Wish to contribute to the project by donating? Heads up to our Patreon -> https://www.patreon.com/skylordsreborn

Jump to content
BEWARE: Multiaccounting May Cause Permabans! Read more... ×
Karl Lavafeld

nerf amii monument

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Nicolaos said:

I dont think it is that op as some say. Yeah, sure... it's very good card in certain scenarios but it's not op at all. If it was so great then everyone would use it, also look for price, why isnt it like 1,5k++ ? I think we should keep it as it is.

Are there any rare cards that are that expensive? And eventhough you need only 1 (instead of 4 charges like other cards) it was always on the more high priced side. And i think one of the main reasons not everyone used it is that only one player per map was allowed to use it.

On 11/7/2018 at 9:34 PM, Nahath said:

When players are given a superior strategy that also happens to be less fun, they rarely analyze it and choose the more fun path. They're more likely to choose the more effective path then end up having less fun.

That's exactly what happened to me when i got my amii monument, rebuilt every PVE deck around it and now a few weeks later i don't even use it anymore. The progress of building up a T4 army shortly after going T3 became tiresome and repetitive. In the end i wasn't even faster, it just gave a bit of safety and i paid with fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, SunWu II. said:

Are there any rare cards that are that expensive? And eventhough you need only 1 (instead of 4 charges like other cards) it was always on the more high priced side. And i think one of the main reasons not everyone used it is that only one player per map was allowed to use it.

I dont remeber if there any RARE cards that expensive (wheel of gifts ? etc.), but we have bunch of commons or uncommons with higher price than rare amii m. Rarity isnt main factor of card price. As u see there are downsides, its not that great for multi PvE, useless for PvP and good for SOME of the single PvE maps. Also T3 to T4 route most of the time isnt big deal so Amii M. is just good card, for sure not op.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, ImaginaryNumb3r said:

This exact statement has already been addressed previously. It's a non solution.

 

its the best solution plp who dont like the card DONT use it and let the rest who like it use it.

yes as said above you wish to destroy the card and not fix it.

Xientie likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, nofearek9 said:

its the best solution plp who dont like the card DONT use it and let the rest who like it use it.

yes as said above you wish to destroy the card and not fix it.

You have to quote me on that, I merely wish for it to be balanced. What I said was that I regret it being introduced in the first place, that is a semantic difference.

The thing is that balance matters, even in pve. I am not sure if you have read the other posts in this thread, but Treim made a really nice post about this:

On 11/7/2018 at 10:34 AM, Treim said:

By that logic you could just create a card that requires 500 power in t4 and instantly ends the game. Not a viable PvP card and therefor shouldn‘t be an issue right?

It is however bad game design and Amii Monument falls in that same category. The card completely and fundamentaly changes the way the game and therefor maps are played while having no drawbacks except that you have to use a deck slot on it. 

The card is broken on so many levels that i can not fathom how Phenomic ever thought the card being fine as it is.

Bad game/card design should be enough reason to change cards even if they not necassarily effect other players directly

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, nofearek9 said:

i did and that idea has nothing in common with amii monument ,even if you build it does not mean you will win the map.

all your comments here show that you hate the card and you wish to destroy it for all the players .

as said if you hate it so much dont use it .

It is not about the card idea, the card was merely an example for terrible game design as it lets you skip parts of a map. While Amii Monument does not do that to the same extent it has a diminished effect like that in that you basically can skip the part of actually clearing t4 the way the maps were designed to do it. You were never supposed to clear your t4 with a bunch of t4 units. While Enlightenment can be argued to break that pattern that card can only summon 1 unit per cast with a pretty significant cast time. Amii Monument allows you taking/killing your actual t4 with a bunch of t4 units with basically no drawbacks.
I don't hate the card, i am merely pointing out that it breaks the game in a way that needs fixing.
Maybe a  more fitting desciption of the card and what it allows you to basically do is this:
Relocate every unit between your t3 and t4 to a different part of the map. Thats basically the same result. Tell me that's not broken. As much as people complain about Lost Spirit Ship or whatever, this is just so much worse imo.

P.s.Also Amii Monument actually is exactly like the imaginary example card i posted at least on Soultree. Get T4 -> Build Amii Monument -> Win map, gg ez.

