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DerFahrrad

Legendarys not 1 at a time but 1 per player

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So i was thinking about the good old days on Bad Harvest and the frustrating and sometimes weird teammates i got there.

You all know these guys:

Steal 1 or 2 Monuments from you and act like YOU are the crazy person here while building a Amii-Monument in the back.

And then these 5 to 7 orb dudes really mess up your fun because theres not even a Amii-Monument you could build.

(or these guys who spawn in a promo and a normal ravenheart to let them rot in theire base cause theyr to slow but wont kill them so you could spawn one in)

 

So after this explanation i would suggest making Legendarys not a 1-per map use but to make them 1-per player.

Expect The Incredible Mo statue of course.

How this would be possible develoment whise, i dont know but id like to hear from you guys if im the only one that entcountert this problem

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I disagree. Legendaries are special in being usable in any orb colour, therefore I do believe there should be one weakness, or else everyone would have a Legendary without any risk, being usable in every deck. What's more imagine all players have a Mo..... That's Juggernaut madness except you dont have to go pure fire. You might think it doesn't really matter, but I believe that having 2 Juggernauts without any of you going Pure Fire is wrong. Also, something less important is that it goes against with the lore. Legendaries portray Building/Units that are not a species themselves, but an individual. I think seeing a clone of an individual, 12 times max would be weird, lore-side.

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4 minutes ago, BionicReaper said:

I disagree. Legendaries are special in being usable in any orb colour, therefore I do believe there should be one weakness, or else everyone would have a Legendary without any risk, being usable in every deck. What's more imagine all players have a Mo..... That's Juggernaut madness except you dont have to go pure fire. You might think it doesn't really matter, but I believe that having 2 Juggernauts without any of you going Pure Fire is wrong. Also, something less important is that it goes against with the lore. Legendaries portray Building/Units that are not a species themselves, but an individual. I think seeing a clone of an individual, 12 times max would be weird, lore-side.

 was gonna react myself but @BionicReaper said basically what I wanted to say. Yeah, Legendaries should be kept the way they are. It's not that I don't feel the pain of having people be trolls and do that, but it doesn't happen every game, so it's a minor issue in my opinion.

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well promos are not so lore friendly then i guess.

Ok your Mo argument is good but its just 1 unit in your army and a super expensive one too.

I didnt even think about pvp but i guess they arent used that much there.

My core desire would be to atleast make the Amii-Monument 1-per player to avange your stolen orbs

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Additionally, it's not the system in fault, but the players. I believe your suggestion is just the same (and bad in my opinion at least) as saying that because my partner MIGHT take 4/6 of the orbs in my vicinity, I should have 8 orbs in my vicinity, so that I would be able to orb up without any problem. It just doesn't fit, in my opinion. I think that, faulty system or not, playing 2v2 with a stranger as a teammate is generally a bad idea, and that's basically the problem, because teamers in 2v2 tend to go solo and not like a team.

 

Edit: @EonBen you replied whilst I was writing this xD.

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2 minutes ago, DerFahrrad said:

My core desire would be to atleast make the Amii-Monument 1-per player to avange your stolen orbs

I mean, Amii Monument is a card that has problems to begin with with being quite broken, but that's a topic for another day, as well as that i think that there are alread topics discussing this.

2 minutes ago, BionicReaper said:

Edit: @EonBen you replied whilst I was writing this xD.

LOL

Edited by EonBen

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Just now, DerFahrrad said:

well promos are not so lore friendly then i guess.

Ok your Mo argument is good but its just 1 unit in your army and a super expensive one too.

I didnt even think about pvp but i guess they arent used that much there.

My core desire would be to atleast make the Amii-Monument 1-per player to avange your stolen orbs

So map control costs a little bit more amount of power and you need 0 skill to make. Which means if you have Power Advantage then your opponent doesnt have any reason of taking map control. Also, for your information, Brannoc is popular in pvp, as well as Mo. Finally the Amii Monument idea is still bad as I mentioned in my previous post. If games worked like that then all mobas should add 2 extra lanes just because the support heroes MIGHT steal the last hits.

