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John

Poll: Changing the upgrade system

Changing the upgrade system   46 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the upgrade system be changed?

    • Change it
    • Keep it the same way
    • Remove it (will not happen)
      0
  2. 2. If it should be changed, what changes should be made? (Multiple choice)

    • Starting cards are already upgraded
    • Unupgraded card have twice the charges (one extra charge when fully upgraded)
    • Redistribute the charges for cards (more charges when unupgraded, same charges as in the old BF when fully upgraded)
    • (ONLY in PvP) All cards which are not U2, will be a U1 card and have 1 extra charges.
    • (ONLY in PvP) All cards which are not U3, will be a U2 card and have 2 extra charges.
    • (ONLY in PvP) All cards are U3 with 3 extra charges
    • Other suggestion (post it below)
      0
    • No changes

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

24 posts in this topic

Hello Skylords,

the topic of the upgrading system has been quite controversial when it has been discussed in the past. For PvE players the upgrade system presents a long term goal and an incentive to keep playing the game, however, this is different for PvP-only players. At launch the upgrade system will probably render certain decks in PvP unusable (lack of charges), essentially forcing players to grind PvE maps if they want to play their preferred deck. However, this is only one issue. As time goes on people will start to get their decks to level 100+ and everything will be fine since everyone has upgraded decks, right? Wrong. New players will have a very hard time getting into PvP since they have a low level deck, while the players who have been playing for a few months probably have a mid to high level deck. This can cause a lot of frustration and even potentially lead to them quitting the game. Personally, I think in PvP all cards should at least be U2 (if it isn't U3 already) and have two extra charges (if you don't have all three) . This keeps some kind of progression (reaching U3 with 3 charges will take just as long as before) while also immensely improving the new player experience. Additionally, at launch almost all PvP decks will be playable, due to the two extra charges. While this might not be a perfect solution, it's definitely an improvement. (The idea is from Kaliber84)

This post from LagOps also makes some good points. He also elaborates three of the change proposals from the poll.

Quote

I feel like i do have a rather strong opnion on the upgrade and charge system previously present in battleforge.

Usually new players do not know how to get tokens for upgrades and often don't even know you can actually add charges to a card. it is common to see new players playing the game with few upgrades and no charges for a long amount of time. the players will eventually get behind the upgrade and charge system, that is if they do not leave the game before that happens.

to not make players leave, you must give them the best experience the game can offer right from the start. however, you must also give them an incentive to keep playing, such as making it to deck level 120. this objective should be hard enough to reach to keep the player invested into the game while beeing reachable easy enough to not just make them leave the moment they realise how much grinding lies ahead of them.
upgrades in battleforge generate long term motivation, emoving them entirely would certainly harm the game!

i feel the overall the grind is not only a bit to long, penalizing switching decks a bit too much. but in light of the increased bfp gain, token packs can shorten the grind period to a more reasonable amount, so overall the time needed to grind and feeling of reward seem appropriate to me.


however:

there is one thing besides that which is entirely not ok the way it used to be: grinding was required to play the game in a satisfying way.

as soon as new players starts to play higher level pve he will realise that he just cannot win the map. is it because the free cards were terribly weak? not at all. are upgrades too strong? mostly not.
the real reason the player fails is the lack of card charges. while he has the power to play units, he must wait for their cooldown all the time. 1 charge for giant wyrm is laughable. there is nothing more frustrating in the game than losing because you were just not allowed to use your cards. a new player is likely going to inform himself about how best to grind the deck in case he did not leave in frustration yet.
in this case they likely start playing rpve to grind tokens. then it is only a matter of time until an experienced player carrys them through the map with bloodhorns and lost spirit ships. the new player will feel utterly useless waiting to spawn a second wyrm while others clear the map on their own. eventually he will often end up watching others win the game for him, going afk after hitting t4 with his team. not just once, but again and again. the amount of players still sticking around should be fairly low now. an additional pvp deck is wishfull thinking at best.


this leads to the question: why are charges in the game? what purpose do they serve? obviously to make players buy the same card 4x.

how could they even get away with that? the answer is simple: when the game was pay to play, you basically bought it without knowing this and you would not ragequit a game so easyly after spending money on it would you (sunk cost's fallacy)?

however, when the game became free to play, there was nothing to keep new players playing. aditionally the game was from ea, so you kind off expect to get milked. most players just leave, why would you even bother playing a pay to win cashgrab paying for the same card 4x?


