back to less emotions and mostly less flame and more arguments. 

Kind regards 

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On 11/6/2018 at 2:39 PM, Karl Lavafeld said:

Hi all,

i make it short.

Amii monument needs to be nerfed. It binds less power then a regular monument. So its allways better in pve to build an amii monument then a regular monument, and u dont have to clear the regular monument and u dont need t3 units at all. Like it is now imho its like cheat. Even if it would cost  500 to build it plus activation cost 300 people would still play it. I suggest to make the energy costs like this.

Pls take it into consideration for after the final release.

Kind Regards

 

With all due respect, but this is the biggest nonsense I've heard in a while.

500 power to build and 300 power to activate? Right, have fun in RPVE building Amii and finishing the map on time in 2 players and 4 players maps on levels 9 and 10 difficulty with such power costs. You are simply speaking from a PVE campaign perspective where time matters little to none because you are the one who controls the flow of the time there and can trigger certain events more or less when you want. In PVP Amii is a nonfactor.

A game that is in dire need of new players and you want to nerf the very card that still adds a little variety to RPVE T4 and makes Expert maps (which are overtuned and gimmicky to unedible levels) a little less problematic?

I swear some of you are more concerned in what you'd prefer yourselves rather than thinking what's objectively better for the game.

 

All I can read in here is "I can clear all Expert maps without Amii I'm pissed others do it with Amii therefore I want Amii nerfed. What's best for the game lol? Ain't nobody got time for that".

 

TL;DR Don't touch Amii.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Crimsonite said:

 

With all due respect, but this is the biggest nonsense I've heard in a while.

500 power to build and 300 power to activate? Right, have fun in RPVE building Amii and finishing the map on time in 2 players and 4 players maps on levels 9 and 10 difficulty with such power costs. You are simply speaking from a PVE campaign perspective where time matters little to none because you are the one who controls the flow of the time there and can trigger certain events more or less when you want. In PVP Amii is a nonfactor.

A game that is in dire need of new players and you want to nerf the very card that still adds a little variety to RPVE T4 and makes Expert maps (which are overtuned and gimmicky to unedible levels) a little less problematic?

I swear some of you are more concerned in what you'd prefer yourselves rather than thinking what's objectively better for the game.

 

All I can read in here is "I can clear all Expert maps without Amii I'm pissed others do it with Amii therefore I want Amii nerfed. What's best for the game lol? Ain't nobody got time for that".

 

TL;DR Don't touch Amii.

According to someone of a staff, no all at the same time, one day concluded 1k player, and 1 week maybe 4k+, many player have left cause of the crash and such when it was introduce and we are not in the release, i myself stop promoting for player to come in and play vs play test the server, with all due respect... we are in the test server not the [insert word desire] playing server.. 

so the "A game that is in dire need of new players"  jesus hearing this made me facepalm harder, i have spoke with those yellow name on discord.. guess what i said do we have some sort of advertising, but we dont need advertising, not with all these crashes which will send alot of people away because they think we are in a playing live  vs testing, even worst when they get hit with the wipe... and yes there will be wipe.

there are still thing we need before we can go live https://trello.com/b/4HFfIUCA/skylords-reborn and many are under the delusions that there is no wipe , which i corrected by showing them the open stress word and some of the word on discord...

Balance card is one of them...  the person above you made his valid point and you just made your valid point and here comes mine but i will use your words so keep it even starting with

"With all due respect, but this is the biggest nonsense I've heard in a while."

Your rpve cannot be done without amii? Jesus i have done 9 and 10 without amii or enlightenment in all 3 cases, 1, 2 , 4...   When i didnt use amii i used lost horror.. and when i got amii, i took lost horror out...however, because everyone uses wheel and mo i didnt even need to go t2 i stick with t1s with  my partner and without the wheel or mo we just go in t3 [i use 2 lost horror green aff and it's all good, when going in nature frost i just use 2 aggressor and 5 crystal fiend with my partner, whoever it may be]...

