Wish to contribute to the project by donating? Heads up to our Patreon -> https://www.patreon.com/skylordsreborn

Jump to content
BEWARE: Multiaccounting May Cause Permabans! Read more... ×

Recommended Posts

~tun tu-tutun-tu-tu-tu-tu-tu-tun-turu-tu-tu-tu-tuuuuuun~

20th_Century_Fox_Logo_2009_2013.jpg

 - Anyways, So. Basically I was thinking about people making maps balanced and suitable enough to be added to the ranked rotation. The difference would be that these maps would be big enough, or designed for high tier play.

 - The one thing that PvP is missing is a way for people to fight eachother at T4, getting to T4 on normal maps is sometimes practically impossible, and on the occasion that it's doable it makes no sense to do so because getting T4 costs 300 power + the time it takes for it to build + the time it takes to save up 300 power which you can't really get back (all of this explained in @Eirias 's How to Build a (PvP) Deck Guide.

Quote

T4 requires 300 power, and a waiting period. Do you have any idea how fast I can murder someone with 300 power laying around in t3? Your monument that’s about to get built won’t stand a chance if we’re even, and if you’re winning so much that you can safely go t4, why don’t you just finish the game already? Even worse, that 300 power is not eco-friendly. It’s bound, which means it doesn’t get recycled. If it drops that’s a huge chunk of power gone, although it’s still permanently gone even if it doesn’t drop. Additionally, many maps don’t have enough orbs to allow you to t4 safely. Spending 300 power just invites such a massive counterattack that you have no hope of defending it—even if you bring Amii Ritual. And somehow have the power to play it. In fact, you’ll probably lose merely because you’re holding on to 300 power in your pool. Imagine you are building up power for t4 and I cast 2 soulshatters, or a sandstorm, or I just summon a Grigori and nasty it. If that doesn’t kill you (which it totally will, but maybe I was being dumb), I will still get more power than you. That sudden loss of 300 power will bring back somewhere between 100 and 200 by the time your monument gets up. Even then, I’ll be getting power faster than you because my void will have 300 power more than yours.

 

- I think that having maps designed to accommodate T4 play is the best way to enable it, could be maps that are just overall bigger, maps that have you start with 2 orbs at your spawn, combine those 2, find some other, more creative way but the idea is still there.

- The ARAM map that people have been talking about would be a 3v3 map which would enable one teammate to get T4 at the cost of reducing the other 2 teammates's overall tiers (or everyone could go T3 or something like that).

  That map wouldn't fit into ranked because it's 3v3 not 2v2/1v1 but making a 2v2 version of it with some tweaks could work for the purposes of this post.

- The problem(s) that I see with adding maps that support T4 to the ranked queue is that :

  1. It would put players with T1-3 decks vs people with T4 deck vs eachother
  2. It would sometimes make 2 players with regular decks to fight on T4 maps
  3. It would make players with T4 decks sometimes play in regular maps
  4. Any other combination you can make with the 3 things above ^

- An easy way of getting around that issue would be to make a list with all the pvp maps available when queuing and letting players select if they want to queue up for regular maps or for T4 maps (or both maybe who knows I mean if you wanna fight someone with T4 with a regular meta deck be my guest I'm not gonna stop you) ~~> This would be similar to how CS:GO does things when playing competitive, where you can choose which maps you want to play on and only those will show up

 Or an alternative way would be to just have 2 buttons, for example one with queue for regular maps, one with queue for T4 maps

- I'm not sure whether or not a separate ELO would be required for regular and T4 or if it would be fine to just have one ELO for everything.

- Not sure how T4 cards are balanced for PvP (which they are probably not because they're not designed for it I suppose) which could lead to cards needing to be balanced for PvP

- Tell me what you guys think about this, if you have ideas on how to make it work feel free to post them, if you have any map ideas that could be used link them here and stuff like that.. mmm~yeah

~Th-th-tha-tha-tha-that's all folks!~

thatsallfolks.jpg

Edited by DyonisX
Forgot to add guide link

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ugh, i don't like this movie. With the current meta, it would end in silverwind lancers running everywhere to use cursewell to drain out your powerflow. There's no T4 tactic that counters that on an almost even powerlevel. It would give the players that play frostsplashes an even bigger edge than they already have in the lategame. If we find a way to ban cursewell, though... :blight:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have much PVP experience, but I feel like playing T4 matches competetively (ranked) won't really work out that well since in my opinion you require less micro skills, it's overall more chaotic and I feel like advantages can be gained really quickly. That being said though, this kinda depends on how quickly you make the players be able to go T4. Do you want it increased just a bit or do you want to have T4 be almost the main focus in those maps ? All that being said however, I wouldn't mind some T4 friendly maps for non-ranked matches :queekqueek:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With that idea, T4 would basicly be forced upon people, the game would just become slow and boring, the opposite of what PvP currently is. The map would also either need walls that you can´t fly over (like in Sunbridge) or the map would need to be VERY LONG which would make for boring matches.

