Daily Card Discussion

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

I am no expert on pure Nature, but like Lagops I always got the impression that Energy Parasite was more used to abuse its mind control ability, rather than being used as an m-counter. Which is a shame since it could somewhat mitigate nature's lack of ranged anti-M with better stats. However, since its mind control already is so strong, buffing its stats would only make it over the top good.

I wonder, if the unit lost its mind control power and its health increased to 500 could it be used as a viable ranged anti-m and potentially solve natures ranged anti-m issue?

In any case, it would be good if units that where taken over would still bind power but implementing that would probably be a technical issue. So, limiting it to 2 units per charge sounds reasonable if we can't have the bound power thing.

 

But from the perspective of a pure nature player, it is pretty much a must have, since... well, what do you have else besides Deep One?
 

[LagOps]

pure nature really needs a reliable m/m counter and i STILL think we should simply take treespirit and rework it into a t2 card! it would solve the m/m counter issue and would help out root decks which are a bit underplayed. i would buff mainly the damage in its mele form so it can get rid of burrowers or at least push them off the well, the rooted form should not be overly buffed as the root network amplification really gets out of control quickly. and most impostantly we can finally play a t1 without having to deal with this broken turtle card and minimal t1 builds. it just saves far too many slots when compared to a conventional t1 and prevents almost all offensive plays vs. nature.

parasite swarm can't really help out vs. burrowers at all due to hurricane, but making it steadyfast would definately remove too much counterplay to it (erupt, nasty, hurricane, frostmage...). ps is allready surprisingly good against m units, especially pure fire hardly stands a chance.

[Loptous]

Can't talk much today, a lot going on so here is an easy one

[SilenceKiller99]

A lot of health, low power cost, decent attack for a frost T1 card... actually never liked frost so much, but could it be compared to thugs (except no looting ability, but is 10 power cheaper instead)?

On the other hand, maybe not so useful because frost already has master archers as S/S and frostmage as medium S counter

Edited January 23, 2016 by SilenceKiller99

[LagOps]

now thats your typical design failure. it has no place in the faction, but is otherwise fine. why would you play a slow mele s/s unit if you have 2 very hard s counters in t1?

[Kaliber84]

Picking up on @LagOps criticism. Changing them to M counters and adding a passive ability that always lets them spawn undazed (but nerfing the overall stats) would make them very interesting.
They would be M counters that are the complete opposite of Ice Guardians (who are best when defending). I think they could then be balanced to make them a viable alternative but not OP.

[SilenceKiller99]

20 minutes ago, Kaliber84 said:

Changing them to M counters and adding a passive ability that always lets them spawn undazed (but nerfing the overall stats) would make them very interesting.

This would make every card interesting xD but I get the point, northguards have no real value to a good pvp frost deck

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

8 hours ago, LagOps said:

pure nature really needs a reliable m/m counter and i STILL think we should simply take treespirit and rework it into a t2 card! it would solve the m/m counter issue and would help out root decks which are a bit underplayed. i would buff mainly the damage in its mele form so it can get rid of burrowers or at least push them off the well, the rooted form should not be overly buffed as the root network amplification really gets out of control quickly. and most impostantly we can finally play a t1 without having to deal with this broken turtle card and minimal t1 builds. it just saves far too many slots when compared to a conventional t1 and prevents almost all offensive plays vs. nature.

parasite swarm can't really help out vs. burrowers at all due to hurricane, but making it steadyfast would definately remove too much counterplay to it (erupt, nasty, hurricane, frostmage...). ps is allready surprisingly good against m units, especially pure fire hardly stands a chance.

Yeah, I was actually thinking the same about Treespirit ^^

 

7 hours ago, Loptous said:

Can't talk much today, a lot going on so here is an easy one

Most has been said about the card already, I guess it is just the "mandatory" S/S creature, only this time it's Frost.

I like the fact that this unit does not have a special ability, as that makes it unique on its own and it does feature the best stats among all T1 creatures if you consider its stats (exclusing Windweavers). Sadly, even making it M/S wouldn't be that great since Imperials should actually be resposible for this job?