Hirooo, Loriens and Dhrkaas like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/9/2018 at 9:16 AM, ImaginaryNumb3r said:

Depends on how you see it. The building costs 250 energy + 140 to choose an orb (on U3). Which means 126 energy go back into the void. This leaves you with a true cost of 264 bound/lost energy. The card is just absurd.

Thinking about it, I would say an initial cooldown of 3-5 minutes would be enough to "balance" the card, along with a base cost of 300e. For pve speedruns, that would probably render Amii Monument a fringe tactic for certain maps. For rpve it would become mostly redundant since time is crucial. In return, the ability cost should come down to ~50e.

actually i think it gets back 140 because units abilities goes completely to void...someone knows the real amount? someone tested it?

if you're not allowing to have amii monument on t3, you need to balance pve when a scenario of 2 or 4 is played by less ppl, otherwise those times that nobody want to play or you just don't find a player to play some map you lose miserably on expert most of the time....

In pvp on the other hand i've never seen anyone use it on 1vs1 since they change build cost from 150 to 250 back on EA disaster times, maybe on 2vs2 could be used more.

Maybe it should be made 4 orbs card and that will prevent broken tactics on game but, then again i think something need to be changed on pve.

That's what i think

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When EA owned the game they made so many nurf about many cards in the past that the game was no more fun at all. Amii monument isnt even a pvp card. I dont own it yet and I have the bf to buy it but mainly because the card take another card spot. I had the card in the past and its a cool card.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, heecks said:

When EA owned the game they made so many nurf about many cards in the past that the game was no more fun at all. Amii monument isnt even a pvp card. I dont own it yet and I have the bf to buy it but mainly because the card take another card spot. I had the card in the past and its a cool card.

Ikr bad EA! Give me my 9 stack wheel of gifts and 10,000 breeding grounds!!!!111 So much fun!!!1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2018 at 4:02 PM, Fudge said:

Ikr bad EA! Give me my 9 stack wheel of gifts and 10,000 breeding grounds!!!!111 So much fun!!!1

Wheel and breeding bug were gamebreaking (auto win scenario on end game). It was something that makes ur pve deck like 1000000 times better with that, in other hand current amiim. isnt anything that is gamebreaking, its just slightly faster way of getting into t4 on some maps. 

Lavos2018 and nofearek9 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Nicolaos said:

Wheel and breeding bug were gamebreaking (auto win scenario on end game). It was something that makes ur pve deck like 1000000 times better with that, in other hand current amiim. isnt anything that is gamebreaking, its just slightly faster way of getting into t4 on some maps. 

I'd disagree. It destroys how maps are supposed to be played and makes every map way easier than it should be. You get to skip a whole entire base worth of difficulty to get to t4 at a cheaper rate than the physical orbs. Slightly is an understatement lmao.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the only map so far that Monument actually breaks is Soultree, you can complete the map without attacking the twilight camp for the 5th orb, because you grab the 4th then use Monument and the game treats it as a 5th orb and causes victory as soon as the orb is finished building since the objective is to get 5 Orbs, maybe the devs can fix it so the quest only triggers victory when you grab the "normal" 5th orb so that monument isnt a cheap time-saver for a much easier and safer win with no risks associated

but thats literally ONE map, a singleplayer PVE map, where it makes a large difference

what i see here is some people worried about what is ultimately a non-issue, the simple fact is this: if you dont want to use it, then dont, but you dont need to have the entire game balanced according to your own whims, that is incredibly selfish and a good way to decimate what balance the game DOES have

the minute we start balance discussions based solely on the fact an incredibly small number of people dont like something, we may as well just give up right then and there because we have let a small number of people change something for an entire community most of whom did not want an unnecessary and borderline-pointless change

balance talk is fine, but what im seeing is sour grapes, not legitimate talk of balance, as others have said, Monument doesnt change the game so much that its broken and it has some limitations which hinder it in many circumstances meaning its mostly enjoyable for solo play, and theres nothing wrong with that, it doesnt magically make a map an instant win (outside Soultree but i addressed that) XL units arent impervious, especially not to boss-type units who generally deal insane amounts of damage in PVE

in the end, if its mostly effective in solo play, why should that matter to anyone but the person choosing to use it? its not hindering the enjoyment of anyone else because in solo play it CANNOT effect anyone else, and as long as a person isnt cheating or hacking, then i say let them play decks how they want in solo play, as long as nobody is breaking any rules then its not our job to police how everyone else enjoys the game

Edited by Lavos2018
fettsack666 and nofearek9 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Lavos2018 said:

the minute we start balance discussions based solely on the fact an incredibly small number of people dont like something

I didn't see any new points or arguments from your side we didn't already hear in this thread but i don't like to be called selfish, so tell me how ,,incredibly small'' the number of players actually is. Did you make a poll, did you ask hundreds of players ingame? Most players i used to pve with saw it as the stupid, unnecessary, broken, cashgrab card it is. I could accuse you of being selfish because you want to safe your one click wonder from balancing, but what's the point, really? When it comes to enjoyment of the game everything is rather subjective, when it comes to balance, not so much...