As an idea for unranked with friends? Ok, As an idea for anything with a queue? I´d rather not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Shotty said:

With that idea, T4 would basicly be forced upon people

I think that's not even what would happen. There are certain T3 tactics that just become superstrong on extra large maps. For example sending a fast 70 power silverwind lancer to a far away well and destroy it with one click for 150 power with cursewell. Doing this times two or three is much stronger than spending power on T4 and then wait for another 200-300 power for a strong T4 unit.

Also, like you and ladadoos said - action, micro and excitment would decrease as deckchoice and (defensive) strategy would become more important.

Edit: Did i mention that frost T1 would basically be screwed on all those maps like they are already on Uro ?

Edited by SunWu II.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SunWu II. said:

Ugh, i don't like this movie. With the current meta, it would end in silverwind lancers running everywhere to use cursewell to drain out your powerflow. There's no T4 tactic that counters that on an almost even powerlevel. It would give the players that play frostsplashes an even bigger edge than they already have in the lategame. If we find a way to ban cursewell, though... :blight:

Yeah, this basically. There's really no way to balance maps so that t4 can exist in a PvP setting, unless you put like some kind of wall with 1 million health that stopped the players from interacting until they broke it. Or perhaps you could put a massive distance between players, but it would have to be MASSIVE and it would basically be boring. Making power wells and orbs have 10x to 100x the hp might work also (although this makes curse well a ridiculously powerful strategy). The only way t4 would be viable is if something prevented players from interacting before then, which would make tiers 1 and 2 basically useless. Even as it is, I'd say the majority of games (without frost splash mirrors) end in t2, and trying to go t3 is a recipe for disaster if you don't have a proper defense lined up. And in t3 so many cards are incredibly powerful that balancing is pretty difficult, and largely ignored. What does it matter if one unit is twice as good at dropping wells as another unit? 10 seconds vs 20 seconds is not (necessarily) huge.

 

But you really have to ask yourself, why would you WANT t4 to be in the metagame? If t3 is ridiculous and barely balanced, how much worse is t4? I think a game with both players using t4 units would just get silly, because you would both destroy all of the other player's territory and then it would come down to which t4 unit won the final fight when you both only have 2 units left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30.8.2016 at 6:38 AM, Eirias said:

But you really have to ask yourself, why would you WANT t4 to be in the metagame? If t3 is ridiculous and barely balanced, how much worse is t4? I think a game with both players using t4 units would just get silly, because you would both destroy all of the other player's territory and then it would come down to which t4 unit won the final fight when you both only have 2 units left.

I really don't see how T4 would be any different to T3, there would probably be no difference at all. I find T4 being accessable in pvp is a great idea, and the ones who don't want to play it just don't do it, where's the problem? You can just rebuild territory or just don't let your enemy destroy it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Valaraukar said:

I really don't see how T4 would be any different to T3, there would probably be no difference at all. I find T4 being accessable in pvp is a great idea, and the ones who don't want to play it just don't do it, where's the problem? You can just rebuild territory or just don't let your enemy destroy it.

I think Eirias ment that T4 is even more unbalanced than T3.

T3 is already unbalanced (with T3 frost/shadow), but T4 is pvp will even be more unbalanced. This will basically mean that T1 and T2 will be rushed/skipped, and in T3/T4 one tactic will be really OP, so you can basically only win if you use those cards, which gets boring really fast.

And than there is the inability to defend, because most T4 units will drop wells/monuments faster than you can defeat them, so it will just be a 'who can destroy the other faster' instead of tactical gameplay, in my opinion.

Edited by SilenceKiller99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SilenceKiller99 said:

I think Eirias ment that T4 is even more unbalanced than T3.

T3 is already unbalanced (with T3 frost/shadow), but T4 is pvp will even be more unbalanced. This will basically mean that T1 and T2 will be rushed/skipped, and in T3/T4 one tactic will be really OP, so you can basically only win if you use those cards, which gets boring really fast.

Like what for example?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I have never looked into T4 PvP, but I can give you the example of silverwind lancers, tremor, timeless one, ashebone (with shadow) and stonewarior (with nature). And maybe more because I am no PvP expert...