I would just let it be. I've seen people that like using them. In fact, I think it would be a nice and valid card if Frost had access to ranged anti-M. Maybe not for pvp, but it would at least allow people in (r)pve to have some diversity (not saying a ranged anti-m is needed. On the contrary, I think it would be harmful for T1 balance if that had been that case lol).
 

[LagOps]

i doubt reworking it into an m counter would be such a good idea. they may be better in open combat than ice guardians, but that might just create more issues as it would take away a major weakness of the faction. on the other hand the card would most likely still not be played unless it gets buffed a whole lot, just because it is a slow s mele unit and ice guardians are really good units. it will be really hard to find a balance here. they either are not worth the slot or have stupidly high stats and are only played because they are broken. i honestly would just leave them as they are for now, they are not bad units. i don't play pve a lot, but they might be usefull in some cases as they are cheap and really tanky for a t1 unit.

[Chimaka( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

3 hours ago, LagOps said:

i doubt reworking it into an m counter would be such a good idea. they may be better in open combat than ice guardians, but that might just create more issues as it would take away a major weakness of the faction. on the other hand the card would most likely still not be played unless it gets buffed a whole lot, just because it is a slow s mele unit and ice guardians are really good units. it will be really hard to find a balance here. they either are not worth the slot or have stupidly high stats and are only played because they are broken. i honestly would just leave them as they are for now, they are not bad units. i don't play pve a lot, but they might be usefull in some cases as they are cheap and really tanky for a t1 unit.

Maybe this Card can get ability Steadfast with upgreades and change S/S to M/S, but there are olready Imperials for 70 En. with M/S (without Steadfast ability) and Ice Guardian for even 50(!) En. - M/M.

I mean, they have ability - Brave Defenders...but you know...this ability so powerfull  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) .

[Treim]

Guess it was stated enough that this card get outclassed by other cards pretty heavily.

I thought about making this one a peeling card that applies a movement speed debuff on enemy units when attacking. Even though its kinda good to stick on enemy units and makes it pretty hard to kite them. I am not exactly sure if that would make it worth to play though as i never was really into frost t1 besides classic FM & Master Archers.

[Hirooo]

On 1/20/2016 at 9:02 PM, Mental Omega said:

And for melee units it is just the same.

Actually I think you are incorrect here.

The meeleattackanimations in general seem to be frontloaded with most of the attack before the actuall attack into next attackanimation.

Think about how the sunderer takes a swing or the dreadcharger goes up in his horse before attacking.

I am not sure how much windup animation there is for the wagon.

[Kaliber84]

Maybe it could be made viable by a single change to the move speed. I don't suggest making it as fast as a swift unit, but just slightly above average units. It would be an option as a starter unit then and more useful in fights.

[Loptous]

It has been some time since we've talked about a Twilight Card, so here's one.

So from a standpoint in PVP, this would be used mainly on Harvesters but I think the purple one would be a little better to use on the Harvester.

The upgrades for this card make it a little more usable, the only problem I see with this card is the orb cost. During that stage of the game, T3 creatures would most likely be played Dark Cultist, Deepcoil, etc. The problem I see with this card is that it can only affect T2 units in a post T2 situation, if you make it that far.

Of course it can remove pesky fire dancers and such but after that, what is the use? I also believe, Dryad could be a counter for this card in terms of removing debuffs?

Anyways, on the splash art for the card, is that Rogan Kayle or some other random dude? Because, I always thought it looks a lot like Rogan Kayle...

[SilenceKiller99]

24 minutes ago, Loptous said:

Anyways, on the splash art for the card, is that Rogan Kayle or some other random dude? Because, I always thought it looks a lot like Rogan Kayle...

I think it's a Northguard actually. If you look at the Northguard card you can also see the big shoulder defenders.

I don't think this card is good in PvP, but I noticed that almost all twilight cards suck in PvP (maybe vileblood or deathglider are kinda okey). I saw the card Twilight Warfare, which took my attention, but this one isn't that good in my opinion.

Edited January 25, 2016 by SilenceKiller99

[Kaliber84]

Allcards got a wrong cover for the card. It is not a T3 card but T2. I checked that ingame.