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wow did not think i was so alone with that feeling. but hey thats why we have a forum i guess.

thanks for your input guys

Edited by DerFahrrad

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30 minutes ago, DerFahrrad said:

wow did not think i was so alone with that feeling. but hey thats why we have a forum i guess.

thanks for your input guys

Well you for sure aren't alone with that feeling. You're not the only one that was extremely angry with stupid teammates. I just think and understand that's its the peoples' fault and not the system's.

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but dont you think a system thats abusable in that kind of way is flawed and should be changed ?

 

i guess they wont change it cause the hand full of competetive players forcing rules upon the causals are way to influentual.

and i see that the amii-monument is bull**** in competetice and nearly like cheating but the normal game flow, the normal not sweaty fun would be pretty good without restrictions like that.

well i guess its doomed to be like it always was... damn...

 

Just let a filthy causal have some fun.

 

jokes aside, i now see that the competetice szene would suffer tremendosly under changes like this. But you gotta have some hope... always

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1 hour ago, DerFahrrad said:

but dont you think a system thats abusable in that kind of way is flawed and should be changed ?

 

i guess they wont change it cause the hand full of competetive players forcing rules upon the causals are way to influentual.

and i see that the amii-monument is bull**** in competetice and nearly like cheating but the normal game flow, the normal not sweaty fun would be pretty good without restrictions like that.

well i guess its doomed to be like it always was... damn...

 

Just let a filthy causal have some fun.

 

jokes aside, i now see that the competetice szene would suffer tremendosly under changes like this. But you gotta have some hope... always

You are not only hurting the competetive side of things - if Amii-Monument stays like it is right now and making it useable by everyone you completely kill the map design.

Even the current Amii-Monument does that in solo player maps and to an extend in multiplayer maps - if everyone can use it you basically play maps til t3 - and then its pretty much a free win. That would kill a lot of fun of the game, right? I'd rather have a troll every now and then instead of making every single map a joke past t3 :).

Only positive about this:

New speedrun Meta :kappa: 

I think there is probably better solutions for trolling people ;)

Edited by Treim

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at least i tried a diffrent way of tackling the problem. I could of course just use shadow units with friendlyfire and make a team mate my enemy but i would love to know a way or mechanic to deal with this because either way if this happens(orb steal) , and it happend to me way too many times, the player or the game get hurt.

common guys dont just say: "oh DerFahrrad your talking a load of bull****" try to help a normal player thats past exerience regarding orb steal werent so few or overlookable.

 

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The question I ask myself when reading your suggestion is: Are legendary cards for that much ? I mean, even if you could spawn the legendaries yourself (1 per player), do you really have enough legendary cards in your deck for it to be any effective? Especially looking at the T4 Legendaries when you can much easier just spam a lot of T4 units from the color you are currently playing. Assuming the player has 1-2 legendary cards max in his deck, I don't see how an extra legendary in the battlefield will help that much, unless you go for a full T4 Legendary only deck :P 

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4 hours ago, Dallarian said:

What cards are legendary? All Amii?

all the collourless cards that need no specific orbs to be used, only a certain amount of orbs. Cards like Brannoc, Viridia, Mo, Rogan, Moon, Easter Egg, Jorne, etc.

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it s just the thing that bugs me brutally ia any game. why limit the fun ?

like Destiny: only 1 exotic at a time.  thats so limiting.

well i guess a hobby modder like me naturally doenst like limitation and forces the game to be the most fun for me.

 

i personally think that it lowers the overall value of a legendary if ur not able to reliably use it and make it... well make it legendary and not "oh sorry that good card you have and like is already taken please use another one" thats a cheap way of of limitation. common i cant be the only one who thinks thats cheap.

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1 minute ago, Dallarian said:

So 2 Moons can't be played at same time? O-O

yup. however with cards that have a promo version you are able to have a regular and a promo version, for example you can have one Mo and one Mo Promo but can't have two Mo's or two Mo Promo's.

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This game is about Teamplay. You don´t know your teammate and they are trolling? What stops you from... quitting the game? There is no punishment for doing so iirc.

