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HiyaMC

MA Spam or not

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So, I played a few matches vs Neosid and lost all in the first T1 fight (on 3 diffrent Maps)

I spamed MA and Neosid mainly scavies  (only once a firesworn but that was fucused down quickly and so didn't matter to the equasion).

2 times he started with a well plus early and I focused on the scavengers. And the other one was an equal energy fight.

The 2 fights where I had the plus energy even went worse for me than equal energy one. The fights took place around the 90 seconds mark I think (about 7 spread out MA vs 4 scav).

So here is the Question:

Do MA lose even with BEST focus micro over scavengers?

Also should I move back hit units although slowed or not? (I suppose I should not while they are still a full squad, and move them back as soon they are 5 or less, to get dmg tank for each bitten rest.

 

P.S: I do not claim the I have perfect micro skills (I'm not that extremly bad either). One problem is my high latency from Japan (next focus takes usually 800+ ms to happen, and damage is spread for that split second), so it's very hard for me to solve this question if I had the perfect micro needed.

Seems Neosid was slightly annoyed sparring me, and telling me to not ONLY spam MA while I also discussing about the latency influence. But I want to try to make the best out of one situaion before I try to adjust with units. I am really just trying to learn how to deal with it, so need to know wheater is a technical issue only, or a microable issue. Because I would like to be able to compete somewhat on a high level anyhow (I'm trying to be at least best 50). Anyways I was happy to play Neosid, and want to thank him for his patience.

Edited by HiyaMC

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2 hours ago, HiyaMC said:

So, I played a few matches vs Neosid and lost all in the first T1 fight (on 3 diffrent Maps)

I spamed MA and Neosid mainly scavies  (only once a firesworn but that was fucused down quickly and so didn't matter to the equasion).

2 times he started with a well plus early and I focused on the scavengers. And the other one was an equal energy fight.

The 2 fights where I had the plus energy even went worse for me than equal energy one. The fights took place around the 90 seconds mark I think (about 7 spread out MA vs 4 scav).

So here is the Question:

Do MA lose even with BEST focus micro over scavengers?

Also should I move back hit units although slowed or not? (I suppose I should not while they are still a full squad, and move them back as soon they are 5 or less, to get dmg tank for each bitten rest.

 

P.S: I do not claim the I have perfect micro skills (I'm not that extremly bad either). One problem is my high latency from Japan (next focus takes usually 800+ ms to happen, and damage is spread for that split second), so it's very hard for me to solve this question if I had the perfect micro needed.

Seems Neosid was slightly annoyed sparring me, and telling me to not ONLY spam MA while I also discussing about the latency influence. But I want to try to make the best out of one situaion before I try to adjust with units. I am really just trying to learn how to deal with it, so need to know wheater is a technical issue only, or a microable issue. Because I would like to be able to compete somewhat on a high level anyhow (I'm trying to be at least best 50). Anyways I was happy to play Neosid, and want to thank him for his patience.

I feel you on the lag...I have to be predictive. So if you can get a feel for how much damage your MA arrows will do, switch targets before the unit is dead and count on the lag leave the units shooting until it dies. Depending on how good you are at predicting that, you can reduce the impact of the lag (while also saving your MAs from wasting arrows at a target that will be dead before the arrows reach)

 

And no. MA spam (alone) will not work against scavengers. Do you know about unit counters? You can read more about it on some guides (i'd recommend checking out a tour of guides here), but in short, scavengers do 50% more damage against small units. MA does 50% more against small units as well, but that doesn't matter because scavengers are medium. 

The best counter to scavengers are ice guardians. With good micro, mixing ice guardians and MA, (plus frostbite and homesoil) you can defend with no problem. The main issue is that you need to be careful so the enemy scavenger doesn't just run away and attack another base.

I'm no expert on this though, so you should ask for 2nd opinions on specifics. IIrc, @MaranV spent a lot of time training against fire players on haladur, but he hasn't been to the forums in a while.

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Thanks for your comment as usual.

Yes Ice Guardians beat up on Scavengers, but they do have some other problems. (Also I don't play imperials despite my avatar for  multiple other reasons.)

1) They natural do not start with a shield, so they cost 65 power each to be fully useful (+ 20 for ice barrier at least once).

2) they can be kited (scavy slow)

3) They are often less useful after the fight.

(and a minor point, upgrades are expensive, but that is solved over time)

 

So that is why I want to know the outcome of the MA scavy fight if played correctly by both. If and if then how many Ice guardians(etc.) do I need to close the gap.

Quote

The best counter to scavengers are ice guardians. With good micro, mixing ice guardians and MA, (plus frostbite and homesoil) you can defend with no problem. The main issue is that you need to be careful so the enemy scavenger doesn't just run away and attack another base.

My problem right now is the attack against an extra well. I already mainly win vs scavy rushes if i take the first well. For that I use the Radicalx solution which workes really well for me.

I did train alot with Maran in 2013 , he showed me how to handle thugs with forstbite. But I don't know if he is back on the game yet.

 

But yeah my question remains unsolved. Maybe I will ask radicalx or mac, etc.

