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Ultrakool

(Discussion/Suggestion)Artificial Card supply by staff in the AH

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Hi guys,

A topic that has always been a given and not discussed much is the fact that the team will try to put up some cards in the AH at the start in an attempt to “kickstart” the economy. I just wanted to open up a discussion on whether or not you think this is a good idea from a utilitarian point of view which means for the greater good of the community as a whole. Also any economics majors or business people out there who can shed some light on how such an action will affect the economy will be much appreciated. With closed beta and release and the reset, we sort of have a chance to test out this theory of which will make better sense for the economy to implement when full release comes. I have had an external discussion with some community members and when I have a little time if the points are not mentioned by that point I may edit the post or add some new ones.

Matejob likes this

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Hmmm, I really don't like the Idea. I am no "good" trader anyway - barely remeber alot of cards, missed afaik a whole edition and and don't remember prices at all. If there are card from the team in the AH this is another advantage for the "pros" in my eyes.
Lets start with a plain AH and get a feeling for cards and prices all together!

The problem that I see is that any cards that are for too low prices in the AH will be bought out by traders and be swapped for more BFP - ofc the prizes will stabilize on a reasonable price very fast according to marketing rules, but only very few persons will profit - that persons that profit anyway by trading alot

Edit: My idea/suggestion if the staff wants to fasten the OB start: Give people another starter deck with more improved card directly or give them a handfull of BFP to buy some more cards at the start - economy will balance very fast then and everybody has the same chance

Edited by Volin
indubitablement and Cyber like this

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Considering there will be more old players knowing the value of some cards over others i really dont know if we ourselves should start the market , cus for our favor, we might  get/buy the good cards we need for a very affordable price and after that the demand for those cards might go higher up and so will the price for other  players who dont join in super active the first few days . So yes start a new market but dont undervalue any card just make them kinda expensive or just higher price, so people buy more boosters at the start to see what cards are in the flow cus of the rng , even bad cards should start a bit higher on the ah cus we all know some cards are gona tank to minimal bfp anyway. Just my opinion sounds better to me than starting with a full "rng" market.

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Hm I think you shouldnt do it really. It's a good idea and all but its kinda flawed since better players will just farm fast and stock out the good cards. I think if you wanna make some auctions do it for common cards imo ;)

Cyber likes this

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if there will be no different boosters just all the cards in one, then I dont think this should be a thing. It will take time but the prices will get into their place. Its not like if you put your first cards up for too much anyone will be able to buy them as we cant buy bfp. Just imagine someone unlocks a promo early... there is no way you can sell it for a realistic price maybe even for months or just sell it for less in beta and be sad that you opened one in the beta... hmmm maybe promos shouldnt disappear after beta? I mean its unfair and good at the same time but man I havent seen a single person playing with a promo in the old days and I dont want that to happen again

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I dont think its a good idea to put some cards in the ah, since many cards are useless and nobody will buy it, and others fill up a slot in almost every deck (For example  T1 shaman in nature deck, or overlord in pure shadow deck, frost mage in frost.... etc), so the stock of  that cards will be depleted in few days, then those players who bought it have the control of the market, i dont like how that sounds.

Im up for the idea of giving for example 10 boosters to everyone who sign up beta, and luck will do the rest of the job. Someone can be very lucky and someone unlucky, but im sure in 10 boosters you will get something usefull for completing PVE maps and start saving bfp for buying pvp cards/whatever you want

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59 minutes ago, Ultrakool said:

@sanyavok9There will be different boosters in Skylords Reborn maybe not for open beta but definitely for release

I don't remember the story of the amii cards and why they got expensive I assume that booster got removed later or something but I hope all of them will be availabe. Its a good thing tho and Im glad they will be available separately

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1 minute ago, Alexx-serg said:

And what will be the options for obtaining new cards?

Buying boosters or buying in the AH

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Prestocking the AH sets a price precedent for whatever you list it at, IMO, and the competition with player listings would disincentivize them from listing their own cards in the beginning (which is what you're trying to stimulate). I think folks jockeying for sales will settle the prices out on their own -- as long as there's a healthy amount of boosters being opened and a long enough window for things to settle out, that is.

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well in my opinion it would be a good idea to have a preset market but with an infinit amount of cards for a set price from the admins. altough that might will lead to people not opening boosters which means the price should be like twice as much as they are worth or smth like that. still it is better in the beginning to buy them directly for a bit more then just opening boosters and maybe dont get the cards which you need for a good deck. later ppl should normally start to buy boosters since its cheaper to get cards this way and you can sell the cards you dont need for a good amount in the market (cheaper then the admins but in total you should make profit by buying boosters and selling the cards until the market is stable)

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It is a problematic topic.

Generally I dislike the thought of an artificial economy that is controlled by a few. That's literally market manipulation.

The difference is that the people doing it don't do it for personal profit. But if others buy cards from these listings, it's basically removing points from the game. There isn't really a transaction going on because the staff members don't need points.

However a self-regulating market has some major issues as well if the playerbase is small, which it will be. It is VERY prone to monopolies, absurd price shifts and manipulation. Just extremely volatile overall. Even if the playerbase is huge, individuals can still heavily influence the AH. For an economy to function somewhat properly I think supply and demand have to be balanced in some way.

If a lot of boosters will get opened by only a small community, demand will plummet because over time everyone is overstocked on everything and all cards will tank in value. If boosters are rarer then the prices will be absurdly high and the market gets very vulnerable to manipulation. Finding a balance is impossible because you cannot accurately account for changes in the number of players. Sure, you can just suddenly change rarity/accessibility of boosters, certain cards or points. But every change regarding that will have a rippling effect that's hard to oversee.

Overall I see a lot of issues with the AH either way. I would be very surprised if it ever reached a healthy state.

