Daily Card Discussion

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

That are some interesting ideas Treim that actually sounds like they could work. Now that I come to think about it, you could actually find a use in a fire/frost deck focused around towers like Morklay Trap or Thermite Hill.

Still, I feel like what could be said pretty much has already be said, so maybe we could talk if there would be a nice tweak to the card to make it a more valid choice? We pretty much established that the card limits itself too much to "faster build up time, with some extras", but what if it could rather promote building structures in the first place?

The problem with structures is that they bind so much power, so what if the card had another ability which would allow 30% of the power cost (or more/less) flow directly into the void? I think this would make buildings structures more interesting without promoting too much cheese.

However, I still think it needs to be brought down to only one frost orb, as otherwise your range of possible structures is far too limited.

 

I think it could open some interesting possibilities when it comes to setting up defenses for your base, or just build up some Twilight Bombards for some serious long range damage. You might even want to drop the faster build time for that since that is covered by Kobold Inc already.

Opinions?

[Treim]

That are some interesting ideas Treim that actually sounds like they could work. Now that I come to think about it, you could actually find a use in a fire/frost deck focused around towers like Morklay Trap or Thermite Hill.

Still, I feel like what could be said pretty much has already be said, so maybe we could talk if there would be a nice tweak to the card to make it a more valid choice? We pretty much established that the card limits itself too much to "faster build up time, with some extras", but what if it could rather promote building structures in the first place?

The problem with structures is that they bind so much power, so what if the card had another ability which would allow 30% of the power cost (or more/less) flow directly into the void? I think this would make buildings structures more interesting without promoting too much cheese.

However, I still think it needs to be brought down to only one frost orb, as otherwise your range of possible structures is far too limited.

 

I think it could open some interesting possibilities when it comes to setting up defenses for your base, or just build up some Twilight Bombards for some serious long range damage. You might even want to drop the faster build time for that since that is covered by Kobold Inc already.

Opinions?

Problem about dropping the faster build time is that you would have to go 3 frost orbs to get that with Kobold Inc., and otherwise i do not see a chance of this being a card that can be used offensive at least. It wouldnt matter that much for defensive purposes however, and the power flow into void will help for that purpose a lot. I like that powerreturn to void pool a lot though. It has its use for defense and offense and seems to be a good addition for that card.

It really depends if you want to make the card more offensively or defensively.

Maybe you could handle that with the affinities? One is giving a rather big Building time decrease but no/next to no Powerflow into the voidpower pool, the other affinity does it the other way around.

Another possibility to handle that could be to make a fix powerflow into the voidpool for both affinities and give them 2 totally different bonus abilites. One is about the building time decrease, the other one is something defensivly, like getting an iceshield after the building is done( that one will not refresh though).

I really have no doubts that the orb requirements really f*ck that card the hard way. One frost orb is almost a must imo as it be way to limited to few buildings otherwise. On the other hand we really have to care about the strength of the buffs in that case. It shouldn't buff the defense of offensive factions to hard. I guess you could regulate that with the 'secondary' effect of the spell mostly. Alternatively you could buff buildings from frost splashes a bit more than non frost splashes, but that might make the card overcomplicated, not entirely sure if it is even necassery, but that be kept in mind if changing the card.

 

[Loptous]

 

Welcome back my beauties, the Daily Card Discussion is back! Now since the formalities are out of the way, I want to talk about Santa Claus.

The only thing I can kind of think of as benefits for this card, is escaping. Using the Blue Gift and Christmas Peace on a stack of enemies can be a perfect opportunity for escaping. The Red Gift's regen buff is pretty nice although there is a catch to this card... The abilities are only active in the Christmas Season *dun dun dun*, which means this card is useless, case closed!

 

[Ladadoos]

The only thing that I have to say about this card is that I bought a lot of them hoping to sell them for higher price. Never got to selling them all though, since the servers shut down.

[Kessler]

Never used that card because i never got Santa

Judging from what i saw Santa , it was rather bad , many T3 L cards have comparable stats for often cheaper power.

Not sure about Santa's ability but from what i've seen it's either very mediocore or rather bad and i haven't seen this card in pvp at all even on christmas , not that it would be a top choice for a T3 to begin with because of its terrible stats.