Additional info for the card: It transforms any card up to T2 into a Twilight Bug (1000M/900M) which makes it a little bit superior to a Nightcrawler (815M/745M). The power cost is reduced to 110->100 at U2. U1 reduces cooldown to 30s->20s and U3 to 20s->15s.

IMO if used on a friendly unit the Twilight Bug (red) is inferior to Scythe Fiend after the buff wears off (100 power + unit cost for the spell) as it will only deal slightly more dmg vs M units (1500 compared to 1400 by U3 SF) and lacks the S counter. In theory one could save a unit (the Twilight Bug spawns with full life) but that just makes it an inferior heal. The red Twilight Curse definitely needs to be buffed in some way.

The purple Twilight Curse might be a little underpowered but it can be useful at T2 I guess.

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

9 minutes ago, Kaliber84 said:

Allcards got a wrong cover for the card. It is not a T3 card but T2. I checked that ingame.

Additional info for the card: It transforms any card up to T2 into a Twilight Bug (1000M/900M) which makes it a little bit superior to a Nightcrawler (815M/745M). The power cost is reduced to 110->100 at U2. U1 reduces cooldown to 30s->20s and U3 to 20s->15s.

IMO if used on a friendly unit the Twilight Bug (red) is inferior to Scythe Fiend after the buff wears off (100 power + unit cost for the spell) as it will only deal slightly more dmg vs M units (1500 compared to 1400 by U3 SF) and lacks the S counter. In theory one could save a unit (the Twilight Bug spawns with full life) but that just makes it an inferior heal. The red Twilight Curse definitely needs to be buffed in some way.

The purple Twilight Curse might be a little underpowered but it can be useful at T2 I guess.

Could you test if you can use it on Harvester? The card does not state that it cannot, but I imagine that would be a brutal hard counter.

In either case I think the purple affinity is the more interesting one (as I can't imagine of a scenario where it is worth using), but it just costs too much and a normal CC has a much greater AoE.
 

[pajasin]

Hi guys, if i remember it rigth use of this card was limited by T2 unit and max summon cost 150 (you need T2 to cast it)
I remind i played in low elo so i used this card quit often for examle on some buffed Commandos or Reavers or on a card with ability i rly do not like .Example Agressor or Stone tempest
I used purple affinity because it worked for me like disenchant .

pros : works like Disenchant
         works like Mauler

        almost no one expect

minuses: powercost (you have to use it wisely)

             orb demands

           card slot

I would be like ,if nobody underestimate this card.

Edited January 25, 2016 by pajasin
unfinished sentence

[Kaliber84]

2 hours ago, Mental Omega said:

Could you test if you can use it on Harvester? The card does not state that it cannot, but I imagine that would be a brutal hard counter.

In either case I think the purple affinity is the more interesting one (as I can't imagine of a scenario where it is worth using), but it just costs too much and a normal CC has a much greater AoE.
 

Tested and it doesn't work. Power cost is too high. I think it's ridiculous as Harvester is the only T2 card that costs more than 150 power (Mounty can be cursed) but I guess it could shut down pure shadow pretty hard in some cases.

[Loptous]

@LadadoosWell today, the card may look different because, when I accessed the google drive that contained all the cards, nothing was there so I am going off the Wiki for cards. Fix pls. Here's the link

Back to the discussion, I don't know how to feel for this card just despite of it's awkwardness. It looks ok on paper?

Have no idea how this card would work in any situation, but I believe it could work it someone was to be really desperate.  

So the red affinity: Every friendly ground unit within a 20m radius will be frozen to the ground. They will then be immobile but may still attack and use special abilities. Affected targets take 20% less damage, cannot be knocked and deal 250 damage to attacker when being trampled. Last for 10 seconds. Reusable every 20 seconds.

The blue affinity: Every friendly ground unit within a 20m radius will be frozen to the ground. They will then be immobile but may still attack and use special abilities. Affected targets take 30% less damage and cannot be knocked. Last for 10 seconds. Reusable every 20 seconds.

With this being said, the Red affinity is much more better than the blue one because of the damaging trampling units thingy. Of course I believe this card is made to be a defense mechanism, to protect orbs, power wells, etc. 

I am not sure about you guys, but I always hated this splash art, it is just disgusting to me.

