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LittleLegend

Weekly PVP Map Discussion

15 posts in this topic

Hi ! Here I want to start a discussion about the various PVP Maps in Battleforge. I try to post a new map every week and then you can talk about your personal opinion of the map, tactical information ( like important choke points or Well/Monument positions) or just general facts. Maybe I will then gather the information and add it to the main post of the map, so we have a good summary of all the things to know about map X. Im very curious about whether the system will work or not and open for criticism from you guys. Maybe we can even talk about some PVE Maps, if it works.

So here comes the first Map:

HALADUR:

1.thumb.png.c31fea3bf7ffbc0c0741bfe618b0e7e2.png Haladur_Map.jpg.a69eee29ce516022b810edf641645e67.jpg

Mode: PVP

Players: 2 (1 vs 1)

Wells: 14

Monuments: 6

 

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I personally do like haladur a lot, however i feel that the choke points in the center are a bit too thin, t1 often ends up as a mexican standoff since whoever moves into the chokepoint is quite at a disadvantage. On this map frost can also be bullied quite a bit, especially if phasetowers or mortar are involved. Despite these issues i think the map is propably the most fairly balanced and offers quite a bit of tactical choice and gameplay variety.

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Posted (edited)

My Favorite/ first choice map.

-Well balanced / The most played tournament map ever. 

-Nice map to attack from multiple sides

-Slight disadvantage for Frost t1

-1st Base: Safe to take if you are comfortable in your t1 skills. With Frost (no Swift) and Nature (never take a well more than your opponent without a advantage) risky cause you can easily zoned out of mapcontroll +its dangerous against Scavy Rush (only Frost). If your opponent take that well and you think you have the better t1 you can go for the well cluster that blocked him out of the map. So you can force your opponent to fight t1, in that case the fight often do not last long, it puts your opponent under pressure.

-2nd Base: A bit safer to take, too risky for your opponent to attack this spot instant without taking a well (for the chance to backup), you have a bit time until he reached you, and have the advantage of summoning undazed units and blocking the choke points, also towers can mess up your opponents attack so a All-in in this situation is not the best for your opponent. Against MaranV or generally Frost t1 (no swift) i always try to contest that base (with Shadow T1), if you both start immediately you will reach this spot at the same time as your opponent, so you can force him to daze fight there, in that early stage Shadow is good enough to win this fight.  

-After you take one well no other Well is safe = can be contested. But also a opportunity to force your opponent into the choke point if he want to punish a well to much, this lead often to a cold war situation (no one want to make the first move so it often end in a static battle.)


Great map :).  

Edited by ImperatorSK

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@ImperatorSK

If you take 1 well (say the first one) why is the 2nd well no longer safe?

If it's safe for you to take the 2nd well (only) because I can't rush you even if I haven't taken a well, why is it NOT safe for you to take the 2nd well after we have both taken the first well?

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4 hours ago, Eirias said:

@ImperatorSK

If you take 1 well (say the first one) why is the 2nd well no longer safe?

If it's safe for you to take the 2nd well (only) because I can't rush you even if I haven't taken a well, why is it NOT safe for you to take the 2nd well after we have both taken the first well?

Lets say he take his second base so he have a close position to prepare an attack from this position, cause this base is in the middle he can split them from the start, also we are 100 Energy down on energy (for our second well what can be pretty easy punished) so we never can punish him for crossing the choke point, and it would be as on every other map a open fight with enough room for splits.

He is already close and come from both sides and after he cross the choke point he can split even more, how we want to defend this attack? We are low on energy so he will have always the majority of troops, if he properly micro his dazed units we not even can fast enough finish them before they are out of daze, and hurted units can be backuped to his base to heal up.

 

Of course we can build a Mortar (sure this can work if he is not close enough to punish the build up of the tower) but then we are even more down in energy, and probably not even have the energy for a nasty or a eruption and after he cross the choke point he can split them that only one troop can be attacked by Mortar, and this one can be microed away if the mortar start to fire. In this case we are 150 Energy down that are 3 Units more from his side.

Shadow can build phase tower (160 E), but it is the same as against mortar, if he is already to close he can punish this and even if your tower is fully build up we are still 100 Energy down.

 

 

I have often enough played that crazy well build up game, but good player always punish me for that, so no close wells without a advantage. But im aware that the majority of old Battleforge player dont punish mistakes and also havent the game knowledge and micro to punish that.

 

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4 minutes ago, ImperatorSK said:

Lets say he take his second base so he have a close position to prepare an attack from this position, cause this base is in the middle he can split them from the start, also we are 100 Energy down on energy (for our second well what can be pretty easy punished) so we never can punish him for crossing the choke point, and it would be as on every other map a open fight with enough room for splits.