But things like that are even more 'common' in T4, I guess things like batariel (multi hit thing), construct (to two-shot wells), grove spirit (for paralyze and heal, only 70 power), abomonation (really cheap for 5,5k damage and health), tortugun (if you can micro it well, 8,4k damage for 240 power.... ... ..... ........), lost spirit ship (idk, because it was good in pve?). are gonna be used alot.

Also, because in T4 almost all units will be XL, you need a really good Xl counter... so not-XL-counters, like forestelder, giant wyrm, overlord, nightshadeplant, grinder, lost dragon and skycatcher, are probably gonna be useless... 

Please note that this is all my thinking, and I am definitely not an expert xD

Edited by SilenceKiller99

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SilenceKiller99 said:

Well, I have never looked into T4 PvP, but I can give you the example of silverwind lancers, tremor, timeless one, ashebone (with shadow) and stonewarior (with nature). And maybe more because I am no PvP expert...

But things like that are even more 'common' in T4, I guess things like batariel (multi hit thing), construct (to two-shot wells), grove spirit (for paralyze and heal, only 70 power), abomonation (really cheap for 5,5k damage and health), tortugun (if you can micro it well, 8,4k damage for 240 power.... ... ..... ........), lost spirit ship (idk, because it was good in pve?). are gonna be used alot.

Also, because in T4 almost all units will be XL, you need a really good Xl counter... so not-XL-counters, like forestelder, giant wyrm, overlord, nightshadeplant, grinder, lost dragon and skycatcher, are probably gonna be useless... 

Please note that this is all my thinking, and I am definitely not an expert xD

Construct is too slow of an unit, I don't think it would be used. 

Bandits would actually be better in this mode at least. Bloodhorn would be a great pick. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, that is something that I meant. If you attack someone's well cluster with a Bloodhorn charge, the defender really can't do anything about it. Maybe an instant crowedcontrol spell like Oink could defend it for a short time, but after that the bloodhorn is still gonna charge and you still can't defend it.

It's like Juggernauts, but then a lot more, because power amounts in T4 will be a lot more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Valaraukar said:

Like what for example?

Basically what @SilenceKiller99 said.

Earthshaker is a prime example. Basically everything in t4 is so incredibly powerful that whoever starts the attack first wins. Even in t3, that's mostly the case. Decision-making becomes useless because there is only one decision--attack. I mean, imagine a pure fire mirror. It's literally just whoever can get a t3 up (and keep it alive) first--then jugger seals the game. T4 would be like that, but soooo much worse.

But again, I really don't see any way to balance the game such that all 4 tiers are useful. Either you build a wall or make all monuments and wells have 10x health, in which case t1-t3 are not needed, so you just well up with a single t1 unit and bring 19  t4 cards, or you add a ton of space and then t4 is still not useful, because silverwind lancer and curse well dominates the meta.

2 minutes ago, SilenceKiller99 said:

yeah, that is something that I meant. If you attack someone's well cluster with a Bloodhorn charge, the defender really can't do anything about it. Maybe an instant crowedcontrol spell like Oink could defend it for a short time, but after that the bloodhorn is still gonna charge and you still can't defend it.

It's like Juggernauts, but then a lot more, because power amounts in T4 will be a lot more.

Even bloodhorn is pretty weak in t4. You basically need swift units (aka flying) or spells of infinite destruction (like earthshaker).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Basically what @SilenceKiller99 said.

Earthshaker is a prime example. Basically everything in t4 is so incredibly powerful that whoever starts the attack first wins. Even in t3, that's mostly the case. Decision-making becomes useless because there is only one decision--attack. I mean, imagine a pure fire mirror. It's literally just whoever can get a t3 up (and keep it alive) first--then jugger seals the game. T4 would be like that, but soooo much worse.

But again, I really don't see any way to balance the game such that all 4 tiers are useful. Either you build a wall or make all monuments and wells have 10x health, in which case t1-t3 are not needed, so you just well up with a single t1 unit and bring 19  t4 cards, or you add a ton of space and then t4 is still not useful, because silverwind lancer and curse well dominates the meta.

Even bloodhorn is pretty weak in t4. You basically need swift units (aka flying) or spells of infinite destruction (like earthshaker).

You could try using a frost structure deck 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my take on this.

Regarding an ARAM mode, sure, it sounds fun and could be a nice way to experience T4 in PvP scenarios. As for 1v1's /  2v2's ... Here is my problem with T4 in regular ranked play : T4 was never balanced towards PvP.