How can we fix this issue?

sadly this mechanic is tied to upgrade levels and removing it entirely would imply handing out u3 max charge cards right from the start, effectively removing upgrades as well (which i would NOT support).

Basically we do have 3 viable options, some more easy to implement than others.

1. Every card in the starter deck (assuming it is the former free to play deck) start with at least upgrade 1 and charge 1. cards from boosters and auction house/trade still are u0. adding additional commons to the free to play deck to have it full 20 card decks might be nessecary. this change has the least overall impact and would be very easy to implement without the need to touch the client at all. this is definately possible with near 0 effort.

2. Every card starts with twice the base charges at upgrade 0, while charges still give the same amount of extra charges.
for example: giant wyrm would start out having 2 charges at u0 and 5 at u3 with max charges compared to 1 charge at u0 and 4 at u3 previously.
this will result in more charges at the highest upgrade level, which should still have minimal impact at high deck lvls for most cards.
this might be a bit harder to implement, but still doable.

3. Every card has the entire charges and charges per level adjusted. this is clearly the most work and might not be possible depending on the way card charges were implemented in the client.
for example a card with 5 inital charges followed this scheme:
5+5+5+5=20 charges. now we could adjust this to 8+4+4+4=20 charges, leaving lategame unaffected and allowing fine tuning. this will be a lot of work as there are many cards in the game even if it is possible. yet it is arguably the most satisfying solution with most controll given to the developers to adjust values.

I personally would be satisfied with option 1, but would prefer option 2 and 3 over it if it is easy enough to implement.


"but lagops, let's get the game running first and then think about such things" NEIN! NEIN! NEIN!
As soon as the game is launched we will have the most amount of new players trying it out. if we do not have the system implemented and tested by then, it will be all for nothing! if we make such a change (we really should), then it has to be in effect as soon as the game is launched.



Upgrades on the other hand are mostly fine in my book, cards rarely get much much stronger when upgraded. upgrade impact may be adjusted in a few extreme cases if that is possible. the limiting factor has allways been the amount of charges the cards have had.


tl:dr just READ the post will you? i put effort into it!

Here are some old topics where this was discussed:

Seperate PvP from PvE

Removing upgrade system from PvP

I feel like things might go wrong

Making it hard to get all the cards and upgrades

My one issue with the BattleForge reborn project - A proposal

Why I quit battle forge, and why I miss it.

 

EDIT: Split the poll into two parts.

 

Edited by John

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Thanks a lot for quoting my old post here! I sure was a bit salty reading the discussion in the old thread, but my opinion still stands. I still consider my proposed 3 options viable and really hope that we can make a change to improve upon this really frustrating progression system.

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If any change needs to be made, I'd just give cards in pvp more (max?) charges. I think upgrades should have to be earned to be used to rank yourself up.

 

HOWEVER!

I would like to see the option in custom, non-ranked pvp games to enable "all cards fully upgraded" so if I want to play with new-player friends, they don't have to sit at a numerical disadvantage to me. It would also allow easy-access theorycrafting for decks in an environment where doing so would be healthy.

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4 hours ago, nightrein said:

I would like to see the option in custom, non-ranked pvp games to enable "all cards fully upgraded" so if I want to play with new-player friends, they don't have to sit at a numerical disadvantage to me. It would also allow easy-access theorycrafting for decks in an environment where doing so would be healthy.

This is nice. I like this. I'm still not sold on removing the upgrade system (of course I personally am not ambivalent, but I'm concerned about the market effect).

This though, allows new players to test and practice whatever they want on sparring. It will encourage playing with friends, and gives them an incentive to play friendlies instead of going straight into the PVP death pit.

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On the first field make a tick at "Change it" and on the the second field make the tick at "No Changes"  :kappa: 

Just kidding, i like the way you get the upgrades, but it should be changed for the 12 player maps, i mean 12 players and only 4 upgrades was always tough to get your most wanted upgrade.