 

4 minutes ago, DerFahrrad said:

i personally think that it lowers the overall value of a legendary if ur not able to reliably use it and make it... well make it legendary and not "oh sorry that good card you have and like is already taken please use another one" thats a cheap way of of limitation. common i cant be the only one who thinks thats cheap.

Legendaries were designed around the idea of having only one of em for the Team to begin with. Don't like that? Well, tough luck.
Coordinate with your team. Think about why the Deck Request feature exists (possibly to coordinate with your team so that you don´t waste 3 slots because 4 ppl run lets say Mo).
This game doesn't prevent you from having "fun". This way of limitation isn't "cheap" as those cards were created with the idea of only being able to have one of em out at the same time.

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yeah and the game was desing to be a 60$ game too.

you dont need to religiously follow old concepts.

and quitting the game because of problems like this is just looking away from the problem and NOT a solution.

i agree teamplay is important its very important but i would have not made this topic if i just could "request their decks and make some team strategie"

sadly a lot of palyers did not even respond to whispers so i think its a loosly made system and i would like to see a change or ATLEAST a other solution then the existing flawed system for times like this

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25 minutes ago, DerFahrrad said:

i agree teamplay is important its very important but i would have not made this topic if i just could "request their decks and make some team strategie"

sadly a lot of palyers did not even respond to whispers so i think its a loosly made system and i would like to see a change or ATLEAST a other solution then the existing flawed system for times like this

This is not a problem in game design, this is a problem in the community. And like I said earlier, you can always just leave if the team does not suit your needs.

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no its a problem with both but right now we could change 1 side of it. the community will stay no matter what but if ur changing the interacting system to suit the community better it will have better results than not doing anything a all. even minor thing would help like a bar that schows all legendarys in all current decks in the lobby or something like this.

i just dont want to watch silently and do nothing about it

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The legendaries are definitely an interesting topic to talk about. I agree with the fact that most legendary cards are poorly designed, but making them available for every player just doesn't fix the problem at all. 

 

As far as I know there are 19 legendary cards in the game (maybe I forgot something, but I'm too lazy to check it, just tell me if any cards are missing), so let's take a look at them. I will disregard the fact, that it doesn't make sense anyway to have something like 4 Jornes running through the map, the following text is just an analysis about the card-balance and possible implications:

 

 

1) Curse Well

Current strength of the card: 

-> In PvE this card has no use at all 

-> In PvP this card is broken, due to the fact, that it has no counterplay & current Timeless-One based decks can deal with counterattacks easily

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, because you can play this card multiple times anyway since it's a spell

 

2) Curse Orb

Current strength of the card: 

-> In PvE this card has no use at all 

-> In PvP this card has some hidden potential, but saw no play at all. The deactivation of an orb for 20 seconds is really powerful and can decide games in the late T3 stage. The major problem of this card is the fact, that the defensive decks in the current meta revolve around double frost splash T3's (Timeless One), therefore deactivating an orb would still leave most defensive capabities of the deck untouched, because most of the time the units got played already to deal more efficiently with the attack & the possibilty to play building protects & additional cc remains. 

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, because you can play this card multiple times anyway since it's a spell

 

3) Easter Egg

Current strength of the card:

Uhm ...

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, because you could play Easter Egg multiple times anyway 

 

4) Ravenheart

Current strength of the card: 

-> The card has next to no use in PvE, because it has mediocre abilities and a low cost/stat efficency.

-> T4 wasn't a thing in PvP, therefore the card didn't see play here aswell

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, because Ravenheart is just a bad card & good players won't use it anyway

 

5) Amii Monument  

Current strength of the card: 

-> If you talk about PvE this card is the strongest card in the entire game. It's utterly broken & shouldn't exist at all, because it makes the classic PvE-maps so easy it's laughable.

-> In PvP the card didn't see any play, because T4 in PvP is inefficent mainly due to its high costs & not because of the missing T4 spot

 How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> As @Treim said you would kill the entire map design in PvE. In 4 player maps you would gain 4(!) extra orbs, that aren't supposed to exist. And these orbs even bind LESS power than the classic T4, which makes it even worse. 

