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Kunzekalauer

Bandits were underpowered.

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Posted (edited)

Hey guys, I just rediscovered that forum. It has been years and I am still dying to play the open beta, seriously I loved that game and I love the devs for actually putting all the effort over all these years into the revival of the Skylords :D

So I wondered if you all agree how underpowered and underused Bandits were in PVP as well as in PVE. I mean even the random PVE maps were pretty much a free win if it was just bandits, in comparison to facing lost souls in RPVE9+. That was an absolute nightmare. :D

Can you all imagine re-balancing the game over the years once it is all stable, no more crashing servers etc. ? I personally loved the Bandits and the playstyle they represented. What are your feelings about them? Do you disagree on my observation, do you feel like they were balanced? If not, can you think of ways to make them more viable in PVP as well as in PVE?

Greetz from Kunze

Edited by Kunzekalauer

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I must agree however, i'd say there are many things that may need some adjusting and rebalancing especially when we enter into the phase of new content maps, modes, cards,  within a few years i'd imagine.

 

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I too think that this issue should not be top priority,since we are still facing troubles opening the beta. Balancing the existing system seems more important to me than adding features that are completely new though.

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i got into top 10 with bandits... they are still the weakest faction tho. they have a whole bunch of weakspots that experienced players can abuse... on the other hand only few have that experience since hardly any serious player was maining bandits in ranked.

rank doesn't really matter anyways if most of the good players are rarely active in ranked (well... i guess i wasn't a paragon of activity either tbh).

 

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Posted (edited)

rPvE banidts really just have nothing that makes them hard to deal with.

A little bit of cc (Wind dragons), but nothing that goes beyond slightly bothersome, unlike Twilight. No anti spell buildings/units like LS/Twilights. No damage redcution passive ability like Stonekin. 

No they got lifesteal. That doesn‘t really work well if you get cc‘ed and run over though. They don‘t even do more damage compared to other factions, which would at least help making them a little bit harder to play against and would synergize fairly well with theor Lifesteal. Tbh i am not even sure they have lifesteal as PVE units simply because the ability has so little impact.

Due to their lack of general cc and disables compared to other factions and they‘re mediocre damage and subpar ability they just are to easy to play against and are basically a free win at every difficulty ( even 10). 

Maybe  turning them into a faction with massive burst damage would work and at least give them some character compared to the other factions (Stonekin - Endurance, Twilight - CC, Lost Souls - Disables/Debuffs, Bandits - Burst damage)

How that kind of change could look like in detail, i don‘t know either. Maybe a point of diacussion worth exploring. Especially because i don‘t think this was discussed before at least in this forum.

 

 

Edited by Treim

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Posted (edited)

Yea they could use some more damage in general, completely agree on that one. I also think that some of the Bandit units would have been a lot stronger if they had a buff that cost f.e. 20% of the current health and grants a significant dmg bonus plus a minor lifesteal buff maybe. that way they would become more complex to handle but also more of a threat if the opponent is distracted. i als think that s units schould fully recover from the lifesteal even if they lost single members of the unit already. that was not possible if i recall it right.

 

I'd also like to know which major weaknesses the experienced pvp bandit players came across, what counters have been the hardest to deal with etc.

Edited by Kunzekalauer
spelling and something new came to my mind

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The problem about giving bandit pve units such an effect is that it would probably be pretty hard to code when they would use it as those abilities are generally a lot about decision making. There is currently no AI in place for battleforge that could handle that kind of task very well, if at all. All abilities of units are generally passively applied by attacking. 

Bandits as player units don‘t need any buff at all, especially not damage buffs. You have access to massive damage spells like cluster explosion, Inferno and Soulshatter, good cc and support spells like Frenetic Assault, Infect, Unholy Hero and Life Weaving on top of the 2 best void manipulation cards/combos in Shrine of War AND Furnace of flesh+ Cultist Masters. As the cherry on top you have access to Bloodhorns, easily one of the best t4 units that 3-4 shot any boss with its ability( shadow affinity) and Unholy Hero. Alternatively you got the walking Artillery with Tortuguns. Bandits definetly don‘t lack firepower in PvE from the player‘s side.