 

If you would like see what will ever happen to amii there is a discord where representative are talking about it, it will be run through kubik and he will make the final decision [i think that how it will work].. enjoy your gaming

 

 

*edit*  3:30pm

8/9/2019

 


KubikToday at 3:24 PM
@ppak weekly we have ~4k players, daily ~1k players and peak under 200 players (most days)

Edited by Dion
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10 hours ago, Crimsonite said:

A game that is in dire need of new players and you want to nerf the very card that still adds a little variety to RPVE T4

How exactly does amii monument add variety in T4? If you want to say it makes 5 orb decks possible, this maybe the case but nobody does that, haven't seen it in hundred of rPVEs.

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Posted (edited)

if they change the amii monument to get it when u beat all maps on expert as an achievement , u know how to beat that maps without amii , so why u shouldn use it to make that battles faster u already won ? but wenn its only avialbe in very last endgame , everyone should be aviable to build it then on a map...  so maybe remove legendary kind type but add a build limit : 1 per player

 

Edited by DieBieneMaya

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Its very simple for me and also for the majority of the pve community:

 

Why should always one player be in the luxury to completely overgo t3 cards and enemy camps on the way to t4?

The main pve community is for sure for an nerf since its not fair for the other players if their fun in their gameplay gets destroyed because of one player in the group clearing everything on the way to t4 with already t4 cards. Thats a massive intervention in the gameplay of other players since you have to go many ways to the t4 baseclusters together and the most of the normal pve players for sure dont want this massive intervention and single handedly gameplay of one player.

The only balancing change can be to make this card t4 and then it will be a great addition to for example completely pure colour decks like for example pure shadow which is great to splash to 1 nature in order to use some heals to squishy shadow t4.


The only group that dont want to make Amii Monument T4 is the smallest group of the community - the speedrunners.

So i can claim that the majority for sure wants to see Amii Monument T4.

 

So i say to the community representatives: Please add this change to the future voting.

Edited by Deldrimor

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50 minutes ago, Deldrimor said:

Its very simple for me and also for the majority of the pve community:

 

Why should always one player be in the luxury to completely overgo t3 cards and enemy camps on the way to t4?

The main pve community is for sure for an nerf since its not fair for the other players if their fun in their gameplay gets destroyed because of one player in the group clearing everything on the way to t4 with already t4 cards. Thats a massive intervention in the gameplay of other players since you have to go many ways to the t4 baseclusters together and the most of the normal pve players for sure dont want this massive intervention and single handedly gameplay of one player.

The only balancing change can be to make this card t4 and then it will be a great addition to for example completely pure colour decks like for example pure shadow which is great to splash to 1 nature in order to use some heals to squishy shadow t4.


The only group that dont want to make Amii Monument T4 is the smallest group of the community - the speedrunners.

So i can claim that the majority for sure wants to see Amii Monument T4.

 

So i say to the community representatives: Please add this change to the future voting.

The rep= speedrunner/pvp not core pve that looks as a mechanical even heard one rep saying that casual has no important in saying , yet casual [aot of them] does have the mentallity to look at the game in a mechanical way. you already see one of the problem that is easy and common to understand i also seen the one i mention on the proposal  .. yes of course card that affect any speedrun will try to later in a some sense if the alternation isnt hitting speedrun fast.. and example of this is ship, not only is easy for speed run bg 10 15minute but ofcourse its to easy for let say casual to use it in teh same way thus they [speedrun] want it in a way that is more skill used so they have the better reward of using it vs casual player, not once do they [except to the one who is not a speedrun that i have talked] seen it in a mechanical way why the card was invented for the lost soul deck... [speedrun=speedrun mentality] [casual=mechanical mentality] and we dont have true representative that cover it[I dont want to show screen shot but there are some rep that also agree that there arent any real PVE representative,  and yes speedrun is pve side but they dont cover the whole mentality of the mechanic]..

 

although iwould vote for your t4 option, im positive some vote can be manipulated by calling friend to attack such suggestion because it heavily affect speedrunner [imnot a speedrunner btw]

 

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Maybe someone can close this post and we can shift the discussion to the balance proposal post only (linked above by Dion). There are already way too many places people discuss this.

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1 minute ago, LEBOVIN said:

Maybe someone can close this post and we can shift the discussion to the balance proposal post only (linked above by Dion). There are already way too many places people discuss this.

@Kubik @fiki574 @anymod?

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