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Eirias

Controversial PvP Opinions

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Another 5-card-T3 deck:

Scavenger,Thugs,Sunstriders,Firesworn_fire,Sunderer,Eruption,Darkelf-Assassins,Nightcrawler,Skyfire-Drake,Gladiatrix_nature,Windhunter_shadow,Ravage,Motivate,Lava-Field,Warriors-Death_frost,Bandit-Lancer_nature,Soulhunter_frost,Swamp-Drake,Surge-of-Light,Curse-of-Oink

I made this, eventhough I know bandits is one of the weakest/hardest factions. 

I just liked it because it has so many options

- going with a lot of smaller units and attack different bases (nightcrawlers), use motive and/or heal (if T3 already)

- going iwth a single soulhunter and use warriorsdeath

- going with skyfiredrakes, windhunters and swampdrakes (never seen this before in pvp, is it any good or at least fun?)

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12 minutes ago, SilenceKiller99 said:

Another 5-card-T3 deck:

Scavenger,Thugs,Sunstriders,Firesworn_fire,Sunderer,Eruption,Darkelf-Assassins,Nightcrawler,Skyfire-Drake,Gladiatrix_nature,Windhunter_shadow,Ravage,Motivate,Lava-Field,Warriors-Death_frost,Bandit-Lancer_nature,Soulhunter_frost,Swamp-Drake,Surge-of-Light,Curse-of-Oink

I made this, eventhough I know bandits is one of the weakest/hardest factions. 

I just liked it because it has so many options

- going with a lot of smaller units and attack different bases (nightcrawlers), use motive and/or heal (if T3 already)

- going iwth a single soulhunter and use warriorsdeath

- going with skyfiredrakes, windhunters and swampdrakes (never seen this before in pvp, is it any good or at least fun?)

Will be a hard and frustating way to the top.

But i would add Rallying and Aura of Corruption. To split in t3 into Nature is not the best decision, its anyway hard enough to play Bandits succesfull and reach T3 but adding Heal, Oink, Swamp only for t3 acts like the worst possible way.

 

Maybe someone else can look over your Deck again, i think you forget other strong cards.  Could only look briefly over it, since i do not have much time.

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4 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

I dont care about reps, i would beat the most people anyways in T1 so they will never see my T3. And the ones where i can come to t3, are usually not better with their t3s, i add Cursed well for ultra defensive people like MaranV, Freemka, or some other guys where i forgot the names that delay the games until the last minutes, annoying to play, so i can bleed them out. 

I feel like if you're devoting an entire deck slot to a card to break ultra defensive decks, you might as well take t4? (aka earthshaker).

So on to the next controversial opinion: I think earthshaker is one of the BEST "t3" cards for fire-nature in a 2v2, and possibly has a use in 1v1 (if you can't break through church lamers, curse well bleeders, northstar defenders, etc.)

Reasons why it's good in 2v2: As a fire nature player, nothing I have in t3 scales up well. Perhaps fathom lords do, maybe I can play brannoc if none of the other 3 players have him, but basically once we reach a late t3 stage, I'm useless. This puts lots of pressure on me to win t2, or at least be winning t2 and enter t3 before my opponents. Now with earthshaker, I have a new plan. Be aggressive, but stall out the game to really high powers (strangely enough mortar and roots is possibly approaching similar defenses to other t2 or t3 towers). Usually, a shadow frost opponent is happy to let the game go to super high power, and then I surprise them with t4. True, earthshaker isn't an insta win, but it really helps and for 1 deck slot, I can play a completely different strategy than normal fire-nature (or I can keep my same strategy, with 1 less card in t3, which doesn't really matter. Usually in fire nature if you enter t3 and need more than giant slayers, you're not going to win).

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14 hours ago, Eirias said:

I feel like if you're devoting an entire deck slot to a card to break ultra defensive decks, you might as well take t4? (aka earthshaker).

So on to the next controversial opinion: I think earthshaker is one of the BEST "t3" cards for fire-nature in a 2v2, and possibly has a use in 1v1 (if you can't break through church lamers, curse well bleeders, northstar defenders, etc.)

