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Karl Lavafeld

nerf amii monument

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Amii monument being T3 is where it should be. First, it takes up a precious slot in your deck, second, it does cost more upfront investment to get to T4 than actual T4, it doesn't entirely obsolete your T3, since you still need to be able to survive until you can pop it, and then survive the investment, it also doesn't provide you with additional energy supply like breaking through to your actual T4 would. The card requires quite some skill to use effectively, and a very good player to make it even remotely "gamebreaking" (except encounters with twilight and soultree, but who cares). The fact that there can be only 1 on a map prevents most abuse cases (and screws over decks that solely relied on AM).

The card can be balanced further though, like slightly increasing the cost of picking an orb, or introducing an additional tradeoff, like 10% slower void power recycling as long as an the monument is in existence. Putting this card in T4 would render it trash instantly (except for maybe casting enlightenment -> amii monument and angrily holding out a middle finger to all those who advocated this solution).

Mak, nofearek9 and wertyy like this

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1 hour ago, wibryz said:

Amii monument being T3 is where it should be. First, it takes up a precious slot in your deck, second, it does cost more upfront investment to get to T4 than actual T4, it doesn't entirely obsolete your T3, since you still need to be able to survive until you can pop it, and then survive the investment, it also doesn't provide you with additional energy supply like breaking through to your actual T4 would. The card requires quite some skill to use effectively, and a very good player to make it even remotely "gamebreaking" (except encounters with twilight and soultree, but who cares). The fact that there can be only 1 on a map prevents most abuse cases (and screws over decks that solely relied on AM).

The card can be balanced further though, like slightly increasing the cost of picking an orb, or introducing an additional tradeoff, like 10% slower void power recycling as long as an the monument is in existence. Putting this card in T4 would render it trash instantly (except for maybe casting enlightenment -> amii monument and angrily holding out a middle finger to all those who advocated this solution).

Fighting a twilight Dragon with t3 units is more challlenging than fighting it with a bloodhorn + regrowth. Or Jorne + Life Weaving. Rifle Cultists can annihilate whole creep camps with their grenade. Unholy hero triples regular units' damage etc.

Even if t4 needs to be reached, in PvE you can easily use a defensive deck to protect your Amii Monument, and once you're t4 you can annihilate most camps without much of an issue. The only time this does not work is when you're against the clock, which is pretty rare.

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On 11/22/2018 at 1:56 PM, Karl Lavafeld said:

WoW u use retarded as a swearword. Didnt hear that in a long time. T4 binds 300 power not 100 so its more than amii monument.

 

Kind Regards

Let me specify, when you take T4 you pay 300 power for T4 itself and 100 power for monument, you lose monument you lose 100 power, you build new one you pay 100 power.

You have T3 and build monument, you bind 240 power. Then its 140 power for each switch, power going into void. You are still on T3, if you lose Amii monument and you want to get to T4, you have to pay 300. Its ofc stupid to place amii monument in a place where you can lose it.

And I acually use Amii Monument for getting Shrine of War into 2 green 1 black 1 blue deck.

Edited by Mak

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I remember playing amii monument on maps like the one you had to guard treasure vehicles (convoy?) or the defense one with 3 starting orbs (defending hope?). I ignored a huge portion of the map on the first one and the WHOLE map on the second one. Monuments are important resources and I don't think you should be allowed to create them. I never liked how it incentivized skipping content like some cheat code.

When it was first introduced I thought it was some kind of monument improvement; put it on a monument you control and it'll allow you to change orbs without having to rebuild. I think that would have been a lot cooler since it would allow crazy mixed color decks while having obvious downsides. Also wouldn't have the problem that it being 4th tier would have (enlightenment) in case of a card change.

Edited by Ggoblin
Missed a letter.
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Amii monument works for 5 orb strategies and/or people who really put an effort on optimizing times. For everyone else it is a deadweight/useless card, no reason to do anything to it.

You beat strategies with another strategy, not crying about nerfing or deleting a card. Learn to play before starting a post like this, there's a thousand ways to do things properly, and this one is not.

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1 minute ago, Kallion said:

Amii monument works for 5 orb strategies and/or people who really put an effort on optimizing times. For everyone else it is a deadweight/useless card, no reason to do anything to it.

You beat strategies with another strategy, not crying about nerfing or deleting a card. Learn to play before starting a post like this, there's a thousand ways to do things properly, and this one is not.