0/10 This card is only for show.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Kessler

[MrNguyen]

i think santa claus is a card that is played more for its abilites than stats, because for 200 those are terrible stats compared to most cards. and even its ability is not up to par for a legendary card.

[Loptous]

Now this card at least from what I have seen, is one of the most used cards in any deck that consists of frost. Unless someone happens to go more early game nature cards for a stonekin deck. I find this card very good against Ravage, another early game card that is used in most fire PVP decks. Combining this with the ice barrier is a pretty sweet combo and can ensure many victories. This even has some relative use late-game, since the attack buff is not a fixed amount, rather 40% attack.

I find this card very good, and I am sure most of you would think the same way 

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

Now this card at least from what I have seen, is one of the most used cards in any deck that consists of frost. Unless someone happens to go more early game nature cards for a stonekin deck. I find this card very good against Ravage, another early game card that is used in most fire PVP decks. Combining this with the ice barrier is a pretty sweet combo and can ensure many victories. This even has some relative use late-game, since the attack buff is not a fixed amount, rather 40% attack.

I find this card very good, and I am sure most of you would think the same way 

Such a good card, but so little to say about it. It's pretty central for Frost and can be used very effectively in later tiers too and the combo with Ice Barrier rocks too
It pretty much does what it says on the tin.

Might you elaborate how this card is good against Ravage? Or is it just the fact that you can outdamage the healing ability?

[Ultrakool]

Such a good card, but so little to say about it. It's pretty central for Frost and can be used very effectively in later tiers too and the combo with Ice Barrier rocks tooIt pretty much does what it says on the tin.

Might you elaborate how this card is good against Ravage? Or is it just the fact that you can outdamage the healing ability?

how would you calculate its effectiveness? Since it only applies damage increase, 40% increase attack isn't really the same as getting 40% of another unit.... So would you say its like 20% of another unit if you split health and attack into 1:1? By that theory you need a total units cost of 200 for the card to be balance its cost right?

[Geradon]

how would you calculate its effectiveness? Since it only applies damage increase, 40% increase attack isn't really the same as getting 40% of another unit.... So would you say its like 20% of another unit if you split health and attack into 1:1? By that theory you need a total units cost of 200 for the card to be balance its cost right?

Like our discussion in chat box showed. It's very hard to tell, when exactly Home Soild is effective and when not. 

There are so many factors to consider when you use it (like "In what Tier do u fight?", "Do u need to build a Ice Barrier beforehand (which decreases its value)?", "Does my opponent have CC for the time my units are buffed?" and a lot of other stuff).

In general I would say I like the card and it's a basic card of almost every competetive frost deck. 

 

[Kessler]

Nothing much to say really. It combines well with any rapid construction structure and ice barriers

It is just very easy to use , immediate benefits , cheap cost and you only need 1 rapid construction card be it ice barriers or ralling banner.

It's even an arcane spell so you can even use it just for the hell of it!

I do wonder however if home soil works on buildings that won't give you ground prescence (which makes the arcane component more usefull), if my memory serves me right , there was a stonekin card that allowed you to takeover hostile buildings(to an extend) but they didn't provide ground prescence.(Due to pve shenanigans , the captured buildings won't ground presence anymore)

9,5/10 Not much to argue about really , except for the minor nuisance to place a fast building.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Kessler
Grammar correction , don't stab me!

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

how would you calculate its effectiveness? Since it only applies damage increase, 40% increase attack isn't really the same as getting 40% of another unit.... So would you say its like 20% of another unit if you split health and attack into 1:1? By that theory you need a total units cost of 200 for the card to be balance its cost right?

 

Balancing and the calculation of unit efficiency is a bit tricky. It has some pitfalls and there are a lot of common mistakes when calculating the stat/power ratio. For example you can't just make: (ATK + HP) / Power cost.

The formula (ATK + HP) / Power Cost only works if health are either equal or very close to each other. But if it is the latter, it is only an okay approximation.

What you want to do is calculate the attack efficiency and health efficiency separately and multiply both in the end.
Which is the following: (ATK / Cost) * (HP / Cost).