The original devs never intended T4 to be viable in PvP apart from some really niche cheese plays in 2v2's (enlightenment into fire dragon/earthquake im looking at you) which makes T4 completely unbalanced. Some of my 1v1 decks had no T3 at all to give you an idea, let alone T4. While i could see fun games with T4 gameplay, it just wouldn't be viable for ranked play (imho). But an unranked game mode featuring bigger maps could be an idea, just to see if it's possible from a development point of view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dexirian said:

But an unranked game mode featuring bigger maps could be an idea [...]

Players who want to have T4 fights can simply start a 1vs1 sparring match on a 3vs3 map. For example Gorgash 3vs3 was a really huge map and each player could sart in a corner.

Edited by SunWu II.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Btw, there used to be a custom 3vs3 map (maze of survivors) where you first had to battle the ai to gain wells and orbs and only in the middle of the map (which you only could reach if you defeated the ai) both teams would meet. This resulted in a big t4 fight.

I played this map several times and although it was a quite fun experience, the end fight was really chaotic and unbalanced. Therefor I don't see this working in ranked. But I would really recommend to try the custom map in the future.

Maze of Survivors:maze_of_survivors.thumb.jpg.34c10abd2db3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh, @MephistoRoss's suggestion is really good. That could be like a genre of maps, if you really want t4 stuff.

Another way you could do this (idk how much you can adjust stuff in custom maps) but you could do a custom map with immediate t4 by having 4 monuments at the start and something like 1000 power to start with. Then you could add some sort of barrier switch (idk if these exist, but for instance in PvE there are those fire things that make the map impassible unless you destroy them). You could have a couple different switches in different parts of the map (perhaps some switches hidden behind walls of others, so you have to hit them in a specific order?). The idea is this way your t4 fights for territory, instead of just rushing to base trade over and over and over. To prevent flying units from passing, maybe add some kind of enemy towers that do something insane like 20k damage per hit, only to air units?

Just some ideas, but I don't know what you can/can't do in the map maker.

 

And just to be clear, I don't think something like this should ever be implemented in ranked whatsoever, because t4 is just not balanced. It's not that PvP isn't balanced to handle t4, it's that t4 is not balanced to handle PvP. I can imagine scenarios where it's possible to balance games that consistently reach higher than t3, but the t4 cards themselves are just broken :) (and you'd need more deck slots).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Eirias said:

and you'd need more deck slots

I think this is one of the most important points PVErs or PvP beginners underestimate when they theorize about T4 maps in ranked(!) PvP. Let's say there was a dedicated T4 map popping up in ranked from time to time and it really gives you an advantage if you carry T4 now. Would you really build your deck in a way that caters to this map above all others? That would mean having a serious disadvantage on Haladur, Layesh, Uro, Wazhai etc. Only one out of ~20 times it would be your time to shine. If you reach your T4 and not get cursewelled/juggered to death before that is...when it comes to deckslots there are decks that couldn't afford a T4 at all, too (like stonekin or twilight).

53 minutes ago, Eirias said:

It's not that PvP isn't balanced to handle t4, it's that t4 is not balanced to handle PvP

:blight: wat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, SunWu II. said:

I think this is one of the most important points PVErs or PvP beginners underestimate when they theorize about T4 maps in ranked(!) PvP. Let's say there was a dedicated T4 map popping up in ranked from time to time and it really gives you an advantage if you carry T4 now. Would you really build your deck in a way that caters to this map above all others? That would mean having a serious disadvantage on Haladur, Layesh, Uro, Wazhai etc. Only one out of ~20 times it would be your time to shine. If you reach your T4 and not get cursewelled/juggered to death before that is...when it comes to deckslots there are decks that couldn't afford a T4 at all, too (like stonekin or twilight).

:blight: wat

I mean that t4 cards are broken in PvP. Because they are balanced to deal with bosses that have like 100K health, as opposed to wells and orbs with 2K health. And then you have cards like frenetic assault which can decimate another t4 army, or earthshaker which can destroy a base instantly, or worldbreaker gun which can destroy a base from super far away.

 

I'm just saying I could keep the PvP rules the same and change all the t4 cards so they work in PvP. But I could NOT change the PvP rules and keep the t4 cards :). (Although the best solution would be to have some sort of structure HP scaling, along with changing some t4 cards so they aren't broken. For instance, your wells and monuments could gain HP depending on how long they are up/2 mins after you gain a monument. This way they are possible to kill at all tiers but don't get 1-shotted at t3, not to mention t4.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Eirias said:

I'm just saying I could keep the PvP rules the same and change all the t4 cards so they work in PvP. But I could NOT change the PvP rules and keep the t4 cards :).

Aaaahh, now i get it :jorne:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.