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Eirias

How to Make Egalitarian Tournaments & New Game Mode Proposal

Tournament Options  

14 members have voted

  1. 1. What options should be available to create a tournament?

    • OPPONENT SELECTION (TD selects manually, or automatically calculate a round robin double elimination with pools, etc)
    • NUMBER OF GAMES (Bo3 except for grand finals, which is Bo5, etc.)
    • MAP SELECTION (Which maps are legal--including user maps...perhaps certain maps are legal for certain points in the game, who chooses the map, is the map chosen randomly, etc.)
    • CARD SELECTION (The TD can limit the card pool--for instance, "OP" cards have to be U2 or lower, all cards are U3, certain cards are banned, everyone needs to play the exact same deck, etc.)
    • OPPONENT DECK VISIBILITY (You can see all/part of your opponent's deck, or maybe you can choose your deck plus 5 cards to show your opponent, etc.)
    • ENTRANCE FEE AND PRIZE FUND (the TD can add his own prize fund/pull from entrance fee...or maybe there is a way to ask the devs for a "standard" tournament prize for the winner if you're reputable, etc.)
    • LIMIT ENTRANTS (no one with ELO lower or higher than XXX can enter, etc.)
    • ALLOW IN-TOURNAMENT SPARRING (since you won't be able to use the cards except in tournament games, perhaps--inside the tournament--you could spar with others in the same tournament to refine your deck)
    • OTHER (specify below)


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The Battleforge Tournament scene has a few problems:

1. Low PvP playerbase

  • Hopefully this will no longer be a problem. With the current hype (and active youtube channels emphasizing PvP) my impression is that we have many new players who are interested to try out the game mode. I personally believe that if BF is to survive again, PvP needs a strong playerbase, so we should encourage it.
  • Having Tournaments (especially for new players) is a GREAT way to increase PvP participation. So the more tournaments we have (at least geared toward new players), the better the tournament scene will get.

2. Skill barrier to entry

  • If we don't have PvP players, we need to get them. That means they need to overcome the barrier to entry. In Battleforge, the skill barrier is not that high. Probably because of the (previous?) lack of knowledge about how to play PvP, a week of training on fundamentals and how to play will make a new player (with cards) better than 90% of the playerbase. Perhaps this won't be the case in Skylords Reborn, but I could certainly stand over someone's shoulders and coach him to victory very quickly in the old game.

3. Card barrier to entry

  • Here is the main problem, as I see it. Grinding needs to happen. Okay, cool. We accept that, and I'm sure the rate of card and upgrade acquisition will be similar. It's no fun if players can buy cards but not upgrade them, or vice versa. The only currency is time and I think that will be reasonable for everyone. Plus, it's nice to see your matchmaking increase as you acquire good cards (assuming that you can have a good deck in <1 month, for instance). But this does constrain players because certain decks are just cheaper than other decks. A clear "price meta" will emerge--not only is such a meta unfun to play and watch (if everyone has the same deck)--but it may skew tournament results (because veterans with more cards can play a more expensive deck that naturally counters the price meta--or maybe if I know that you only have a pure fire deck and I have all decks, then you only have 1 option and I can pick frost the whole time and you can't change).

We already discussed ad nauseam about removing upgrades, or some solutions around that. I'll link @ndclub's classic thread, as well as my suggestion to overcome the main problem he proposed.

 

Now, I want to discuss a potentially alternative solution. This solution applies ONLY toward tournaments, okay? Let's ignore whether or not upgrades are vital in standard PvP/PvE, and focus on tournaments. Regardless of your opinion on the former option, I hope we can all agree that tournaments will be vitally improved if every player has access to all cards U3 (like in the final days of BF). It puts everyone on the same footing.

So, how can we accomplish this without giving new players all the cards at U3?

I propose a NEW GAME MODE. Let's call it tournament mode or something. [Alternatively, we can skip "tournament mode" and just allow players in the sparring grounds to have access to all cards somehow]

Tournament mode would be set up by some tournament director (TD), and have requirements. For instance, a TD could want a tournament for players with ELO in a certain range, with certain rules for selecting maps and decks, and all players could access certain/all cards at a specified upgrade level. Perhaps I want a tournament open to all players, but you have to use only M units. Tournament mode would also be very fun for having these sorts of silly decks or ideas.

The main idea: in tournament mode, you play who the TD tells you to, and you are provided cards that can only be used in tournament mode. This limits you if the TD wants a silly tournament, and it helps you if you are a new player. Everyone is on equal footing.

What do you think? I know the devs removed tome mode because it was difficult to code and I think this would be coded the exact same way--but tome mode wasn't popular, and this might be worth coding. Even if it's not possible, we can still talk and idealize and maybe brainstorm another way to make it happen (like perhaps some form of account that has all cards and can't trade, and we can loan access to new players for tournaments).

 

TL;DR: I'm proposing a new game mode (perhaps to replace tome) that allows a tournament director to decide which cards (and upgrades) a player has access to. These cards would only be used in that specific tournament (you can't use my tournament cards in someone else's tournament, or use it for sparring, ranked, PvE, etc.), and will expire at the completion of the tournament.