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" Starting cards are already upgraded " that made me chukle.
Anyhow, changes to the upgrade System would imo take a huge part out of the game as it was a extremely fun part of it. Grinding for upgrades gave me a sense of progression (smthg a game imo seriously needs) And making those changes PvP only would be unfair toward PvE player, while also changing the market alot (since you´d no longer need 4 Juggernaut cards for PvP).

I personally want the game to stay as it was, because that was the game I fell in love with.

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Thought about this myself, but now that there is one I don't even know how to vote! A large part of me agrees with Shotty in that I've played private servers of old games before and generally they've done something to change the game and even though it's usually a quality of life improvement it makes me sad that it's not the game I remember. I do disagree with one part:

1 hour ago, Shotty said:

"making those changes PvP only would be unfair toward PvE player

I'm a PvE player and I'd hate the upgrade system to be removed, it's what gives the drive to play, particularly with the new quest based BFP system. Though of course as I've said before, people are different and you can't please everyone so I'm sure there are PvE players who would find it unfair.

That said, I was a PvE player back then in large part because after trying a few PvP games against people with decks of 100-120 vs my 60-70 (and yes, I still won a couple) I felt disadvantaged and didn't want to waste time on it. That issue doesn't (shouldn't) exist in PvE as you play co-operatively, so I stuck to the place that felt 'fair'.

Long story short, part of me would like to see all cards given at least max charges in PvP becuase charges are where the biggest disadvantage is, but not enough to actively vote for it here, as I'll probably still end up a PvE player either way!

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14 hours ago, nightrein said:

I would like to see the option in custom, non-ranked pvp games to enable "all cards fully upgraded" so if I want to play with new-player friends, they don't have to sit at a numerical disadvantage to me. It would also allow easy-access theorycrafting for decks in an environment where doing so would be healthy.

10 hours ago, Eirias said:

This though, allows new players to test and practice whatever they want on sparring. It will encourage playing with friends, and gives them an incentive to play friendlies instead of going straight into the PVP death pit.

What if you were to do what nightrein suggested but a bit differently: If one of the players in the non-ranked pvp game has not been registered for over X amount of time all players in that match have the option between chosing whether to play with their current upgrades or with fully upgraded cards? (This means you could play games where the new player has fully upgraded cards for example while the veteran uses his current deck, which hopefully is fully charged by then, or close to it). This way new members have the chance to test and practice on sparring without the numerical disadvantage, what you guys said, but will eventually have to buy the upgrades themselves, meaning that the market doesn't take as big of a hit. If you were to set X just right, by the time X is over they would hopefully have gained enough BFP from daily quests for example to buy the cards (charges) for the deck they had been playing with all that time. One big downside I think that might happen is that people will just make accounts left and right for this feature, although if you play with a new member (not necessarily your friend), you would have the option to choose between fully upgraded or not, which I guess decreases the likelihood of them making those accounts. What do you guys think ?

 

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1 hour ago, Ladadoos said:

What if you were to do what nightrein suggested but a bit differently: If one of the players in the non-ranked pvp game has not been registered for over X amount of time all players in that match have the option between chosing whether to play with their current upgrades or with fully upgraded cards?

To clarify: I meant that their current deck would be set to level 120, not that they would get some level 120 premade decks. The point of this option isn't just that the new players could play spars on a numerically equal field, but also so that anyone could test their theorycrafted decks assuming they had the cards. I don't think we should use this option to let people use cards they don't already own - that'd draw players to just do sparring until they've played with every card they could ever want, and thus harm the lifespan of their gameplay experience. Or if we only let them use premade 120 decks, it would make for similar/the same match every time, and might put them off bothering with it.

I think that by letting players throw whatever cards into a deck and let them set it to 120 for the sake of a sparring match would make for a healthy testing that would let players see how much they like using a card without wasting a dozen hours farming all 3 upgrades and spending BFP for more charges on it only to find out it wasn't nearly what they'd hoped. Or at the very least, the option to screw around with friends a little more enjoyably :P

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1 minute ago, nightrein said:

To clarify: I meant that their current deck would be set to level 120, not that they would get some level 120 premade decks.

And that's exactly what I meant. Their current deck could be set to lvl 120 if they haven't been registed for over X amount of time, or if anyone else in that match hasn't been registered for over X amount of time.