Reasons why it's good in 2v2: As a fire nature player, nothing I have in t3 scales up well. Perhaps fathom lords do, maybe I can play brannoc if none of the other 3 players have him, but basically once we reach a late t3 stage, I'm useless. This puts lots of pressure on me to win t2, or at least be winning t2 and enter t3 before my opponents. Now with earthshaker, I have a new plan. Be aggressive, but stall out the game to really high powers (strangely enough mortar and roots is possibly approaching similar defenses to other t2 or t3 towers). Usually, a shadow frost opponent is happy to let the game go to super high power, and then I surprise them with t4. True, earthshaker isn't an insta win, but it really helps and for 1 deck slot, I can play a completely different strategy than normal fire-nature (or I can keep my same strategy, with 1 less card in t3, which doesn't really matter. Usually in fire nature if you enter t3 and need more than giant slayers, you're not going to win).

 

I tested also Earthshaker.

http://i.epvpimg.com/0zlwd.jpg

Earthshaker is ok, but

-There are maps without the possibility of T4

-Other maps have risky t4 spots and if you loose Map Controll this would not be possible

-It costs time and a Energy investement which only pay off if you be able to build it up and are able to kill a Cluster.

-If your Enemy reached first T3, you cant take the risk of going t4. He will pressure you alot so this high investment would kill you.

-With Amii Monument you would lose another Deck Slot

 

So it would only help against

a: Ultra defensiv people and only if they havent enough Offensive Power to pressure you to dead while you invest the 300 Power. 

b: against people where you are anyways in a big lead.

 

 

Edited by ImperatorSK

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1 hour ago, ImperatorSK said:

a: Ultra defensiv people and only if they havent enough Offensive Power to pressure you to dead while you invest the 300 Power. 

b: against people where you are anyways in a big lead.

Yes. IMO those are the hardest people to deal with as fire nature, esp in 2v2s. Also in 2v2s, you can be losing in high power scenarios (or you enter t3 winning, and then start losing), but this card can clutch the game out (the premise being that you only enter t3 winning and then lose if the power levels are too high).

But for instance, going to a generated map against someone like @Hirooo becomes nearly impossible without earthshaker.

Edited by Eirias

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23 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Yes. IMO those are the hardest people to deal with as fire nature, esp in 2v2s. Also in 2v2s, you can be losing in high power scenarios (or you enter t3 winning, and then start losing), but this card can clutch the game out (the premise being that you only enter t3 winning and then lose if the power levels are too high).

But for instance, going to a generated map against someone like @Hirooo becomes nearly impossible without earthshaker.

Against Hirooo it is hard enough to reach T2 or trade efficient, in the time you try to go t4 he would drink a coffee and after your T4 is up, he would smiling and you see only Grigory Nastys (with troll faces) all over the map, like he does If it was too boring in 2vs2, then he decided to nasty my monuments, cause we would win anyways.

Edited by ImperatorSK

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Phasetower is OP! I know there are players, topplayers among them, who will defend it because it is needed against nature and frost. And they are right! It is needed against frost and nature...but does it have to destroy everything they got with a brute force that was never seen before in Nyn and leave nothing but death and destruction? I felt it's power - it was tempting but also frightening, so i immediately put it out of my deck again!

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1 hour ago, SunWu II. said:

Phasetower is OP! I know there are players, topplayers among them, who will defend it because it is needed against nature and frost. And they are right! It is needed against frost and nature...but does it have to destroy everything they got with a brute force that was never seen before in Nyn and leave nothing but death and destruction? I felt it's power - it was tempting but also frightening, so i immediately put it out of my deck again!

For sure it is op against some decks. But why remove it out of the Deck, if you have a easier time against Nature+Frost. Its the same with mortar tower (ok it needs at least a bit more skill since it is immovable) but you will rarely see top player playing without them.

On my Stonekin acc i also hate it when i faced them, you need tons of micro against a Phase Tower spammer, and still get worse trades. Nevertheless, I use these cards myself in my pure fire and shadow accounts even if i did not need it, just cause it is the easier/relaxed way to win.

 

On Wazhai there power is absolutely crazy. Phase Tower need just 2 ports to attack the enemy base and Mortar need at least the controll of one of the sweet spots.

 

Here is a replay of that strategy, and i even perfectet it ^^, on this map i rape some really strong players with my phase towers, after i saw that by ElGeneral who beat me in a tournament with that nasty strategy.