 

I want to know your thoughts!

Edited by Eirias
anonyme0273 likes this

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I dont like this idea

 

first of all a new tournament mode might help organizing it does't help increasing the player base neither does it help to solve the skillcap problem wich in my eyes isn't really a problem.

i dont like the idea of promoting competitive tournaments towards ppl who are new to the game, don't get me wrong i would like to have more ppl playing battleforge aka skylords reborn competitive but i dont know what this would do yes i get that having full upgrades on every single card does help but it will not even be close to equalize the gap resulting when comparing the difference in skill.

i do think that upgrading a deck while playing pve is a great idea to introduce new players into the game i actually would like to see a deck level requirement not for sparring but for ranked ladder games in order to stop very new players to step into the ranked trap resulting in getting destroyed over and over again till they uninstall the game.

even lol among most other competitive games do have a ranked restriction forcing players to experience the game first.

 

 

bazzacah likes this

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6 hours ago, Anonymos said:

first of all a new tournament mode might help organizing it does't help increasing the player base neither does it help to solve the skillcap problem wich in my eyes isn't really a problem.

Oh, that wasn't my point at all... maybe I wasn't clear :(. I want players to say, "I lost because he is better than me, so how can I get better?" instead of "I lost because he has more cards than me, this game is dumb."

A lot of new players like PvP, but they are discouraged because they play against people with much better cards, or against much stronger players because of the small player pool. Then they don't have fun and stop playing, and the player pool gets smaller. As you said, players jumping immediately into PvP get trapped in the ranks and lose quickly. I think a controlled tournament environment would be a way for those players to taste the PvP experience without getting creamed.

The idea of the beginner-friendly tournaments would be to give these new players a feel of what it's like to have everything. First, they would play players of similar skill (because we coordinate a time in advance, so for the first several games, they for sure have a same-skill opponent). Second, they have an opportunity to try new cards/strategies. Third, it shows them what the game is like when they have cards (so they think "oh, in a month I could have this, so let's stick out the grind until then!"). Fourth, it gives them a sense of accomplishment (especially if we limited sections of the tournament--like there could be a section for players ranked 25+, 20-25, 15-20, etc. and the top 2-3 players from each section will advance and play a post-pools round. And everyone could get a prize, even for just participating). So even players who have been playing for a week will play in a pool of say, 5-6 players who have also been playing for a week, and even the player who lost every round will get a few bfp or something so he feels it wasn't a waste of time.

Most importantly, it develops a sense of community. You can make friends around your skill level because you played several games with them. You lose (eventually) to a high ranked player, and you can make friends and ask him questions to improve your game, etc.

These things will increase the PvP playerbase because players will continue to stick around, because they feel accomplished and connected with friends.

*Also, the ability to restrict cards or add a theme to a tournament would be really fun, imo. But it's not really possible to have a large "pure shadow only- no harvester or shadow mage" tournament without the ability to give the players temporary cards.

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i do admit that battleforge had huge problems getting new players to stick around but i doubt this itself would actually help.

i do think that collecting card upgrades and cards in generall was a crucial part in battleforge  since it was the part of the game witch kept us plalyers long term motivated 

i kind of agree that a tournament mode witch allows to ban certain cards or some kind of map -pool restriction would be a cool feature but i will defend my point i think it would be way to confusing to enable a completly new player all cards and upgrades (gonna catch this point later) it not only confuses people they also would have to play decks wich they are not used to  and lower the progress feeling when palying battleforge . I actually have no idea how long its gonna take a palyer to upghrade a deck to lvl 100 - 110 this is prob gonna be diffrent in skylords reborn but from what i recall i poeronly did not had problems with loosing due to card upgrades rather than loosing because i had absolutly no clue how to play pvp at all. 

 Possible problems reguarding new palyers and battleforge:

 

So first things first battleforge is a quique and verry complecatet game  the pvp games are very interactive  no fow means each player ahs to evaluate positions constantly timing is insanely important all this stuff comes with expirience but i think there should be, there has to be a better tutorial this is a project the whole comunity could work on in order to help new players along with some miner changes helping new palyers with the learning curve of the game:

i can just mention some ideas  i heared over the years or came up with on mylself:

1. better introduction of new cards the palyer hasent seen before to protect new battleforge palyers from  getting overwhelmed by informations and help them gethering good knowlade

-> maybe some kind of card evaluation platform could be nice where each card and its animation is saved and maybe even a small text providing useful gameplay ideas

specially important for spells since a lot of them have heavy impact and are hard to identify (aoc, oink, eruption, wildfire)

2. step by step guides  providing base concepts of each fraction and maybe even mentioning specific cards 

3. forcing new players to play some sparring matches to get an idea of decks other ppl are playing and a general idea of pvp much like the pve campaigen slowly starts with 2 player maps first and doesn't just drop the player right into a 12 player map where suddenly everybody tries to kill each other by using portal nexus to rob the reward :D

there are much more ideas but i guess this is going a bit off topic ...

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