My approach would be to just examine how the AH develops in the beginning and take cues from beta. Despite it getting wiped, people will mostly still act like it won't. Try to influence the AH indirectly by adjusting rarity of cards, supply of boosters and/or cards that players get, amount of points they earn.

But directly influencing supply and demand is more risk than what it's worth imo. People could even exploit that to their advantage and play the staff members. Do not make the mistake of being naive and thinking some people won't try to use that for personal gains. You do not want to get entangled in this kind of complicated issue. You can never be so much in control and so much above the playerbase that they won't find a way to profit off of your economy-intervention. People have been building quasi-monopolies and creating massive scale market manipulations in virtual economies against playerbases of tens of thousands of people. I play Path of Exile and it happens every single league (a fresh start for everyone wanting to participate every three months, so the economy starts from 0 again too) multiple times. It is observable. People even write detailed explanations about how they did it. Staff that tries to "fix" an AH by direct supply or mass buying of cards would just be a most welcome tool to them. In theory it could work but in reality you will get into hot water, you don't want to do that to yourself.

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I agree with @Cocofang it's more troublesome than you could potentially gain from it.

In general, the AH is a very fine mechanic that will balance it out on it's own for most the time. It only gets problematic once people mass up cards, get monopolies and demand horrendous prices. In the original game, this was really bad (especially towards the game's end).

This is the only potential problem and if you are serious, you should mitigate this with boosters. You should assign a very rough value to every card quality (common, uncommon, rare and ultra rare) and if the average/median value of all cards in the AH exceed a certain magnitude of that value you should act.

"Acting" in this case doesn't mean providing more supply, but simply increasing the likelyhood of getting a card in a booster. More supply will automatically mitigate the effect and dump the price, making hoarding cards unattractive to begin with.

Or just limit the amount you can have of every card to about 20? Fix the hoarding and you fix the market manipulation.

I am all for having a more dynamic system where higher demanded cards are provided in boosters with a higher supply (to some degree, this should not circumvent the rarity of cards). But I suppose this would be difficult to implement right.

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To be clear--this is just when the game starts, right? So you mean when the game starts, the AH will come preloaded with cards and when those expire, it's over? Idk, I think there are pros and cons, but overall it could be worthwhile just to get some cards in the game--I think most people wouldn't want to sell early on, because they're not sure where the prices will stabilize.

 

A more interesting idea would be to have every card available for buyout in the marketplace. Data could be collected the determine the optimal price for each card, and then maybe make the perma-buyout at 1.25x or 1.5x this price. That should prevent price gouging, and also prevent inflation, leading to a more stable market. But it might not be necessary, since I think the market was fine and quickly stabilized in the old days.

 

Perhaps the best way to make the market healthy in the beginning is to give lots of milestones that give booster pack. For example, booster pack at 15 friends, booster pack when beat the campaign, booster pack in win your first pvp game, booster pack when play a sparring game longer than 15 mins, etc. And these quests might only be active for the first month of gameplay--so it would sort of kick-start those players who are joining at the start, and making the game feel fully alive ASAP.

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9 hours ago, ImaginaryNumb3r said:

Or just limit the amount you can have of every card to about 20?

Wether it is 20, 30 or maybe even 10 - or any other number - this is a very, very, very nice idea in my eyes! Developers should consider this idea.

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18 hours ago, Eirias said:

To be clear--this is just when the game starts, right? So you mean when the game starts, the AH will come preloaded with cards and when those expire, it's over? Idk, I think there are pros and cons, but overall it could be worthwhile just to get some cards in the game--I think most people wouldn't want to sell early on, because they're not sure where the prices will stabilize.

 

A more interesting idea would be to have every card available for buyout in the marketplace. Data could be collected the determine the optimal price for each card, and then maybe make the perma-buyout at 1.25x or 1.5x this price. That should prevent price gouging, and also prevent inflation, leading to a more stable market. But it might not be necessary, since I think the market was fine and quickly stabilized in the old days.

 

Perhaps the best way to make the market healthy in the beginning is to give lots of milestones that give booster pack. For example, booster pack at 15 friends, booster pack when beat the campaign, booster pack in win your first pvp game, booster pack when play a sparring game longer than 15 mins, etc. And these quests might only be active for the first month of gameplay--so it would sort of kick-start those players who are joining at the start, and making the game feel fully alive ASAP.

If any sort of balancing will be performed (which I hope, because parts of the game are broken) the prices of some cards are going to fluctuate enormously (potentially). You only have an "optimal" value in a completely static system.

Nonetheless, I fully agree that there should be a system in place that generates a lot of cards in the early days so there is a healthy population of cards.

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i dont like the idea the value of a card or any product is allways made by supply and demand and at the start the demand on several cards will be ultra huge and if u flood the market u crash the tradesystem. by selling cards that way u kinda force players to get as many BFP as fast they can which will only lead to multiaccounting.

in here there is no way to buy BFP u only get some from the daylies so in order to get faster cards in the system u could upgrade the daylies temporarly with maybe at the first months of release of whatever state adding a daylie where u must offer cards in the tranding system to get additional BFP and when u sell the card u get as well additional BFP. alldo those daylie-quest-rewards u only get during the 1. month.

that way u can increase the cardpool and boost the economy 

 

with more BFP each player can ehter buy the cards he wants out of the market place or try his luck with opening boosters and if 2k players open an additional booster a day over 30 days then u have 16000 cards more in the global cardpool at the first day and 480'000 cards more in the cardpool after the 1 month and those oly would be the additional cards and not combined with the cards that making an account and other daylies might bring and only on a playerbase of 2'000 but if i look in forum the registred are over 18'000 peoples

 

and a fully upgraded deck needs only 80 cards and the cards to upgrade a card must be grided in game and that will take some time

Edited by Asraiel

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