Pretty sure there are a couple of threads on Bandits PvP problems already in this  forums. 

My suggestion was purely made for the AI side of Bandit PvE

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1 hour ago, Treim said:

The problem about giving bandit pve units such an effect is that it would probably be pretty hard to code when they would use it as those abilities are generally a lot about decision making. There is currently no AI in place for battleforge that could handle that kind of task very well, if at all. All abilities of units are generally passively applied by attacking.

I don't think it would be that hard. Battleforge's AI is not the best but overall decent, which holds true for other enemy factions in PvE as well. The important thing is to find the right trigger/delay to activate such abilities. From a gameplay point-of-view active abilities should be telegraphed to the player (make them recognizable) and impact the course of the game/fight.
Personally I would give the units a buff that makes them gain lifesteal over time in combat similar to the dmg buff of Giant Slayers or Rageclaws.

A fight could go like this:
You have T2 and rush a Bandit rPvE camp. The usual mob stationed in the base forms and attacks you. As a :frostorb::natureorb: player you are sure to win with CC and heals on your side. You use Coldsnap as an engage tool and send a mountaineer/burrowers to destroy the spawn buildings while your main force engages the mob. Reinforcements spawn in the camp and engage the Siege unit which is still able to destroy one spawn building. When the Coldsnap wears of your units are slightly more in number but the enemy units prove to be quite tanky due to their lifesteal passive that was activated when you engaged them in combat. You are able to win the fight but you spent more resources and time than anticipated.

Personally I like the idea because it makes it more interesting to play vs the faction as you need to formulate a more specific strategy.
The sole lifesteal buff would be slightly unbalanced as bursty factions :fireorb:/:shadoworb: would have an easier time than the tanky ones :frostorb:/:natureorb:. IMO a good alternative is a buff that activates when Bandit units are affected by spell CC. The buff reduces the CC duration and grants additional lifesteal for something like ~5s after the CC ends. This makes units more important and at the same time it counters the burst and chain-CC from all factions.

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22 minutes ago, Kaliber84 said:

I don't think it would be that hard. Battleforge's AI is not the best but overall decent, which holds true for other enemy factions in PvE as well. The important thing is to find the right trigger/delay to activate such abilities. From a gameplay point-of-view active abilities should be telegraphed to the player (make them recognizable) and impact the course of the game/fight.
Personally I would give the units a buff that makes them gain lifesteal over time in combat similar to the dmg buff of Giant Slayers or Rageclaws.

A fight could go like this:
You have T2 and rush a Bandit rPvE camp. The usual mob stationed in the base forms and attacks you. As a :frostorb::natureorb: player you are sure to win with CC and heals on your side. You use Coldsnap as an engage tool and send a mountaineer/burrowers to destroy the spawn buildings while your main force engages the mob. Reinforcements spawn in the camp and engage the Siege unit which is still able to destroy one spawn building. When the Coldsnap wears of your units are slightly more in number but the enemy units prove to be quite tanky due to their lifesteal passive that was activated when you engaged them in combat. You are able to win the fight but you spent more resources and time than anticipated.

Personally I like the idea because it makes it more interesting to play vs the faction as you need to formulate a more specific strategy.
The sole lifesteal buff would be slightly unbalanced as bursty factions :fireorb:/:shadoworb: would have an easier time than the tanky ones :frostorb:/:natureorb:. IMO a good alternative is a buff that activates when Bandit units are affected by spell CC. The buff reduces the CC duration and grants additional lifesteal for something like ~5s after the CC ends. This makes units more important and at the same time it counters the burst and chain-CC from all factions.

Well i am not a programmer. I might be wrong and it would be easy to implement the use of abilities for the AI. Afaik there is no such thing in BF yet though. So not sure if that has some kind of influence as well.

I was mainly focused on t4 tbh, because that is what rPVE is all about (unless you play lvl 10 maybe). I feel like that ability would be so much of a noobstomper though. You generally want to focus down units 1 by 1 anyway and that passive ability plays right into that hand. It only really makes the game harder for the inexperienced players while everyone who knows how to play decently has a easy way around even when playing the slower factions.  Also i am not sure how big of an influence that kind of ability has in t4 - i guess it depends on the numbers though. Actually Bandits would suddenly be super good against LSS spam. Like it. Do it.