He is already close and come from both sides and after he cross the choke point he can split even more, how we want to defend this attack? We are low on energy so he will have always the majority of troops, if he properly micro his dazed units we not even can fast enough finish them before they are out of daze, and hurted units can be backuped to his base to heal up.

 

Of course we can build a Mortar (sure this can work if he is not close enough to punish the build up of the tower) but then we are even more down in energy, and probably not even have the energy for a nasty or a eruption and after he cross the choke point he can split them that only one troop can be attacked by Mortar, and this one can be microed away if the mortar start to fire. In this case we are 150 Energy down that are 3 Units more from his side.

Shadow can build phase tower (160 E), but it is the same as against mortar, if he is already to close he can punish this and even if your tower is fully build up we are still 100 Energy down.

 

 

I have often enough played that crazy well build up game, but good player always punish me for that, so no close wells without a advantage. But im aware that the majority of old Battleforge player dont punish mistakes and also havent the game knowledge and micro to punish that.

 

Why does it matter if he takes the close well or middle well? I think he can split just as well if you have 1 well (in the middle) and he has 1 wells, as if you have 2 wells and he has 1...

What am I missing? If it is as you say, and having the middle well makes a large difference, is it safe to take the close well and middle well if he starts with the close well also?

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Why does it matter if he takes the close well or middle well?

Which well is for you the close well, all wells are kind of close, except the first ones.

25 minutes ago, Eirias said:

I think he can split just as well if you have 1 well (in the middle) and he has 1 wells, as if you have 2 wells and he has 1...

Yes he can split the same, but without a advantage and 100 Energy more from both sides he have to take care for the choke points as well, cause you have the energy to punish him for crossing, and you even have the advantage of defending with instant full heal units (cause of your well). On same Energy level the defender have a advantage.

 

25 minutes ago, Eirias said:

What am I missing? If it is as you say, and having the middle well makes a large difference, is it safe to take the close well and middle well if he starts with the close well also?

Its kind of risky, too. Its never nice to have the 100 Energy disadvantage.

 

Maybe i just dont understand your Questions properly to answer them :D.

 

Edit: Lunchtime so away for some time.

Edited by ImperatorSK

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@ImperatorSK

Okay, I labeled them :)

The close wells are A and X (close to main base) and the middle wells are B and Y.

1. If I take A and you try to rush me [I have well presence at A, you have +100 power] it is easy for me to defend your rush because of the chokepoint.

2. If I take B and you try to rush me [I have well presence at B, you have +100 power] you say this is easy to defend. Why?

3. If I take A and B, and you take Y and try to rush me [I have well presence at B, you have well presence at Y and +100 power], can you rush me? You say yes, but situation (2) and (3) seem mostly the same to me.

4. If I take A and B, and you take X and try to rush me [I have well presence at B, you have +100 power], can you rush me? Again, it seems like (2), (3), and (4) are the same.

 

What is the difference?

haladur.png

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Eirias said:

@ImperatorSK

Okay, I labeled them :)

The close wells are A and X (close to main base) and the middle wells are B and Y.

1. If I take A and you try to rush me [I have well presence at A, you have +100 power] it is easy for me to defend your rush because of the chokepoint.

2. If I take B and you try to rush me [I have well presence at B, you have +100 power] you say this is easy to defend. Why?

3. If I take A and B, and you take Y and try to rush me [I have well presence at B, you have well presence at Y and +100 power], can you rush me? You say yes, but situation (2) and (3) seem mostly the same to me.

4. If I take A and B, and you take X and try to rush me [I have well presence at B, you have +100 power], can you rush me? Again, it seems like (2), (3), and (4) are the same.

 

What is the difference?

haladur.png

Here was the misunderstanding ^^, under close wells i understand close to my opponent not to my own base :). Why would you say otherwise Frost is strong in close well situations (what would be also true cause a Scavy rush wouldnt work :D)

 

1. Yes you can easy defend that, but i can go to contest B and take there a well (or will be in favor for trades if you contest it, until i can take that well) . Mapcontroll blocked and if you want another base you have always to fight with me.


2. Of course you can take B and defend, cause im at this moment at Y so you have enough time to block the chokepoints and even enough time to build up towers, also you have some energy to spare -100 power but still enough to punish me in the time i want to cross the chokepoint and split. (Thats why i write the first well is always safe to take, anyone else can be contested), its through the distance between us and the energy both have to spend. If i take no well i have no place to backup my troops, this rush would be a all-in which can fail to alot of things, so no situation i want to risk.