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Just now, Ladadoos said:

And that's exactly what I meant. Their current deck could be set to lvl 120 if they haven't been registed for over X amount of time, or if anyone else in that match hasn't been registered for over X amount of time.

I see. But, why add the extra time restriction then? It'd only cut people off from doing the theorycraft testing.

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On 2-2-2017 at 6:50 PM, nightrein said:

I see. But, why add the extra time restriction then? It'd only cut people off from doing the theorycraft testing.

Sorry it took so long for me to respond, read it once and then might have forgotten about it :P 

The main reason behind that time restriction is so that 1) the economy would take less of a hit, since PVP players have to buy less cards to some degree and 2) that the feature does indeed offer members to do some theorycrafting testing, but not for too long. I am alll for giving a people a chance to experience with the cards and form different decks with them, but I personally think that if you do that for too long its benefits will start to wear off and I feel like pampering the members too much also isn't a good idea. That all being said though, I have no idea how much % of the PVP players played PVP on sparring actively (maybe never even ranked, not sure) so I can't really tell for sure how big of an impact this would have. 

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I am really wondering why most who took this poll do not want the upgrade system to be changed in any way. I mean, please give some arguments as to why none of the suggested options are any good. My suggestions in particular were made with pve-friendliness and a low/nonexistant impact on the economy in mind (you still would want to buy all charges and don't really get anything for free, except some commons with upgrades in my option 1). Can you please give me some feedback on why you disliked these suggestions in particular? Maybe i missed something that could easyly be fixed in order to improve the suggestion?

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@LagOps I'm guessing the voters agree with what was already said in this thread. They may not want the change because they want Battleforge to work the same way as it did, and had no problems with the system. Or they believe that the upgrade/charge system was a form of game progression, which this game sorely needs, and removing it for PvPers to give them easier access would have a damaging effect on the lifespan of people's accounts - which could very likely be true. And making the starting cards fully upgraded literally removes their worth for the sake of the Auction House.

Or maybe they just wanted to vote, idk. Nobody other than yourself and Archeon has posted a reason for wanting any of the changes listed, despite there being several votes. They (I would hope) probably agree with what you and/or him said.

 

@Ladadoos I see. Yeah, I can see it drawing some people to just spar indefinitely once they have at least 1 copy of each card they want. But if they enjoy PvP enough to do that, I would think they would eventually want to go into ranked - and thus have to go get their upgrades like everyone else. IDK, I just feel like locking it to people who have only played up until a certain amount of time rather defeats the purpose - that time would have to be long enough for them to have gotten the cards they want (which, consider a deck that requires 3 or 4 UR cards. That could be a long time, depending on AH prices for those cards - let alone how much RNG would go into legitimately unboxing each of them) in order to fuss around with it. Either it'd have to be long enough that the restriction doesn't matter, or so short that the theory testing aspect to be worthless.

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Just now, nightrein said:

And making the starting cards fully upgraded literally removes their worth for the sake of the Auction House.

This is will be an issue either way since you could simply make multiple accounts for the sole purpose of selling the starting cards.

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Voted for no change at all.

 

There was GREAT satisfaction in upgrading my first deck to lvl 120 and it didn't feel like a grind to me. I don't want stuff handed over to me for free like in most games today.

Edited by Demiron

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@nightrein@Demiron i don't think i can quite follow you guys... since when did "change the upgrade system" mean "pvp players get everything for free" or "there will be no progression at all" ???

 

@nightrein well i am quite certain that the starting cards will consist of a bunch of comons, so they do not hold any value anyways. in addition to that, it would prevent ppl from multiaccounting to get all the charges for the starting cards. even if there would not just be commons in the starter deck, they would still lose all value due to multiaccounting. I am not sure what the downside to having a playable starter deck is...

@Demiron i totally agree with your sentiment here: progression is important to have! This is why several ways which tried to improve the use of unupgraded cards (charges so low it is often just a wasted slot), were made in such that they would provide a similar progression experience minus the annoying bits of pvp being unplayable and unupgraded cards being near unplayable.

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Okay, I'll give you a proper explanation why I don't think any of these options will lead to a solution of the problem.