You seem to be pretty new here :P

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To the forums, yes, to the game, not so new, and to tcgs, certainly not. This is not unique to this game, it also happens in many others; overly-powerful advantages (not counting stacking, glitching or bugs) exist for sure, but they all have a weakness or disadvantage that can be exploited by some strategy. In this case, making an extra orb with less power; it is not impossible to beat, but if people lose because they can't think of a way to do it, they get frustrated and ultimately start blaming the cards themselves.

Say, if you shoot a gun and you miss, are you going to blame the gun? Guns shouldn't exist because you miss your shots with them? No, you learn to shoot properly, and a good starting point is to not shoot with your feet.

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20 minutes ago, Kallion said:

To the forums, yes, to the game, not so new, and to tcgs, certainly not. This is not unique to this game, it also happens in many others; overly-powerful advantages (not counting stacking, glitching or bugs) exist for sure, but they all have a weakness or disadvantage that can be exploited by some strategy. In this case, making an extra orb with less power; it is not impossible to beat, but if people lose because they can't think of a way to do it, they get frustrated and ultimately start blaming the cards themselves.

Say, if you shoot a gun and you miss, are you going to blame the gun? Guns shouldn't exist because you miss your shots with them? No, you learn to shoot properly, and a good starting point is to not shoot with your feet.

Is this allready offencive. I´d say yes. "learn to play" lol. And what u say is just wrong. Just read the posts before then u learn something.

Kind regards

Edited by Karl Lavafeld
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6 minutes ago, Karl Lavafeld said:

Is this allready offencive. I´d say yes. "learn to play" lol. Man this is a frindly community not maybe like your old rts where u are so familiar with.

And what u say is just wrong. Just read the posts before then u learn something about this rts.

Kind regards

If it is offensive to you, then bad for you, it is a game no need to feel offended. But this is what happens when you start blaming the tool and not the user. I am being friendly by telling you to not think of modifying the game to suit your needs and instead, figure out ways to beat it with the options the game itself offers you, and there are plenty of them. 

Edited by Kallion
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Blame the game not the player? I literally said the opposite. Why would you blame the game? It is easy to put the blame on anything that's not yourself.
 

Also, this is not an opinion, it is a fact that you want to change the game because you cant beat it. Try thinking of an strategy to counter it and you will see it isn't a big deal and you were whinning for nothing. 

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54 minutes ago, Kallion said:

I am being friendly

No, you're not. You come across as angry and condescending. i'm tired of reading the same ,,learn to play'' worded differently ten times, why don't you learn to engage in debates in a respectful, factual manner? Nobody buys your opinions as facts just because you declare them as such.

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Just now, SunWu II. said:

No, you're not. You come across as angry and condescending. i'm tired of reading the same ,,learn to play'' worded differently ten times, why don't you learn to engage in debates in a respectful, factual manner? Nobody buys your opinions as facts just because you declare them as such.


Yes, i am. Because it is literally the need to learn to play the game even further when frustrated people start blaming the game because they cant deal with it. It's not enough with just having big units or big nukes, some strategies demand actual effort to be figured out and thought of, that is what learning to play the game is. Apologies if it looks condescending, but it is offensive to the people who put an effort, learn the tricks of the game and figure out ways to deal with challenges when someone who can't do that comes and asks for the game to be softened up just so they can. Learn to play is not an insult, being lazy and stomping on other's effort is.

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Just now, Kallion said:


Yes, i am. Because it is literally the need to learn to play the game even further when frustrated people start blaming the game because they cant deal with it.

So Treim for example is a frustrated player because he didn't learn to play the game? He's one of the, maybe the most experienced speedrunner in the forge. He made a lot of solid arguments against amii monument. Did you read them or did you just come here to vent, that's what it seems like to me. Your only argument is amii monumetn should stay as it is because people who want to nerf it are [insert condescending adjecives]. Nice.

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For one, i didnt use any condescending adjective. Secondly, learning the game is not restricted to the basics but also the advanced things, which is what im talking about here. This stuff has been tested and modified way back in the day by people getting paid for it with a way larger community and much more feedback so they are how they are for a reason. You can speedrun anything you want, doesn't change the fact that the amii monument doesnt need a nerf, it is not powerful nor overpowered, it is just another little piece that takes place in a bigger strategy. It is the strategy that is powerful but it is not flawless and you can beat it, you just have to figure out how, that's for pvp. As for pve, one card slot wasted on that might just be as powerful as it can be useless, some people can use it for something they find better, some don't and that goes different on each person, still don't see any need to nerf it. It is a choice to make, not something that has to be tailored for people, nor made redundant compared to things already existing, differences are there to make things different and that means for either the better or worse.