 

6) Lord Cyrian

Current strength of the card: 

-> The Card was way too expensive, its stats were sort of okay, especially in combination with the enrage ability, but investing 380 power into a T3 unit, that doesn't translate too well into the T4 stage isn't that great for PvE.

-> In PvP the card was just too expensive, therefore it's useless as a defensive unit & 380 power can be invested in much more efficent offensive units aswell.  

 How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, because the card doesn't have any high values

 

7)  QueekQueek

Current strength of the card: 

-> In PvE QueekQueek is just not cost effecitve at all, therefore you have no reason to use it

-> In PvP the card would be so cool due to its teleport ability (I even tried to play it for a while ...), but the attacks are so slow and don't do enough damage & cheaper air units even outclass QueekQueek in 1v1's therefore it's not even useful as an anti air unit

 How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, because the card didn't see any play

 

8) Mo 

Current strength of the card: 

-> In PvE Mo has a similar problem like Cyrian. The card is really expensive and is worse than other T4 units later through the game. The abilities have a really high potential & I think the thoughts behind the card design are really good & definitely one of the better designed legendarys since its abilities "Group Hug" & "Mo's better blues" revolve around other near units. The big problem is the fact, that the values are just too low and therefore the card isn't worth to play. If there are any balance changes in the future I would love to see some buffs onto these abilities (especially since they wouldn't have an implications for PvP).

-> In PvP Mo got used in shadow splashes (pre splicer & nasty nerf) & pure Nature, because void manipulation allowed you to get 350 power in T3 without giving up too much pressure. Mo's ability "Stampede" was incredibly strong as a basenuke & makes him still worthwhile in pure Nature.

 How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, because the card would potentially just be played twice in pure Nature mirrors in PvP & since 99% of pure Nature mirrors used to end in T1 this situation just wouldn't occur.

 

9) Moon

Current strength of the card:

-> In PvE Moon is just not really effective, because she's expensive and in T2 you don't need to many units, because you would either keep fighting with your big T1 army & support it or rely on some cards, that are incredibly powerful in T2 and do sort of everything on their own (Shadow Phoenix as an example).    

-> She used to be really damn strong in PvP, where she was great to pick off units with her teleport ability & could destroy L units entirely. But after the nerf nobody played her, because other L counters were just more efficient and it's not worth to invest a slot for Moon.

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> No one played her, no one would play her afterwards

 

10) Santa Claus

Current strength of the card:

-> In PvE he is definitely useful, when he has his abilities availabe. The gifts were pretty powerful & the card was fun to play around. Apart from that he was ... let's say not so good. 

-> In PvP he just entirely usless. His cost/stat efficency is utter garbage and since its abilities revolve around other units around him there was no way to set that up properly without getting crushed in the meantime.

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> maybe we would get a very small benefit on split PvE maps (under the condition that his abilities are available)

 

11) The Incredible Mo

Current strength of the card:

-> Great card for PvE. Honestly, it's the best designed legendary card. He has 3 super powerful abilities (okay, 2 powerful abilities, the Thunderstorm based ability was below average, the other ones were super powerful though) that make him worth being played, every player gets a benefit from this legendary card & he leaves you with a decision about which ability you want to use for the rest of the game. 

-> In PvP the card was not played (too expensive; you would lose the game before you get the chance to activate it)

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> It would destroy one of the biggest upsides of this card. Currently you can chose just one buff at a time, having all buffs every game on 4 player maps would be just lame & also overpowered. 

 

12) Viridya 

Current strength of the card:

-> Used in PvE due to her healing aura. Apart from that the card has bad stats & while her Treespirits don't bind any power they don't scale into later gamestages which makes them irrelevant. 

-> Used to be played in Fire/Frost decks due to their lack of M/M Units (her Treespirits were used to compensate that weakness), but after Stormsinger got buffed Viridya was a dead card.

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Stacking the healing aura in combination (not sure if this would be even possible) with healing gardens would be pretty strong late game if one player keeps the viridya's save (with something like protectors seal), but that also requires teamplay and some coordination.