One might ask why so complicated? Easy answer: Because if you double the damage of a unit, you want it to be statistically twice as good as before.
I've been using this formula with much success for the last 2 years on my Command and Conquer Kane's Wrath mod: One Vision. So, be assured that this is correct, I am not going to explain the details here.

Also, in terms of raw stats it does not matter if you increase health or damage, but I am not explaining that one here either.

 

As for home soil, we have 2 scenarios. 

S1: You need to kill something as fast as quickly and it does not shoot back. Therefore, health is not relevant.
S2: You fight against other monsters and health suddenly becomes relevant, as you units only deal as long as they are alive (duh).

I am going to give an example for Master Archers (U0). But everybody should be able to replicate it with any other unit.

Stats: 300 ATK / 600 HP, 50 power cost
Also I am using homesoil U3 which increases damage by 50%.

Master Archers - Scenario one

An easy example to see that homesoil on a single MA is crap:

Normal Attack efficiency = ATK / Cost = 300 / 50 = 6
MA + Homesoil efficiency = ATK * 1,5 / Cost of both cards = 450 / 90 = 5

Accordingly we get the following results if we use it on more than 1 MA:

2 MA = 6,4
3 MA = 7,1
4 MA = 7,5
100 MA = 8,92
1000 MA = 8,99
Infinite MA = 9 (just for fun)

Therefore we conclude that if we only want attack, it's already worth to play Homesoil after 2 MA. However, that only works in defense, as in offense you will need to summon an extra Ice Barrier and consider the extra 20 power as well.

Naturally, this excels more on units which have more attack to begin with. Among all frost units, Ice Guardian has the best attack efficiency with a value of 10.
Am I saying you should be spamming Ice Guardians + Ice Barrier + Homesoil to get a well down? No, of course not as he will react and summon own units, resulting in scenario 2.

Btw. if you attack with a counter, it also deals an additional 50% more damage to the target. Therefore, if the enemy player would spam an equal number of Dreadchargers he has the same buff (50%) but did not spend 40 power, gaining an advantage.

Master Archers - Scenario two

During fights with other units, health can easily be seen as "lifetime" that slowly runs out (due to enemies dealing damage to it). The more health a unit has, the longer it can deal damage.
There is not more to say about that

We remember, MA atk efficiency = 6.
Now, we also calculate their HP efficiency = 600 / 50 = 12
MA overall efficiency = 6 * 12 = 72

For comparison, we use HS on one MA again.
Using the values from above, this leaves us with: (300 / (50 + 40)) * (600 / ( 50 + 40 )) = 5 * 6,666 = 33,333

As you see, this is drastically worse. But after all, this is the expected result.

2 MA = 55
3 MA = 67
4 MA = 75 (this is where it starts to be worth it)
5 MA = 80
100 MA = 106,3
1000 MA = 107,8
infinite MA = 108 (just for fun)

As you can see, it excels once you have 4 MAs deployed.

You can do this for any kind of unit composition. It might get a bit messy if you include multiple units and if you place it with Ice Barrier you need to consider the extra 20 power cost as well. And due to the nature of buffs, it can be countered with CC.

I think as a rule of thumb, it is recommended to use homesoil on 4+ units if you defend (and are in scenario 2). But the more expensive your units are, the less are required to make it power efficient. As an example, 3 Lightblades + Homesoil are more efficient in that matter.

However, if you only attack and want to bring down a well as fast as possible it already excels with 2 units. For that matter, 2 Burrowers with Homesoil and Ice Barrier are in fact better than attacking with 3 Burrowers.

 

This is a pure mathematical approach that has its weakness when it comes to unit counters, range, abilities etc. So you still need common sense and as I already mentioned, this is only a rule of thumb.

I also advice players who play frost (splashes) to check their most favourite units with this formula and see when it is worth to play HS.

 

 

[Treim]

 This card was key card for (almost) any rPVE 1 and 2 player speedrun scenarios for multiple years( until the nerfs of wog, second chance and soul splicer-fof-embalmer-combo).