If you don't care about someone's opinion then you are welcome to ignore it. But it is offensive if you go out of your way and deviate from the main topic just to aggress me, while none of your comments were productive. Don't be condescending with people who can also make a solid argument against another solid argument, just accept it or not and leave it there. It is part of an argument to have a party saying yes and another saying no, no need to harass someone who doesnt agree with you.

Lastly, I don't need to convince you and change your mind, the comments will remain here and ultimately the current developers will take the decision of making or not the changes, of which we might not see any in quite some time as they are already busy with more important things like fixing bugs, making the game playable and trying to implement changes so that the game can work in the current situation, and they are not even getting paid for it. So no need to get all heated up either.

Edited by Kallion
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Okay, every nonsense aside:

- we're only talking PVE here, amii monument does not play a role in PVP

- i thought your argument was ,,people who want to nerf amii monument are inexperienced/want it easy/don't want to find better strategies''

- i countered that by saying Treim who has mine and your experience times ten is against amii monument, saying it actually destroys other strategies by making maps too easy

- stop mirroring me by saying i'm the condescending one, i didn't call people frustated and accused them of crying. it was you from your first post on.

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Alright, i'll use your format then

  • PvE in battleforge is planned from a:
    • RPG point of view, in which you simply follow the story of the game, not needing anything fantastic and you just have to go through the events having fun as they unveil.
    • Optimized point of view, in which you can go for higher difficulties for the sake of challenging yourself and further improve your cards. Meaning that while you are trying to get the best possible numbers you may encounter ways to do unrealistic things, like ridiculous amount of damage, skip mechanics, events and finish maps in time record. This point of view disregards anything resembling balance as people will just find and exploit any little opportunity they find to do it, this is one of the ways the game can be played and it is not wrong. There will always be something to exploit, that is until the dev team focus most of their brain capacity into properly balancing the game (which is something Phenomic was trying to do), but it needs to work and needs to be complete before even considering that.
       
  • Yes and no, i never said he was inexperienced, but I implied that he did not bear in mind the bigger picture. Anyone can focus on the smaller details, but it is how things fit in the big picture that those changes will make an effect on many other things. You change one piece, the whole thing changes, meaning more balance requests and more nerf this and that. Leaving things how they are until the game is complete, stable and working as it should will be better than doing this kind of things now. 
     
  • See my first point about disregarding mechanics.
     
  • Don't be overly sensible and stay on the topic. I'm not here for your emotions.
Edited by Kallion

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Where did i or anyone in this thread ever state that this has to happen now?
I simply stated that Amii-Monument is the most broken card, at least from an PvE perspective. I agree that balancing things out will take a lot of time and should not be done before finishing the game. That does not mean that possible changes can not be discussed within the community. To add onto that when starting to balance things out you should most definetly start with the most glaring problems which Amii-Monument is definetly one of. This does not mean that i even think it should be the first card to be tackled. PvP should get that honor as its the main competitive game mode.

The argument that everyone has the choice to play it is utter nonsense imo. Might as well add a card that instantly ends the game when hitting t3 and 500 power (as mentioned before) as you have the choice not to use it or find a way to beat the game even faster. After all creativity can beat anything right? Just find a better strategy and get good.

Matter of fact however is that Amii-Monument is necassary for at least 80-90% of speedruns and speeds up the time considerably compared to playing without it. That in itself would have been fine if using the card took any skill at all, as in you have to fullfill certain requirements to use the card as is the case with many speedrun glitches in other games which often require crazy amounts of precise inputs, training etcetera. That is not the case while building Amiii-Monument.  Just plop it down and your instantly t4.

You can argue that thats just how it is and deal with it, well then why bother with balancing at all -> just deal with it :).

I am aware that this change will impact how maps are played and there are other problematic cards that are blatantly way too good compared to other cards in the game. You might say that is because all the other cards are to weak and we should buff those (or just say deal with it), but you should quickly realize that there is a couple of really strong cards and a lot of really weak cards with a decent amount somewhere around viable. I merely suggest that those cards that are way too good get turned down a notch and buff the weaker cards so that the spread of useability gets a lot smaller.