 

13) Rogan Kayle

Current strength of the card:

-> The aura isn't strong enough, therefore the benefit in PvE isn't worth binding 90 power

-> Rogan has one great upside for, his ability doesn't count as cc, therefore you can stack it with other cc sources. Pure Nature can make great use of this in the matchup against pure Shadow to defend against Harvesters by chain-cc'ing them. Apart from that we have a 90 power M/M unit, that is weaker than an Enforcer.

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Rogan saw next to no play & since his passive aura probably doesn't stack there is no reason to play him multiple times

 

14) Brannoc 

Current strength of the card:

-> Good stat efficency, decent ability, but for PvE he is outclassed by T4 units & that makes him just mediocre at best

-> Really powerful card in PvP. But the fact that he could be used once was a huge downside, because you had to live with the risk of beeing dead when your opponent manages to play his Brannoc first. Therefore he was unreliable, but also got a really high snowball potential in some matchups which make some people consider him even as overpowered. 

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> This would nerf the snowball potential, but buff the reliability of Brannoc as an XL counter. While some people think Fire Nature & Shadow Nature would benefit the most from these changes, the hidden winner of this change would be Fire Frost. Brannoc as a reliable XL counter would allow Fire Frost to play a well rounded Timeless one T3 and that makes him more toxic than anyone would believe in the first place. 3 viable Timeless one T3's are already more than enough 

 

15) Jorne 

Current strength of the card:

-> Stat efficency is pretty much okay. The value is decent for a legendary card, but the problem with Jorne is the fact that his aura is entirely useless, which isn't even his fault. He gives other legendary units a 50% damage reduction, but the other legendaries are all bad and you won't meet any of them in T4 (maybe Viridya for the healing aura). This lowers his efficency, but he still is a decent unit compared to most other legendaries.

-> As already mentioned, you didn't play T4 in PvP therefore Jorne saw no play around here

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Seing Jorne multiple times in games is a possibility, but it's not like his stat efficency is outstanding (he's just comparable to colossus) and the aura won't stack. At least they would protect each other, but that's about it. Not the biggest changes. 

 

16) Earth Crystal

Current strength of the card:

-> Bad card. The Crystals are pretty much all bad, because they usually require the entire deck to be built around them, while the benefits you gain for that are pretty small. I mean the idea behind this isn't too bad, but these cards have a playrate of pretty much 0%.

-> 100 bound power in PvP for nothing

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, the card is useless.

 

17) Ice Crystal

Current strength of the card:

-> Same thing as before, no benefits for this card.

-> Also useless in PvP

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, the card is useless

 

18) Fire Crystal

Current strength of the card:

-> Something that could be potentially strong is the combination with Batariel, because I think their rage effects are different and may stack up, which would be insane (but I never tried this by myself, so I can't say if this works or not), because there exist decks, that are already built entirely around Batariel. Apart from that there is no big use for this card either

-> We don't have to talk about the Crystals in PvP, they are too expensive

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Even if the Batariel interaction is legit it wouldn't stack up with multiple crystals therefore it's useless

 

19) Shadow Crystal

Current strength of the card:

-> Just outclassed by other strategies to make cards unbound.

-> Useless

How would the suggested change affect the gameplay:

-> Not at all, the card saw no play

 

 

Conclusion:

The suggested change would bring alot of problems with it due to the fact that Amii-Monument would be entirely broken (even much more than now), Fire Frost would end up with an OP-T3 in PvP, Inredible Mo would lose his unique identity and the other cards won't benefit from this change anyway, because they are useless either way. The major issue with legendary cards is the fact, that they are poorly balanced.

The Crystals could be buffed, so there is a way to build up decks around them in PvE, Ravenheart & QueekQueek are in the need of better stats, Mo & Rogan could get ability buffs, that revolve around their buffs to big armies (Mo could also get a heal change with a lower base value, but a higher max heal) and there is so much more stuff that could be done to give these legendary cards an own identity, that makes them worth a deckslot in PvE matches. Maybe we'll get to the point where we can talk about balance changes, but the current priority for the devs is to deliver us a playable game so it's time to lay back & wait at least for now. 

Best regards, 

RadicalX

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