 

Quote

I feel you on the lag...I have to be predictive. So if you can get a feel for how much damage your MA arrows will do, switch targets before the unit is dead and count on the lag leave the units shooting until it dies. Depending on how good you are at predicting that, you can reduce the impact of the lag (while also saving your MAs from wasting arrows at a target that will be dead before the arrows reach)

Yeah, it's a skill in itself. If the lag would be the same always it would be easier to predict, but there is a random figure which sometime would leave units at 5hp.

Also the main issue are lost packages. sometimes I have to click multiple times or it's like I didn't even send the command. And if I do that I have the opposition costs of other actions, even if i had 400apm. But yeah it's somewhat possible to do, better than at starcraft, although the lag feels harder , bf has lots of slow animations which gives me more time.

Edited by HiyaMC

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39 minutes ago, HiyaMC said:

Also the main issue are lost packages. sometimes I have to click multiple times or it's like I didn't even send the command

Finally someone who understands! :)

Sorry, I must not have read carefully. You want to assault an extra well?

Hmm...it has been done successfully against me before. That doesn't mean that it's easy, but I've lost to MA spams before (unless I use mortar). IIRC, there was also at least another unit, probably a lightblade or ice guardian, that runs some slight support. I know MaranV likes to start with lightblade because a single t1 unit autoloses to lightblade. So he might use one lightblade to deflect the 1st scavenger, then focus the 2nd with homesoil, and now you have removed 2 scavengers before they can do anything. Assuming he has power for 3 more scavengers, you should be able to easily target them with homesoil + ice barrier + 4 MA. (roughly 400 power vs 400 power).

 

I'd say the main trick is to make sure your army is large enough before attacking. 3 MA +homesoil + ice barrier will probably lose to 2 scavengers. But if you have like 5-10 MA, they can focus the scavengers very quickly. That's something important--for ranged units, having more gives you a massive dps increase. Fire can't respond with ss, because they die instantly. Firesworn is too squishy to use in defense at a power deficit.

You don't *really* need to worry about eruptions either, because erupting a dazed MA will result in a dazed squad with 1hp on every unit, that will get healed after the daze ends.


Regarding whether you should move your units: it's true that running with one unit from the scavenger will cause the scavenger to do less dps, while all your other archers do constant dps. However, it's probably not a huge deal because you won't be erupted. The fire player wants to bite a group of MA, leaving them at 300 hp each, and erupt them all. Especially since micro will be hard with lag, it's probably best just to clump all the MA together (along with some ice barriers to absorb damage), that way eruptions will spread out ineffectively and not kill anything. If you try to spread your MA out, there's always that chance that the scavenger will move, possibly causing you to clump 2 dazed MA next to each other, and then an eruption + orb hit will save him. If you just start building a massive army as you march, most of them will be at full hp by the time you arrive, and only a mortar or mine will do enough damage to actually kill them.

That said, if I ever take a well and I see you rushing toward me with a giant frost army, I'm building a mortar ASAP :)

My initial motivation to add mortar to my deck was actually because MaranV explained that it was the only way I'd survive while taking a well against a frost rush.

Hope that helps, and hit me up in the forge if you want to see how it goes vs my (relatively bad) t1 :)

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On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 4:31 AM, HiyaMC said:

Do MA lose even with BEST focus micro over scavengers?

In short, yes. Eruption will dominate the game in small to medium scaled stages (say 10 units & less) combined with scavengers' high damage output and crippling bite disabling your micro. After +- 12 MAs the odds slightly go into your favor but with such a large investment a fire player can easily afford 2 or 3 firesworns that will keep your damage output +- halved, if the fire player micros them. Which most players will be able to do since the only action the fire player really has is erupting you every now and then while the scavengers tear you up. 

Edited by MaranV

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15 hours ago, MaranV said:

Which most players will be able to do

Oof, shots fired :)

I think he means when fire has taken a well and has a 100 power disadvantage? For example, let's say you both take the first well on haladur, then fire takes well #2 immediately. If frost rushes, you think fire should be able to hold (without mortar)?

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6 hours ago, Eirias said:

Oof, shots fired :)

I think he means when fire has taken a well and has a 100 power disadvantage? For example, let's say you both take the first well on haladur, then fire takes well #2 immediately. If frost rushes, you think fire should be able to hold (without mortar)?

Lol, you`ll be fine doing it too, when the missing packets issue gets resolved.

Yea his first question was about the MA match up. The latter was about rushing fire when they over well. I`ll take some time later to write something proper about how to play frost t1 in the current meta (or rather how I played it, obviously everyone is free to play it in whatever way they want). But in a nut shell rushing with frost is a no go simply because you are nowhere without Ice Guardians (IGs) and in the current meta they can only be spawned at friendly wells/orbs, subsequently meaning you`ll be spending anywhere between 60 to 100 power on ice barriers to even be able to move in. At least in a manner that won`t be giving away guaranteed efficient eruptions. Of course this is assuming the fire (or shadow for that matter) player actually used his speed and subsequent  map control to not choose a well that is within 100m range of a frost well. 

 

Edited by MaranV
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