1. Starting cards are already upgraded

-> You won't be able to build an entire PvP deck just out of the starting cards (even with a changed starter set). You would have some cards that are superior to others and this would propably result in a spam of the given starting cards which lowers the diversity in PvP at the start of the game. As far as I know we get better rewards for playing PvP, therefore such an idea would minimize the enjoyment of playing PvP right at the start of the game due to no diversity.  

Example:

Just a simple U3 Masterarcherspam will beat Shadow (Pretty sure Dreadcharger won't be a part of the starter set) every game.  

2. Unupgraded card have twice the charges (one extra charge when fully upgraded)

-> I don't like that idea at all. Additional charges will have a massive influence on specific decks and buff them really hard. What makes it even worse is the fact that these strategies are mostly one-dimensional and annoying to play against. 

Examples:

Pure Shadow would benefit heavily from that due to the fact that it relies alot on Shadowmages. A win condition against Shadow is to pressure early and get rid of these mage-charges, because their potential in nearly every gamestage is huge. They are the core unit in defense & also the Shadowmage + Netherwarp green combo can be abused heavily (especially due to the Netherwarp bug, where the healing effect resets itself all the time, when you place the starting- and the endpoint at the same spot. You can get increase the healing power from 20/s up to something like 100s). With additional Mage charges pure Shadow would get an immense buff and the deck is already stronger than most people think. 

Pure Nature would also use this change in the most stupid way. Surge of Light spam is a working strategy in Pure Nature, because of SoM & getting 5 addtional charges would encourage people to play the Deep One + permaheal playstyle which is definitely not the correct way to buff this deck. 

3. Redistribute the charges for cards (more charges when unupgraded, same charges as in the old BF when fully upgraded)  

-> Pretty much the only thing I would like to see. But it's just "nice to have" and not a solution to the problem, that unupgraded decks are not competitive at all. Upgrades have a massive influence on cards and some cards are absolute trash without them. Did anyone try to play Ashebone without upgrades? The guy kills himself pre U2 even in combat due to the low base-lifesteal which is just horrible and comparable stuff applies to so many cards ...

Having more charges to start with would be cool thing for people who want to jump into PvP immediately and I would like to see it implemented just because of that (You just need to do it for S, M & L units, that would be more than enough). But does this fix the new player experience for people who start playing a couple months later? Definitely not.

4. (ONLY in PvP) All cards which are not U2, will be a U1 card and have 1 extra charges 

-> The change is meaningless. You could get an entire deck upgraded to U1 in less than 4 hours. This is not helpful at all

5. (ONLY in PvP) All cards which are not U3, will be a U2 card and have 2 extra charges.

-> I think this change would be sort of good for PvP, but honestly having 2 immediate charges is too much. It would hurt the market, because you just need some core cards fully charged while others are playable with just 2 charges and this will have a big influence on their value at the market. But the real reason why I'm against it is the fact that you still need the fully upgraded deck at one point, but since you got all the U1/U2 upgrades for PvP already grinding will feel less rewarding, the experience would be much worse. 

6. (ONLY in PvP) All cards are U3 with 3 extra charges

-> The admins said they won't remove the upgrade system. This option would be "removing the upgrade & the charge system". I would be sure some PvP only players would like to see that but I can ensure you this won't happen therefore it's pointless to discuss it.

 

Therefore I voted for the "No Changes" option. I don't want to see heavy changes in the upgrade system (it's okay if some stuff gets optimized), I just want to be able to grind for a deck with an adequate reward system. If we (the ones who will play the game from the beginning) will be able to get viable decks in a decent amount of time it will be even better for new players later on since they will be able to get some cards quicker through the market, while we have to rely mostly on boosters at the beginning. 

 

tl dr

A good rewarding system is important for a healthy game and makes most changes to the upgrade system unnecessary

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Let's just see the game up and running on stable servers and then, after a loooong period maybe we can discuss such massive changes to the core game. I'm not so sure the majority would welcome these changes and like RadicalX said some of these could potentially damage the market so bad it's not worth it.