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Loptous

[SilenceKiller99]

Looks kinda strange for just a fight, as the enemy can flee and come back when its over... But could be really strong if you are focussing a well/orb.

With U3 upgrade it has 40% damage reduction and 15 sec duration in total, so its sort of strong and definitely worth the 60 power if you use it on a few good siege units (like a group of burrowers or tremors or something). Might not be worth the deck slot though.

[Kaliber84]

I think it isn't useful for defending at all. I mean come on, you can't move anymore and in a free fight it's the same.

So as SilenceKill99 said it would only be really good to focus a well/orb. The damage reduction allows the units to focus the well longer and helps vs Eruption, Nasty or the like. If the card also included flying units it would probably really good (maybe even OP). The card is better for melee units (who don't need to move once at a well) I think but still good with ranged units.
What I really like is that the card is useful at any tier. When I look at it I wonder why Grigori players don't use it in their decks.

IMO the blue one looks better. The dmg vs trampling on the red one is nice (especially in T1) but there aren't many units doing that in T1 (Only Dreadcharger & Sunderer afaik). In T2 one tends to use more units that are M+ and they won't get trampled (except for Harvy?). So the blue one is a Shadow counter for Frost T1 and slightly better vs Fire but that's it.
The additional dmg reduction from the blue one will be useful regardless of being tier and might be even better at T1 depending on the match.

I think the red one is inferior to the blue one atm and needs to be buffed or reworked. A possibility would be to change it so it applies to enemies and lengthen the duration. That would make it the Frost equivalent of Ensnaring Roots that is a better CC but not as good for killing the target (and more expensive).

[SilenceKiller99]

I was just thinking this: if you are attacking a well with some units, and you use this against a fire player... you will probably get rekt by a wildfire, as they do insane damage if you don't micro out of them

[SunWu]

In T1 it's worthless against players that approach you before you reach their base. Every good player would try to intercept an army of masterarchers as soon as possiple, if you use it then, on the open field, you waste time and power. Maybe it's good against phase tower spam, but even then it's a sad choice, i would rather take ice shield towers wich can help you more in T2.
 In T2 wintertide get's countered by every deck with cc. Also if you're pure frost your main attack force are wareagles who don't profit. If you're shadow/frost you don't build on keeping your units alive and stonekin can rather make a burrower more than using it, there's enough support anyway (also: slotproblems).

In T3 there's ward of the north wich does the same, but better, because your units can still move. And considerung you can take down a well for 150 power there's really no need for such support cards in T3 in my opinion. Maybe you can profit from cards like this in a 30 minute pure frost vs stonekin game, but those are the matchups i try to avoid under any circumstances, anyway.

[Kaliber84]

Just did some testing.

1. The dmg vs trampling of the red affinity might not be needed that often, but it absolutely DESTROYS any mounted unit. For example Lyrish U3 is dead before making it through a squad.
2. Dmg reduction applies multiplically (see below)

Testing with Mountain Rowdy (U0, 860HP) for damage reduction. I let a Mounty (U0) attack 3 times and then looked at the damage taken.

• No dmg reduction: 860 - 350 = 510 dmg taken
• Only Wintertide (U3): 860 - 554 = 306 dmg taken
  • => 306/510 * 100 = 60% of the dmg without reduction
• Wintertide and Ability: 860 - 753 = 107 dmg taken
  • => 107/306 * 100 = 35% of the dmg with only Wintertide
  • => 107/510 * 100 = 21% of the dmg without reduction

So now we know that the dmg reduction is applied multiplically. This could lead to good combos with other dmg reducing abilities (e.g. Dryad, Defenders, Icefang Raptor) but I think Wintertide also has good synergy with cards that deal good dmg over time vs buildings but are vulnerable while attacking (e.g. Mounty, Burrowers).

Wintertide has great synergy with Rageclaws (and I guess any other rage unit too). I let one squad attack a wall and let Scythe fiends attack them.
Without Wintertide they dealt 273 dmg. With WT they dealt 825dmg.
The biggest problem is probably that it isn't power efficient anymore if the Rageclaws get CC'ed.

All in all the card seems useful but there is too much counterplay making it lack efficiency.