RadicalX, Dhrkaas and PsYcHo126 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Lavos2018 said:

the only map so far that Monument actually breaks is Soultree, you can complete the map without attacking the twilight camp for the 5th orb, because you grab the 4th then use Monument and the game treats it as a 5th orb and causes victory as soon as the orb is finished building since the objective is to get 5 Orbs, maybe the devs can fix it so the quest only triggers victory when you grab the "normal" 5th orb so that monument isnt a cheap time-saver for a much easier and safer win with no risks associated

but thats literally ONE map, a singleplayer PVE map, where it makes a large difference

what i see here is some people worried about what is ultimately a non-issue, the simple fact is this: if you dont want to use it, then dont, but you dont need to have the entire game balanced according to your own whims, that is incredibly selfish and a good way to decimate what balance the game DOES have

the minute we start balance discussions based solely on the fact an incredibly small number of people dont like something, we may as well just give up right then and there because we have let a small number of people change something for an entire community most of whom did not want an unnecessary and borderline-pointless change

balance talk is fine, but what im seeing is sour grapes, not legitimate talk of balance, as others have said, Monument doesnt change the game so much that its broken and it has some limitations which hinder it in many circumstances meaning its mostly enjoyable for solo play, and theres nothing wrong with that, it doesnt magically make a map an instant win (outside Soultree but i addressed that) XL units arent impervious, especially not to boss-type units who generally deal insane amounts of damage in PVE

in the end, if its mostly effective in solo play, what should that matter to anyone but the person choosing to use it? its not hindering the enjoyment of anyone else because in solo play it CANNOT effect anyone else, and as long as a person isnt cheating or hacking, then i say let them play decks how they want in solo play, as long as nobody is breaking any rules then its not our job to police how everyone else enjoys the game

That comes down to people not understanding HOW to break maps with that card.
There is a reason why Amii Monument is used for basically every single speedrun record except 2 and 4 player rPvE 10 and Siege of Hope
There is literally ways to abuse the card to allow for some insane strategy that speeds up the game by so much. The card is not only broken in solo play but allows you to play around a massive shortcut on all of those maps. And sure some are more obvious and insane than others - Soultree <-> Encounters with Twilight. On most of those maps Amii Monument is the card that even allows you to play that strategy: Convoy, Slavemaster, PtD, Nightmares Shard, Nightmares End, King of the Giants, Bad Harvest, Soultree, Oracle, Ocean, Insane God, Dwarven Riddle, Mo, Crusade Treasure Fleet, Behind Enemy Lines. Probably missed a couple as well.
In Nightmares Shard one player even gives up his last monument just so the other guy can use Amii Monument. Now tell me that doesn't change the way you play the game. Amii Monument is the single most used card across all speedrun strategies with maybe the exception of regrowth and that is because it is so often a massive shortcut if you know how to abuse it. Just because most players don't know how to abuse it, doesn't mean its not worth fixing. If there is a bug in your game but 99% of players dont know how to abuse it, doesn't mean you just leave it be. And Amii Monument basically is just that.
Otherwise we probably just leave all PvE cards as is and only balance PvP relevant cards.

it's not like we even argue Amii Monument is the only stupid card there is - because there is a couple more - just none to the insane level, that they literally change how you can play most maps.
LSS; Shadow Phoenix, Shrine of War, Furnace of Flesh + CM -the list goes on. This thread however was about Amii Monument.

Dhrkaas, DarcReaver, Hirooo and 2 others like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I as a Map creator balance my Maps for u actually play without amii monument.

If i must pretent that amii-monument is used i ll in my next map only place 3 orbs. Then i make bases balanced for the player has t4.

This results in every player must own that card. And 1 slot is allway occupied for your t4  (amii monument).