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18 hours ago, Kunzekalauer said:

I'd also like to know which major weaknesses the experienced pvp bandit players came across, what counters have been the hardest to deal with etc.

Bandits has the major problem of being the weakest faction in terms of defence. You lack any sort of cc (mostly provided by nature splashes) and building protections (only provided by frost splashes), which forces you to defend proactively. Pure Shadow and Pure Fire don't have these benefits either, but they've got super strong cards (wildfire/enforcer/Firedancer/Shadow Mage/Nether Warp) that make up for this weakness and are stronger in the T3 stage (Juggernaut/Voidstorm). Bandits is less foregiving, you are even forced to create advantages, because most other decks have superior T3's and outscale you. Bandits has some excellent options to snowball advantages, especially when you managed to master the deck, but once you fall behind it's game over.

 

 

 

 

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On 7/10/2018 at 3:55 PM, Treim said:

Bandits as player units don‘t need any buff at all, especially not damage buffs. You have access to massive damage spells like cluster explosion, Inferno and Soulshatter, good cc and support spells like Frenetic Assault, Infect, Unholy Hero and Life Weaving on top of the 2 best void manipulation cards/combos in Shrine of War AND Furnace of flesh+ Cultist Masters.

 I never actually understood the use of FoF SoW and Cultist Masters, it wouldn't create new energy and you dont get void energy for Units that emerged from abilities/spells (bc that would be OP).
They have nerfed FoF as well from what I can recall. I personally preferred dealing damage with units that I dont need anymore since you get 90% of the original energy back anyway. With SoW and FoF you would get the energy back faster or what is the actual profit?^^
I do agree on the t4 part, a fully buffed bloodhorn was the shit :D

 

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2 hours ago, Kunzekalauer said:

 I never actually understood the use of FoF SoW and Cultist Masters, it wouldn't create new energy and you dont get void energy for Units that emerged from abilities/spells (bc that would be OP).
They have nerfed FoF as well from what I can recall. I personally preferred dealing damage with units that I dont need anymore since you get 90% of the original energy back anyway. With SoW and FoF you would get the energy back faster or what is the actual profit?^^
I do agree on the t4 part, a fully buffed bloodhorn was the shit :D

 

Well you see, you are technically right about the fact that you get back 90% of the energy from dying units/buildings and using spells. However they are not refunded directly into your power pool but into your void pool. From there it slowly trickles back into your power pool - the more power in the void pool the more power flows back. As you can see the chance of emptying the pool that even just a bit will take quite a bit of time.

That is where void manipulation such as Shrine of War or FoF+ Cultist Master (CM) kick in.

Shrine of war refunds a percentage of that power in the void pool into your power pool every time an enemy dies. 

FoF refunds power by a low percentage of enemy units maximal Hit Points that die within a certain radius. You are right that summoned units do not generate any power by themselves, but they do have a maximal HP value which can be used by Furnace of Flesh to add power from the void pool int your actual power pool. 

By constantly using these methods you basically have an infinte amount of power to use as long as you constantly use power in forms of spells or abilities. 

That is what makes spellfocussed decks and spells in general very efficient. You loose 10% of their cost and generate the other 90% back almost instantly. 

I can‘t remember if the percentage of power refund of FoF was actually nerfed. They did however nerfed its synergy with Embalmers Shrine. Nonetheless it is still super good - not quite as good as Shrine of War in most scenarios, but for most decks more than enough void manipulation. 

 

I hope this helped clearing things up a bit. If it was not i can try to reframe it. Just let me know.

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13 hours ago, Treim said:

I hope this helped clearing things up a bit. If it was not i can try to reframe it. Just let me know.

Perfectly clear, thanks :D 

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47 minutes ago, Rondine said:

Wasn´t it also broken that you could offer the Nightstalker from the cultist to gain back Shadow mages stacks? Don´t remember if it was patched tho

You can do that - also usefull to get charges back for netherwarp. At least in PvE i never really ran into charge problems with Shadow Mage though. That part was more of a bonus to me and pretty niche use.

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