Ok in rare cases i even risk that, if i know my opponent is not the best player, but something like that can cost you the game.


3. First of all if you take A, i would probably contest the B cluster to force you into battles, so if you want to take that you will be -200 and then it would be totally fine for me to fight you, i mean 200 Energy in early game where the energy flow is that slow, no way to loose this^^. 


But also if i take Y im fine to attack B, you are at about ~80 Ene at the B spot in the time you have the power to build that well im already halfway closer to you, in the moment you take that well you have no energy im close with my Swift + 100 E (so probably 2 Forsaken) in troops, With that majority of troops its no big deal to outmicro a player that have way less Troops, and can only spawn some from time to time (in the same rate like me, so i can even estimate your power for things like eruption easy), for sure i can spawn only dazed, but that is ok cause you havent the troops to kill them fast enough + i have the option to run with them while my troops still focused your troops. I think to build a tower would be wasted cause its already to late for that (you have to wait for the Energy and build up time), and there is enough space to split.


4. Yes i can, just the distance to my well would be way longer, also if you win that defend im in big trouble cause you can zone me out of the map (that is why i write you have to be confident in your T1), not the ideal case to attack. 
 

Edit: But im always up for improvments if you think thats wrong (also matchups play a role as Fire vs Shadow it can be totally different cause Shadow has certain advantages in defense and in early stage Sunderer arent that great), you have the chance to grab a player and test this on Haladur (streaming or Youtube would be nice, i have to much time at work :D ) :). 

Edited by ImperatorSK

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@ImperatorSK 

ah, okay. It's the overall power difference. That makes sense.

Let's imagine I take well A and you come to contest B. But my troops are there, so I block the chokepoints (basically like I just took B anyway). So you grab a well, maybe at Y or maybe one of the side ones (not labeled). 

When is it safe for me to take a 2nd well? With/without mortar?

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3 hours ago, Eirias said:

@ImperatorSK 

ah, okay. It's the overall power difference. That makes sense.

Let's imagine I take well A and you come to contest B. But my troops are there, so I block the chokepoints (basically like I just took B anyway). So you grab a well, maybe at Y or maybe one of the side ones (not labeled). 

When is it safe for me to take a 2nd well? With/without mortar?

If your opponent is called Radi (Worlds best player, not even hirooo can beat him or show me a recent replay where he beat him :P) never :D.

 

Against all other player about 200 Energy should be enough, with Towers even less (If both have the same energy). Frost T1 is earlier able to defend and with Nature T1 it is generally not recommended to take a well more (ok roots can be pretty strong at that map and maybe with treespirit it is also possible, but i prefer the safe way). If i already fight, and got a advantage of like 50-75 Energy (killed in units), i also consider to take a well to heal up my troops or to exchange a temorary advantage into a permanent if there are no other good spots to attack.

Ok i was in the past often greedy and even take a well without advantage if i dont know my opponent, but that is not the way to go, this was just a bad habit and can cost games.    

 

Otherwise you can take a well if your opponent takes one, if you arent sure that you can destroy it. Situations where the enemy well survived with about 40 HP can be annoying and cost you also games. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Hey! Interesting discussion between you two so far :) That was many useful information about the Map "Haladur", so lets talk about the next Map then, ok?  

Simai:

2.thumb.png.dc97f08ef0bd6ad3627ee8d09d421c84.png

Simai_Map.jpg.0be7edfce527e9a9a835ed271bda0d31.jpg

Mode: PVP

Players: 2 (1 vs 1)

Wells: 20

Monuments: 7

Edited by LittleLegend

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Posted (edited)

One of the least played maps in tournaments, yet in terms of balancing one of the best ones. You can play every single T1 on this map without getting punished too hard. Due to the high amount of wells the position in the middle isn't too relevant for map control, which allows nature & frost to get into the game to an extend without getting crushed entirely. That said the map is pretty anticlimatic & reaches late game stages pretty fast, which slightly favours pure Fire aswell as Timeless one decks. 