 

 

Any Community Challange of Official Maps or Communitymaps had restrictions for some cards cause otherwise the way of how the map is supposed to play is bypassed. 

 

 

I also want go back in history.

In original first edition the game was much much harder then now. Every Edition brought some new good cards but the missions stayed the same. So it became easier and easier.

Also i want add in the last half year of battleforge the "creators" didnt care for balance only want press the last money out of the small comunity.

they nerved enlightment, soon after brought amii monument.

deep one was op the brought moon.

they dumped the prices of bfp resultin in a massive inflation of every bfp that was not new bought but saved up cause all the prices went up.

 

I agree that manny other cards need hard nerfes too.

 

Thx for the people who put so much efforts in their post. 

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2018 at 2:21 PM, SunWu II. said:

I didn't see any new points or arguments from your side we didn't already hear in this thread but i don't like to be called selfish, so tell me how ,,incredibly small'' the number of players actually is. Did you make a poll, did you ask hundreds of players ingame? Most players i used to pve with saw it as the stupid, unnecessary, broken, cashgrab card it is. I could accuse you of being selfish because you want to safe your one click wonder from balancing, but what's the point, really? When it comes to enjoyment of the game everything is rather subjective, when it comes to balance, not so much...

given the amount of replies in this thread on both sides, i dont think i need to make a poll because i can do this thing called "extrapolation" which btw is commonly used in polling, and if you would dare to accuse me of being "selfish" and all those things i would retort that your just upset that someone has a different opinion than you

the other person claimed that "leaving it alone" is a non-solution...no its actually a perfectly fine solution, just he and some others such as yourself dont happen to like it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would strongly recommend to stop whining about nerf-I-don't-like-it and actually BOOST cards that are alternative for this. Someone feels that T3 isn't enough for him, and can allow to spend 400 power to jump straight to T4? Take some useless T3 cards and actually boost them for at least matching their rarity (yes, sandstorm, corsair, oracle mask, twilight warfare, ALL twilights actually, I'm talking about them). It's so funny when feeling better getting uncommon shaman in booster, not some ultra-rare thrash.

Edited by Mak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mak said:

I would strongly recommend to stop whining about nerf-I-don't-like-it and actually BOOST cards that are alternative for this. Someone feels that T3 isn't enough for him, and can allow to spend 400 power to jump straight to T4? Take some useless T3 cards and actually boost them for at least matching their rarity (yes, sandstorm, corsair, oracle mask, twilight warfare, ALL twilights actually, I'm talking about them). It's so funny when feeling better getting uncommon shaman in booster, not some ultra-rare thrash.

This is brilliant, we can take this even one step further to improve the game. So let's do the same with Enlightenment. Make it T2, 400 power, one nature orb.

Someone feels that T2 isn't enough for him, and can allow to spend 400 power to nuke the board with T4 units? Take some useless T2 cards and actually boost them for at least matching their rarity (yes, Ice Age, Lost Shade, Mountain Rowdy, Vileblood, Banditos, Twilight Curse, Lost Priest, Revenant's Blessing, ALL Lost Souls actually, I'm talking about them). It doesn't matter that this will lead to an unending power spike, unevenly distributed throughout all factions. Because on the other side, we don't even need to balance T3 cards. All that needs to be done is doing cosmetic changes and don't address broken cards. See? Everybody wins.

6 hours ago, Lavos2018 said:

given the amount of replies in this thread on both sides, i dont think i need to make a poll because i can do this thing called "extrapolation" which btw is commonly used in polling, and if you would dare to accuse me of being "selfish" and all those things i would retort that your just upset that someone has a different opinion than you

the other person claimed that "leaving it alone" is a non-solution...no its actually a perfectly fine solution, just he and some others such as yourself dont happen to like it

Indeed, there are many replies from both sides but I can only see one side actually putting forth some arguments.

Note that "just leave it", "why you hate Amii Monument?" or "let everybody play how they want" don't exactly count as arguments it. They are just personal statements or questions. While other, more in-depth, reasoning (such as made by Treim) could still require some counter arguments.

Note, I hope not to hurt anybody's feelings with this post. I would prefer this topic to be elevated to a more objective level, without personal assumption about the other person's emotional state. It also feels somewhat unfair if well thought-out posts are completely ignored. It is a lot of work to explain why certain cards become problematic from an overarching perspective, as this is a complex game with many factors involved.