I don't really mind if there is cards that are generally stronger than others - that's just how it is, but the ones that are just so far ahead of anything else should be pushed down a bit to a reasonable level.



Also would you be kind enough to explain to me this bigger picture that you seem to be so knowledgable about? Seemingly fixing a card that circumvents map design by its own design and therefor forces players to play the map the way it was originally intended seems to not be everything. You can not possibly mean deck building because those maps were created with a lot less (and often) weaker cards in mind and were still beaten by people so it doesnt make the game unplayable either. While Amii opens up interesting deck builds such as playing t5 you could still do that with most of the changes proposed. So you can't mean those either. So please enlighten me as you seem to be very knowledgable about this bigger pciture you're talking about :)

Also which card do you propose should be up for balancing first if not Amii? Or is it all perfect as is and we should just work with it instead of trying to better the game?
 

Edited by Treim

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I completely agree with Trein. When we get to balancing cards, he will be one of players we know to have good reasoning, and can consider changes from the position of speed-runner too, so if he say it will break "at least 80-90% of speedruns and speeds up" I personally will be happy with it :P 

My personal opinion is that Amii monument should cost more power, but I do not know how much more I have more important things to do that calculate that.

10 hours ago, Treim said:

I agree that balancing things out will take a lot of time and should not be done before finishing the game. That does not mean that possible changes can not be discussed within the community.

so fell free to continue discussion and come to good solution :) 

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First of all I want to summarize some information about the Amii Monument as alot of arguments here are based on some missconceptions. 

 

1. Void Level

Amii Monument (U3) shrinks your voidlevel by 264. If the building gets destroyed and you are forced to reconstruct it you lose 39 power out of your voidpool. 

Classic T4 shrinks your voidlevel by 300. If the building gets destroyed you lose 100 additional power to reconstruct. 

 

Additional Information:

- Amii Monument can be combined with Construction Hut to reduce the costs.  

- Amii Monument does not trigger the T4 entrance Barrier, so if you lose any orb you can't rebuild it as you need to spend 300 Power. In order to circumvent this you need to deactivate your Amii Monument, rebuild your orb as "T3 orb" and activate the Amii Monument again. This takes some time but reduces permanent power loss to 114.

- Temporary Power losses are irrelevant in PvE due to the easy access to void manipultion. This leads to alot of misscalculations.

 

2. The market question (why is Amii Monument not as expensive as some other rare cards?) 

First of all the Market doesn't reflect a cards strength perfectly. Some prices are inflated like the Shaman as he's somewhat of a fan favourite without being super essential for PvE.

You don't need charges in order to use an Amii Monument effectively as it is restricted to a single use anyways. This has great implications on the market as it reduces the demand. 

 

3. Stategic advantages 

- You don't need to fight for your T4 spot (which is heavily guarded on some maps)

- your permanent power loss is lower compared to normal T4

- As you skip T3, you can save multiple deck slots in your deck

- Since you can build Amii Monument at a save place, you usually don't need to defend it, which makes it easier to keep up with your economy. 

- Specific map conditions like soultree T5 are somewhat pointless

 

4. Can skill compensate the Amii advantages? 

- The most skilled PvE players rely on Amii Monument in order to get top speedrun times on more than 60 percent of the maps. Without Amii Monument you can't compete with the top times. The data from so many months of speedrunning are crystal-clear in that regard.

 

 

What change for Amii Monument is good from my perspecitve? 

- Increasing the bound power to a point where Amii Monument always ends up being more expensive than a classic T4 (400+). With that cost you would have a risk when playing the card while keeping its identity of granting early T4 access. In order to find a good power number it  requires some stat cost efficiency analysis aswell as some testing in the first place. Once you removed the global Amii abuse fest you could lower the cost of the active ability to support strategic diversity based on orb switching a little bit. 

 

Mirosius, Loriens, Navarr and 2 others like this

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7 minutes ago, RadicalX said:

- Specific map conditions like soultree T5 are somewhat pointless

Wasn't that already been fixed? :thinking:

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Honestly, there is a bunch of other things more important than making amii cost a little more just so people finish maps a couple of minutes slower.

Speedrunning isnt how the game it is intended to be played anyway, it is just a "challenge yourself to do it uber fast" and maximize the amount of runs you can make in one hour to farm gold (or heck, maybe just for the sake of doing it). So even if it "breaks" the game, it doesn't really matter and even if it was changed, people would find another way to exploit something else. This is no urgent matter and delaying other things just for this so that another one with the same title but a different card can pop up is unproductive. Let the devs finish making the game work first.