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2 hours ago, LagOps said:

well i am quite certain that the starting cards will consist of a bunch of comons, so they do not hold any value anyways. in addition to that, it would prevent ppl from multiaccounting to get all the charges for the starting cards. even if there would not just be commons in the starter deck, they would still lose all value due to multiaccounting. I am not sure what the downside to having a playable starter deck is...

Here's the problem with that: the admins and mods will be actively watching for multiaccounting, and that's the easiest thing to track. Account got made and instantly sent its cards to another account, never to be seen again? Caught. So "multiaccounting makes them worthless" is just intrinsically wrong. People will still be after the starting cards for charges, despite them being starting cards. And as @RadicalX said, some starter decks will benefit far more from the upgrades than others, which will likely cause a very stagnant low-level PvP experience. Not a good thing by any stretch.

And the overarching issue with handing out PvP-only upgrades is: We need the PvP players to still do PvE. If ANY of the upgrades are given on a 4 or 12 player map (2 player ones, they can most likely find someone to join them easy) then any excuse for the PvP-only players to abstain from playing them makes it that much harder to find a match. A lot (I'd wager most) of players, even PvE-exclusives, will stop playing many of the maps after getting the upgrades they're after in favor of rPvE instead. For a new player to come in several months after release (which is the theoretical timeframe we're working with) and find them unable to fill a queue is a bad thing. For the sake of sustaining the steady playerbase in all game modes, we need to not have U2/U3s auto-applied during PvP, and handing out U1s isn't useful given how easy U1s are to get. It all seems more work than it is worth, especially given we don't know if this will even be a problem yet.

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On 4.2.2017 at 11:03 PM, nightrein said:

Here's the problem with that: the admins and mods will be actively watching for multiaccounting, and that's the easiest thing to track. Account got made and instantly sent its cards to another account, never to be seen again? Caught. So "multiaccounting makes them worthless" is just intrinsically wrong. People will still be after the starting cards for charges, despite them being starting cards. And as @RadicalX said, some starter decks will benefit far more from the upgrades than others, which will likely cause a very stagnant low-level PvP experience. Not a good thing by any stretch.

And the overarching issue with handing out PvP-only upgrades is: We need the PvP players to still do PvE. If ANY of the upgrades are given on a 4 or 12 player map (2 player ones, they can most likely find someone to join them easy) then any excuse for the PvP-only players to abstain from playing them makes it that much harder to find a match. A lot (I'd wager most) of players, even PvE-exclusives, will stop playing many of the maps after getting the upgrades they're after in favor of rPvE instead. For a new player to come in several months after release (which is the theoretical timeframe we're working with) and find them unable to fill a queue is a bad thing. For the sake of sustaining the steady playerbase in all game modes, we need to not have U2/U3s auto-applied during PvP, and handing out U1s isn't useful given how easy U1s are to get. It all seems more work than it is worth, especially given we don't know if this will even be a problem yet.

Well, in the old battleforge the starter cards WERE absolutely worthless because everyone had them. even without multiaccounting they would still be worthless because they were commons. even lord cyrian was worth absolutely nothing and players would grind out the quest to get via multiaccounting. Also, i highly doubt the devs don't have anything better to do than to prevent ppl from cheating themselves 1bfp common cards... It is MUCH better to make multiaccount pointless in the first place than to try banning everyone who tries doing it.

 

About players not playing certain pve maps to grind out upgrades... i'm not sure about you guys but i just went and did rpve9 to grind the upgrade tokens, at least that gives me guaranteed upgrades with hardly any chance of faling the map. I got no idea about most pve maps on expert and i doubt most pvp players would rather learn to beat expert maps with a bunch of randoms instead of grinding rpve. And for anything other than expert, grinding rpve seems be easier as well.

 

You say that we still need pvp players to play pve. Do you realise that pvp queues are often empty as well? Just how many players are quitting pvp because they just won't have a competetive deck unless they grind pve? How would you feel if pve players get somehow bullied into playing pvp as well? Would you be fine doing this? Of course not! But empty pvp queues do not affect you as a pve player, do they?

The issue was that playing pve was mandatory in the old battleforge and not just somehow encouraged (daily missions for pvp and pve would encourage playing both but not force you) and you were required to bring a lvl 80+ deck before you could even consider doing proper pvp without being bullied because of low charges. While i agree that the "free upgrades/charges" solutions are detrimental to the progression in the game, i can still see why pvp players would want to be able to play proper pvp without having to grind themselves a decent deck AGAIN!