 

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21 minutes ago, ImperatorSK said:

But why remove it out of the Deck, if you have a easier time against Nature+Frost.

I would feel comfortable playing it if it wasn't that strong, i think it needs a slight nerf before it's fair. If i was all about winning i wouldn't play the decks i play anyway. I understand i'm rather alone with that attitude but i don't want to win a game against a better player who micros his butt off with nature T1 while i just spam a tower. Of course i have a slight disadvantage against nature then but it's more fun and how many nature players are there anyway? I would consider putting it in my deck if BF starts and a lot of players start shadow with phasetower because as you know it's very strong in a mirror, too.

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10 hours ago, SunWu II. said:

I would feel comfortable playing it if it wasn't that strong, i think it needs a slight nerf before it's fair. If i was all about winning i wouldn't play the decks i play anyway. I understand i'm rather alone with that attitude but i don't want to win a game against a better player who micros his butt off with nature T1 while i just spam a tower. Of course i have a slight disadvantage against nature then but it's more fun and how many nature players are there anyway?

I was a long time in the same situation that i feel uncomfortable playing cards that can be considered strong, but noticed quickly that no one cares in high rank, they will always play the cards that are avaiable no matter how strong they were.

 

In the first metas some cards of Battleforge (mainly Fire) were just ridiculous strong (Mine in front of a well deal tons of damage, Sunderer and Mortar were alot stronger and also some other cards), that the top spots were just reserved for player with that cards.  Fortunately at the end the balancing was already really good so you can reach top spots with every deck.

At 9:48 you see how much damage Mine dealt to wells. Also i think the maximum damage was to that time really high so it was even worse against more targets.

 

10 hours ago, SunWu II. said:

I would consider putting it in my deck if BF starts and a lot of players start shadow with phasetower because as you know it's very strong in a mirror, too.

As Shadow player i never had a problem against Phase Towers for sure they can build them defensiv, but bound power is bad, and if they port them Shadow and Fire have enough offensiv power to destroy them in a blink. 

 

Edit: Ok in that replay he say that he think mine has no damage limit. So it was for sure pretty overpowert.

Edited by ImperatorSK

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Old mine was completely bonkers ya. You would mine a well hurricane units into it and that would be worth since the well lost so much hp you could most likely destroy it.

About phase tower - thats a pretty hard card to balance because making the card too weak would result in a forced early t2 from shadow vs nature on every map where nature cant be forced to skirmish on 2-3 points to stop any kind of deathball. Since the map design sadly does not offer this we have to keep phasetower kind of viable.

I think the only way mortar can be considered op is in a close well situation. To not take these doesnt cost you map control on most maps but on the ones where it does its really strong. A way to fix this without nerfing the needed defensive capabilities of mortar would be to reduce its damage against buildings by a drastic amount. Fire needs to be able to block a frost or nature mid to late t1 spam if the fire player covers the angle in advance. Otherwise forced early t2 jadajada - that would screw balance harder than old voidstorm.
So while mortar is pretty close to where it should be phasetower can be too strong spammed when used against nature. To be honest I am not convinced porting offensively against Frost is too strong. IGs are really good when you cant kite them and the vulnerability effect helps obviously. So a mix of phase tower and nox/forsaken would be used wich would fight against a MA IG homesoil ball. If you port into that I dont think you really win this but I havent played that for a long time so maybe its a bit more problematic than I remember. In a shadow mirror skeleton warriors have a bigger impact on the match up and neither are autoinclude.  For fire you have multiple tools to counter phasetowers. So its honestly mostly about nature. And nobody cares about nature players. On maps with small alleys to use phase tower in primal defender completely nullifies them. On maps with wider chokes while being close enough to use phase towers nature looses. Thats uhm bad. Wouldnt giving a unit mostly used against shadow the ability to clear buildings (!= structures) band-aid the problem? Give werebeasts  300% dmg against buildings. Spearmen seem to be the fitting choice.

Edited by Hirooo

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3 hours ago, Hirooo said:

Old mine was completely bonkers ya. You would mine a well hurricane units into it and that would be worth since the well lost so much hp you could most likely destroy it.