 

Edited by Kallion
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52 minutes ago, Kallion said:

Honestly, there is a bunch of other things more important than making amii cost a little more just so people finish maps a couple of minutes slower.

Speedrunning isnt how the game it is intended to be played anyway, it is just a "challenge yourself to do it uber fast" and maximize the amount of runs you can make in one hour to farm gold (or heck, maybe just for the sake of doing it). So even if it "breaks" the game, it doesn't really matter and even if it was changed, people would find another way to exploit something else. This is no urgent matter and delaying other things just for this so that another one with the same title but a different card can pop up is unproductive. Let the devs finish making the game work first.

 

Its Obvious that they can only balance the game after its working correctly. Still its important that all card are well balanced. Its good if they fix amii monument and its also good if the community find the next broken thing, which the devs can then also balance. With that cycle the game becomes at some point good enough balance wise.

And then we have an balanced game where more strategys are viable and there is no supreme god Card. Thats my dream at least.

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I agree with RadicalX and Treim on their analysis of the actual meta and the card, but i don't think it's that bad.

There is lots of map where Amii Monument is just like winning 20s to 5min. (Example : Convoy without Amii Monument we still can finish the map in 7:10 vs 6:50 with ?)...

Of course you'll need more skill to play maps without it, and like you all want to say : "The way they were designed to be played..."

Actually i remembered the beginning of BattleForge when you had only the 200 first cards, with just 2 upgrades/cards, and when you had to farm every specific map to win them. Expert Mode was SO INSANE, everyone were new players and map were so hard with old deck !

I don't really miss those day... Playing 1h30 to fail on a map was painful !
Grinding for upgrade 20 times/day on a 12 players maps when other side were failing T_T or when you don't have upgrade at the end...

For me "Upgrade level 3" brokes PvE long time ago : Nowadays Windweavers + Shaman can nearly finish every maps alone.

And today we have plenty of cards to break record : Nether Warp, BH, Bata... Nerf Amii Monument and then what ? Speedrunners will just be 20s-5min slower ?

But for new people you just forced them to learn the old way. I don't miss those day were i was obliged to run slowly. After playing 100 times on each map i'm happy to be able to cut the 4th orb sometimes. Less fail, less farm, no need to play hours and hours (i'm not in school anymore).

Moreover there will be a reset, more farm again and again.

You want to nerf cards ? Then Go release the Vanilla game ! Then wait 6 months between each extensions. That way maybe you will love to have Amii Monument.

For me it's a Gift for all those years of playing without it.

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1 hour ago, Irysunna said:

I agree with RadicalX and Treim on their analysis of the actual meta and the card, but i don't think it's that bad.

There is lots of map where Amii Monument is just like winning 20s to 5min. (Example : Convoy without Amii Monument we still can finish the map in 7:10 vs 6:50 with ?)...

Of course you'll need more skill to play maps without it, and like you all want to say : "The way they were designed to be played..."

Actually i remembered the beginning of BattleForge when you had only the 200 first cards, with just 2 upgrades/cards, and when you had to farm every specific map to win them. Expert Mode was SO INSANE, everyone were new players and map were so hard with old deck !

I don't really miss those day... Playing 1h30 to fail on a map was painful !
Grinding for upgrade 20 times/day on a 12 players maps when other side were failing T_T or when you don't have upgrade at the end...

For me "Upgrade level 3" brokes PvE long time ago : Nowadays Windweavers + Shaman can nearly finish every maps alone.

And today we have plenty of cards to break record : Nether Warp, BH, Bata... Nerf Amii Monument and then what ? Speedrunners will just be 20s-5min slower ?

But for new people you just forced them to learn the old way. I don't miss those day were i was obliged to run slowly. After playing 100 times on each map i'm happy to be able to cut the 4th orb sometimes. Less fail, less farm, no need to play hours and hours (i'm not in school anymore).

Moreover there will be a reset, more farm again and again.

You want to nerf cards ? Then Go release the Vanilla game ! Then wait 6 months between each extensions. That way maybe you will love to have Amii Monument.

For me it's a Gift for all those years of playing without it.

To add to this, many cards from the core edition have been nerfed very hard since then. Surge of Light, Tremor, Silverwind Lancer, Home Soil, Wildfire, etc - the list is pretty long ^^

Edited by Navarr
Lavos2018 likes this

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