 

You are saying that we do not know if this will be a problem? Please tell me what i can do if i am in pvp and the enemy can just erupt my counters until i can't spawn any usefull counters anymore. How is that NOT a problem? This is obviously a bullshit way to lose and downright unplayable.

 

I would also like to ask you about the options you did not discuss: redistribute the amount of charges a card gets per level (ex. 8+4+4+4 instead of 5+5+5+5) or giving the card more base charges in general (base charge cards were useless in pvp AND pve!) (ex. 10+5+5+5 instead of 5+5+5+5). Please do tell me why such a change would be detrimental to the game in geneal.

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@RadicalX It is true that extra charges on certain cards do create issues in pvp. I espeically see the issue with magespamm/forsakenspamm for instance. However, that could also be fixed by modifying the amount of charges that card has in general: for instance if 25xforsaken (10+5+5+5) is just ways too much, we could go for (8+4+4+4=20) charges instead without affecting the U3 meta much/at all while other cards such as skyfire drake could really use 4+2+2+2=10 charges. The worst issues could be dealt with like this and i agree that this is not the optimal solution, but it would likely be far simpler than to implement a total rebalance to the charge distribution for all cards (this is why i listed it as an option in case the charge redistribution was not viable).

I also agree that on some cards upgrades really do matter much more than on others and this is still an issue. If it would be possible, there might be adjustments to the upgrade curve for the worst offenders as well.

 

Overall i agree with the rest of your opinions, the attempts on resolving the poor low level pvp experience at best lower the bar for viablility but don't overcome the actual issue (at least not without causing new issues). I have put much thought into this but couldn't really see a better approach. Maybe you have a suggestion we could try to build on?

 

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17 hours ago, LagOps said:

However, that could also be fixed by modifying the amount of charges that card has in general: for instance if 25xforsaken (10+5+5+5) is just ways too much, we could go for (8+4+4+4=20) charges instead without affecting the U3 meta much/at all while other cards such as skyfire drake could really use 4+2+2+2=10 charges. The worst issues could be dealt with like this and i agree that this is not the optimal solution, but it would likely be far simpler than to implement a total rebalance to the charge distribution for all cards (this is why i listed it as an option in case the charge redistribution was not viable).

Yeah, I agree with that. This would work easily for the cards without changing their value on the market. You would still need additional charges at some point, but playing PvP in the early stage would be a little bit more enjoyable. 

24 charges -> 9+5+5+5

20 charges -> 8+4+4+4

16 charges -> 7+3+3+3

12 charges -> 6+2+2+2

8 charges -> 3+2+2+1 (I think something like 5+1+1+1 would be too much, because you wouldn't need the charges in some cases which hurts the market -> mountaineer would be a prime example)

4 charges -> 1+1+1+1 (unchanged, because it's not possible to change it without making at least one of the extra cards entirely useless)

Seeing something comparable to this would be pleasant for PvP players. I still think though the most important aspect will revolve around the grinding system. Getting decent rewards, so we can overcome this state of "playing without upgrades & charges" as fast as possible without destroying the PvE experience. And if the system is working for the players who start playing the game from the start right away it will be even easier to obtain viable PvP decks for newer players who start playing a couple months later. 

17 hours ago, LagOps said:

I have put much thought into this but couldn't really see a better approach. Maybe you have a suggestion we could try to build on?

I spent some time thinking about this topic either, but I honestly didn't find a good solution so far. Most stuff always includes risks (bad influence on the market/PvE). A small thing, that came to my mind to sort of raise the experience for new players is to give people who join the game a couple months later some extra starting gold (as long as the devs continue with their plan to use gold as an untradable resource to upgrade cards), so they can upgrade at least some cards from the start and aren't at such a massive disadvantage compared to the ones who grinded over months. This can't be abused by multiaccounting, is helpful to newer players and as long as the amount of gold isn't too big it's not unfair towards other players who played the game for months, because their upgrade advantage over new players will still be tremendous. But that's just some small stuff that increases the game experience by a small amount, nothing that would fix the actual problem. 

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