About phase tower - thats a pretty hard card to balance because making the card too weak would result in a forced early t2 from shadow vs nature on every map where nature cant be forced to skirmish on 2-3 points to stop any kind of deathball. Since the map design sadly does not offer this we have to keep phasetower kind of viable.

I think the only way mortar can be considered op is in a close well situation. To not take these doesnt cost you map control on most maps but on the ones where it does its really strong. A way to fix this without nerfing the needed defensive capabilities of mortar would be to reduce its damage against buildings by a drastic amount. Fire needs to be able to block a frost or nature mid to late t1 spam if the fire player covers the angle in advance. Otherwise forced early t2 jadajada - that would screw balance harder than old voidstorm.
So while mortar is pretty close to where it should be phasetower can be too strong spammed when used against nature. To be honest I am not convinced porting offensively against Frost is too strong. IGs are really good when you cant kite them and the vulnerability effect helps obviously. So a mix of phase tower and nox/forsaken would be used wich would fight against a MA IG homesoil ball. If you port into that I dont think you really win this but I havent played that for a long time so maybe its a bit more problematic than I remember. In a shadow mirror skeleton warriors have a bigger impact on the match up and neither are autoinclude.  For fire you have multiple tools to counter phasetowers. So its honestly mostly about nature. And nobody cares about nature players. On maps with small alleys to use phase tower in primal defender completely nullifies them. On maps with wider chokes while being close enough to use phase towers nature looses. Thats uhm bad. Wouldnt giving a unit mostly used against shadow the ability to clear buildings (!= structures) band-aid the problem? Give werebeasts  300% dmg against buildings. Spearmen seem to be the fitting choice.

I was actually talking to @RadicalX about this earlier today. What do you think about a nature spell that works like ward of the north, except it only stops damage done by buildings? Or that might be too strong against defensive mortars/phase towers. What if the spell was something you cast on your own building, and it creates a radius around the structure where units take 1/2 damage against structures? (maybe need to specify as a well or orb, otherwise 2v2 abuse with ice barrier?)

Giving nature siege might be overkill....

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4 hours ago, Eirias said:

What if the spell was something you cast on your own building, and it creates a radius around the structure where units take 1/2 damage against structures? (maybe need to specify as a well or orb, otherwise 2v2 abuse with ice barrier?)

I would not use a spell with radius and duration where the danger exist that the Phasetower player port away and that would be not that great in the other matchups. Maybe a Dryad with another affinity, who can disable towers with her sleep and spleepy units/builduings (no wells, monuments) get like 25% more damage.

4 hours ago, Eirias said:

Giving nature siege might be overkill

If that happened i go back to the roots :D. 

 

But another question wouldnt be Treespirit good enough against Phasetower? i do not want to see any more players with them, but for the sake of interest. 

 

Edit: i like the suggest of Hirooo to decrease the damage of Mortar to builduings. it would be weaker in Cliff/wall, Close well and 2vs2 situations like on Danduil, and the def. Mortar is as strong as ever

Edited by ImperatorSK

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3 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

But another question wouldnt be Treespirit good enough against Phasetower? i do not want to see any more players with them, but for the sake of interest. 

I can show you a game between Hirooo and Aragorn if you're interested. Aragorn loses in 2 minutes with treespirits AND primal defender in his deck x)

-> Phasetower has a higher stat/cost efficency compared to Treespirits and also better stats than most T2 units 

-> Treespirt (green) doesn't apply the poison against buildings; the purple affinity actually doesn't just avoid buffs, but also debuffs, which is absolutely awful against the teleport ability

-> Phasetower outranges Treespirits (repositioning takes alot of time for them and they are probably nearly dead before they get to shoot once)

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1 hour ago, RadicalX said:

I can show you a game between Hirooo and Aragorn if you're interested. Aragorn loses in 2 minutes with treespirits AND primal defender in his deck x)

-> Phasetower has a higher stat/cost efficency compared to Treespirits and also better stats than most T2 units 

-> Treespirt (green) doesn't apply the poison against buildings; the purple affinity actually doesn't just avoid buffs, but also debuffs, which is absolutely awful against the teleport ability

-> Phasetower outranges Treespirits (repositioning takes alot of time for them and they are probably nearly dead before they get to shoot once)

I'm there when you stream, and even if not, i can always watch your recent videos :). Ok my error was in the assumption that the poison apply to builduings, so that was also the reason why ice barriers where good against them.