Edited by ImaginaryNumb3r
Dhrkaas, Hirooo and Kilian Dermoth like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Amii Monument and Enlightenment are lame cards and shouldn't be in the game to begin with. Both remove the incentive to play T3 cards and Enlightenment unfairly rewards you with the best cards only mono coloured decks should be able to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Eulogy said:

Both Amii Monument and Enlightenment are lame cards and shouldn't be in the game to begin with. Both remove the incentive to play T3 cards and Enlightenment unfairly rewards you with the best cards only mono coloured decks should be able to play.

Enlightment requires quite a lot of upfront power though and is very limited. I personally think the card is pretty cool, because it fits the nature theme very well and requires planning to use correctly.

Monument is a whole other story though. Monument should be much cheaper and a t4 card, allowing more than 4 orb colors. I.e. pure shadow x4 + nature, or pure fire x4 + shadow etc. With a cheap cost this would make deck building more flexible.

Edited by DarcReaver
Dhrkaas likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, ImaginaryNumb3r said:

This is brilliant, we can take this even one step further to improve the game. So let's do the same with Enlightenment. Make it T2, 400 power, one nature orb.

Someone feels that T2 isn't enough for him, and can allow to spend 400 power to nuke the board with T4 units? Take some useless T2 cards and actually boost them for at least matching their rarity (yes, Ice Age, Lost Shade, Mountain Rowdy, Vileblood, Banditos, Twilight Curse, Lost Priest, Revenant's Blessing, ALL Lost Souls actually, I'm talking about them). It doesn't matter that this will lead to an unending power spike, unevenly distributed throughout all factions. Because on the other side, we don't even need to balance T3 cards. All that needs to be done is doing cosmetic changes and don't address broken cards. See? Everybody wins. 

 

I just wonder if the person is retarded or just had really bad day? So toxic. Glad you know smart words like power spike...

On the topic, OP is wrong, normal T4 binds only 100 power + 300 is one-time payment for "breaking throught" to T4, comparing to Amii Monument binding 250 power and being limited to 1 per map. Keep in mind that its worth to be used only in PvE higher difficulties and offers nothing that can't be made by simply orb-switching without it.

May be off-topic, but Enlightenment is limited rarity-price and power cost and occupying deck slot in order to summon small amount of units that are otherwise impossible to fit, this is actually great to see how it offers such versantility for mere 240 power and a slot in a deck. Batariel, Shadow Worm, Dreadnought, isn't it fun to use them in multi-colored decks?

What's important, is that there are HUGE number of cards that are just not VALID for anything short of very specific strategies, while there are many working combos with Enlightenment or Amii Monument.

Its not an option to remove working card combinations or rework them, while there are cards that are just unworthy to put in any deck at all.

Also nerf juggernaut and harvester they are lame, and make thunder wagon into thunder zeppelin :)

wibryz likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2018 at 2:35 AM, Mak said:

I just wonder if the person is retarded or just had really bad day? So toxic. Glad you know smart words like power spike...

On the topic, OP is wrong, normal T4 binds only 100 power + 300 is one-time payment for "breaking throught" to T4, comparing to Amii Monument binding 250 power and being limited to 1 per map. Keep in mind that its worth to be used only in PvE higher difficulties and offers nothing that can't be made by simply orb-switching without it.

May be off-topic, but Enlightenment is limited rarity-price and power cost and occupying deck slot in order to summon small amount of units that are otherwise impossible to fit, this is actually great to see how it offers such versantility for mere 240 power and a slot in a deck. Batariel, Shadow Worm, Dreadnought, isn't it fun to use them in multi-colored decks?

What's important, is that there are HUGE number of cards that are just not VALID for anything short of very specific strategies, while there are many working combos with Enlightenment or Amii Monument.

Its not an option to remove working card combinations or rework them, while there are cards that are just unworthy to put in any deck at all.

Also nerf juggernaut and harvester they are lame, and make thunder wagon into thunder zeppelin :)

WoW u use retarded as a swearword. Didnt hear that in a long time. T4 binds 300 power not 100 so its more than amii monument.

 

Kind Regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make amii t4 problem solved imo.

 

Enlightenment makes the game so much more fun why would you want to destroy a card that lets players have a ton of combos (with long cooldown and high power cost i dont see the problem)

 

Lot's of cards need nerfing/buffing but first make matchmaking work. worry about balance later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.