 

To get a little bit more in depth about the T1 on this map and why I think so highly about the balancing here

Fire:

-> Can use the middle against shadow, because it's full of choke points (which is favourable for Thugs & Eruption)

-> Has alot of ways to play around nature (split attacks) 

-> Can contest the T2 position against Frost T1 if the opponent builds an early well, but isn't really in danger because of the high distance between the wells on the outer sides

 

Shadow:

-> Can fall back to the side for a more open field, which is a favourable position to fight against Fire with a fast transition into attacks from multiple angles due to the high amount of possible walking paths

-> Can punish an overagressive nature player and has alot of room to go T2 if the enemy decides to stall out 

-> Can try to deny the T2 position for Frost, but can't punish the missing swift unit entirely

-> Can rush extra wells in Shadow Mirrors, because the map has some paths, that allow fast attacks

 

Frost:

-> can always take the first well against an aggressive Shadow T1 player

-> can always take the second well against Fire & passive Shadow players to save the T2 spot

-> you don't lose against nature anyways

-> Frost mirrors result in mass wells into magespam/T2, which is boring to play, but not unfair

 

Nature:

-> no close well situations allow a really refreshing game against Shadow T1, that requires good unit positioning and micro

-> Also Mortar isn't too effective because losing the spot in the middle isn't to relevant

-> you have no chance of winning against Frost in T1, but you can zone Frostmages early on and build up the T2 in the back which prevents an autolose

  

Downsides:

-> Some walls allow the archers to reach enemies power wells, which can be a turning point in alot of games (due to the fact, that the map isn't symmetrical the walls on the right path are much more dangerous) 

-> The map slighty favours the meta decks Shadow Frost & Pure Fire due to their great late game scaling

-> Spectator map didn't work properly (there was no starting void power) which made this map a non-factor in most tournaments 

 

Tips & cards to watch out for:
 

-> Don't contest the middle against Fire T1. Choke points make it harder to fight anyways and even if you get to secure the position your opponent may play pure Fire and you will pay the price if he makes use of cliffdancers

-> Simai is a very defensive map, which increases the efficency of cards like curse well

 

Edited by RadicalX

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9 hours ago, RadicalX said:

One of the least played maps in tournaments, yet in terms of balancing one of the best ones. You can play every single T1 on this map without getting punished too hard. Due to the high amount of wells the position in the middle isn't too relevant for map control, which allows nature & frost to get into the game to an extend without getting crushed entirely. That said the map is pretty anticlimatic & reaches late game stages pretty fast, which slightly favours pure Fire aswell as Timeless one decks. 

 

To get a little bit more in depth about the T1 on this map and why I think so highly about the balancing here

Fire:

-> Can use the middle against shadow, because it's full of choke points (which is favourable for Thugs & Eruption)

-> Has alot of ways to play around nature (split attacks) 

-> Can contest the T2 position against Frost T1 if the opponent builds an early well, but isn't really in danger because of the high distance between the wells on the outer sides

 

Shadow:

-> Can fall back to the side for a more open field, which is a favourable position to fight against Fire with a fast transition into attacks from multiple angles due to the high amount of possible walking paths

-> Can punish an overagressive nature player and has alot of room to go T2 if the enemy decides to stall out 

-> Can try to deny the T2 position for Frost, but can't punish the missing swift unit entirely

-> Can rush extra wells in Shadow Mirrors, because the map has some paths, that allow fast attacks

 

Frost:

-> can always take the first well against an aggressive Shadow T1 player

-> can always take the second well against Fire & passive Shadow players to save the T2 spot

-> you don't lose against nature anyways

-> Frost mirrors result in mass wells into magespam/T2, which is boring to play, but not unfair

 

Nature:

-> no close well situations allow a really refreshing game against Shadow T1, that requires good unit positioning and micro

-> Also Mortar isn't too effective because losing the spot in the middle isn't to relevant

-> you have no chance of winning against Frost in T1, but you can zone Frostmages early on and build up the T2 in the back which prevents an autolose

  

Downsides:

-> Some walls allow the archers to reach enemies power wells, which can be a turning point in alot of games (due to the fact, that the map isn't symmetrical the walls on the right path are much more dangerous) 

-> The map slighty favours the meta decks Shadow Frost & Pure Fire due to their great late game scaling

-> Spectator map didn't work properly (there was no starting void power) which made this map a non-factor in most tournaments 

 

Tips & cards to watch out for:
 

-> Don't contest the middle against Fire T1. Choke points make it harder to fight anyways and even if you get to secure the position your opponent may play pure Fire and you will pay the price if he makes use of cliffdancers

-> Simai is a very defensive map, which increases the efficency of cards like curse well

 

Nothing to add.

 

- Not one of my favorite maps but one of my most played, cause before MaranV always played Haladur in Sparrings, this was the map which he played 24/7 in sparrings. Was a good way to train the Stonekin mirror, cause to this time no one know about the Frost Mage spam so the Frost vs. Nature Stonekin mirror was fine on this map, and one of the more exciting matchups on that map.

 

- I saw rarely nice matches on this map, some with Cliffed Wareagles where intense and also Crystal Fiend + Defenders games, and a intense t1 Battle Hirooo against Hightech. But most of the time battles on this map end in a boring build up games with smaller trades until T3.

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