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10 hours ago, Eirias said:

I was actually talking to @RadicalX about this earlier today. What do you think about a nature spell that works like ward of the north, except it only stops damage done by buildings? Or that might be too strong against defensive mortars/phase towers. What if the spell was something you cast on your own building, and it creates a radius around the structure where units take 1/2 damage against structures? (maybe need to specify as a well or orb, otherwise 2v2 abuse with ice barrier?)

Giving nature siege might be overkill....

 
2

The spell you mean is called Ward of the North. And nature has a spell like that called revenge. Its t3 just like ward thought so doesnt really help.

I am not talking about siege. Wanted to point that out with the "not structures" part. A bonus dmg against buildings (so not wells/orbs/walls) would not impact the game in any way besides helping nature attack/defend against mortar/phasetower.

 

Edited by Hirooo

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5 hours ago, Hirooo said:

The spell you mean is called Ward of the North. And nature has a spell like that called revenge. Its t3 just like ward thought so doesnt really help.

I am not talking about siege. Wanted to point that out with the "not structures" part. A bonus dmg against buildings (so not wells/orbs/walls) would not impact the game in any way besides helping nature attack/defend against mortar/phasetower.

 

Yeah, I said ward of the north....and yeah, the point of the spell would be to reduce damage taken by buildings (maybe spells too? That way could could protect against something like nasty surprise, or eruption shotting wells, and it's more than just a 1-card counter).

I didn't get the "not structures" part. Are there any effects that deal bonus damage to buildings but not orbs/wells? I.e. is that codable?

10 hours ago, ImperatorSK said:

I would not use a spell with radius and duration where the danger exist that the Phasetower player port away and that would be not that great in the other matchups. Maybe a Dryad with another affinity, who can disable towers with her sleep and spleepy units/builduings (no wells, monuments) get like 25% more damage.

Phase tower port has a cooldown. I think 25% more damage is OP.

 

Is the main phase tower problem that it's OP in offense, or defense? A simple offense solution would be to increase the port vulnerability. Maybe if it took something like 500% damage after porting, it could still be useful in defense and have SOME use in offense, but you couldn't mindlessly spam them. Even after porting, it would be like a 900 attack, 240 ranged hp unit, which is still not terrible for 60 power and t1.

 

Off topic, everyone talks about how you can't nerf phase tower to death because otherwise shadow loses to nature t1. How does the fire vs nature t1 go?

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12 hours ago, Eirias said:

Phase tower port has a cooldown. I think 25% more damage is OP.

 

Is the main phase tower problem that it's OP in offense, or defense? A simple offense solution would be to increase the port vulnerability. Maybe if it took something like 500% damage after porting, it could still be useful in defense and have SOME use in offense, but you couldn't mindlessly spam them. Even after porting, it would be like a 900 attack, 240 ranged hp unit, which is still not terrible for 60 power and t1.

25 % more damage against single targets in sleep is ok, compared to the 25 % less damage to all units that scale also better through heals. But it should not be possible to play the blue affinity if one of these is on the field, double Dryad with different boosts sound scary.

And i think in defense every tower is well balanced, but if you build them in offense where the opponent cant avoid them, they grant to much stats per energy.

If we increase the vulnerability it would also affect all other matchups (but i see him mainly against Nature as to powerfull, Frost is weak early but can also outscale them) and without his offensive usefullness the tower is not that great.

 

12 hours ago, Eirias said:

 

Off topic, everyone talks about how you can't nerf phase tower to death because otherwise shadow loses to nature t1. How does the fire vs nature t1 go?

 

With the standard Cards, Nature is slighly in favor Dryad spam is good against Fire, there are also cards like spearmen that are good against fire. But Fire have still opportunities to win t1 especially with mortar.

Frost vs. Nature is still a more unbalanced Matchup. Frost can just spam Frost Mage and the unit that was supposed to balance this matchup (Treespirit), is against all other decks better, but failed against op Ice Barriers xD. I never tried a Swiftclaw rush, in theory this should be equal to a Svavy Rush on bigger maps.

 

 

Edited by ImperatorSK

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