Still very relevant in most frost t1 speedrun decks, just due to its efficiency with relatively low amounts of units( like @Mental Omega) just proofed in his post above, even though it took it hits from a nerf some time ago. The synergy with Ice Barrier is just insane. On top of that you get nice s-knockback from frost mages, making most t2 bases relatively easy to run over. (Standard t2 in solo rPVE lvl 10 should take about 5-7 frost mages + 1 home soil + 1 ice barrier, depending on how well you approach the base and what units are in there)

 

I do wonder however if home soil works on buildings that won't give you ground prescence (which makes the arcane component more usefull), if my memory serves me right , there was a stonekin card that allowed you to takeover hostile buildings(to an extend) but they didn't provide ground prescence.(Due to pve shenanigans , the captured buildings won't ground presence anymore)

9,5/10 Not much to argue about really , except for the minor nuisance to place a fast building.

Home soil works at least with Matter Mastery, cant really judge for other non ground presence buildings like the bomb from Altar of Chaos or the likes though.

This synergy massively helps against Twilight lvl 10 rPVE( especially 4 player). Takeover the Willzappers before they paralyze your units( yes that is possible if you have fast fingers ), and suddenly you can homesoil huge parts of your army and get some extra cc on top of it .

[Plasi]

What you want to do is calculate the attack efficiency and health efficiency separately and multiply both in the end.
Which is the following: (ATK / Cost) * (HP / Cost).

 

 Because if you double the damage of a unit, you want it to be statistically twice as good as before.
 

It seems, that these sentences of you decline each other. You pay for a unit, that is twice as good twice as much. But if you double your damage, your cost just increase by the factor 1.41.

Well I have always calculated

ATK*TIME/COST                                          |TIME=HP/ (ENEMYDPS)

ATK*HP/ ((ENEMYDPS)*COST)

Since you can't directly influence the DPS of your Enemy, I took that as a constant.

So you get (ATK*HP/Cost), which actually states your second statement.

Abstract Example:

Two units, unit A 1000/1000(100 Energy), and one enemy unit, B 1000/2000(200Energy). After a fix time period, A is dead (lost 100 Energy), and unit B has half of its life remaining, a 1000/1000, which is as unit A stated 100 Energy, so basicly both player got an equal good unit.

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

It seems, that these sentences of you decline each other. You pay for a unit, that is twice as good twice as much. But if you double your damage, your cost just increase by the factor 1.41.

Well I have always calculated

ATK*TIME/COST                                          |TIME=HP/ (ENEMYDPS)

ATK*HP/ ((ENEMYDPS)*COST)

Since you can't directly influence the DPS of your Enemy, I took that as a constant.

So you get (ATK*HP/Cost), which actually states your second statement.

Abstract Example:

Two units, unit A 1000/1000(100 Energy), and one enemy unit, B 1000/2000(200Energy). After a fix time period, A is dead (lost 100 Energy), and unit B has half of its life remaining, a 1000/1000, which is as unit A stated 100 Energy, so basicly both player got an equal good unit.

 

Now, that's really embarassing lol.

But yes, you are correct. Thank you for pointing out the error, I will correct it tomorrow.

You made me realize that my formula uses power cubed and if you write a bit differently, you get = ATK * HP / Power ^2. However, it must have linear properties.
Now that I look back I really should have seen that but in the examples I made to this it, it did seem correct.

Actually, I use a different formula for my own projects, which is ATK * SquareRoot(Power) * HP * SquareRoot(Power).

Yes, it basically is the same as your formula but it makes life easier when designing units, as you can see very fast if a unit is more of a damage dealer or tank (as you can take ATK and HP separately).

I didn't want to bother with the roots and made some tests without them and surprisingly the same results came out when I adjusted the stats. I just completely forgot to test a change in power as well... Note that I made that formula more than 2 years ago and didn't remember the details behind it anymore. So yeah, the way I approached was a bit too careless.

 

However, one thing that strikes me is why do you consider the enemy DPS? As I said, this formula is used to represent a "per unit power efficiency". Every combat related aspect should be calculated in a separate step.
And there are A LOT of things to consider. Battleforge is very easy in that matter, as BF has only little things to consider.

For example, if you want to calculate the result of a ranged vs melee unit you'd also need to consider its speed and the range of the unit. 

But if you keep it simple and give both no/equal range:

Your unit: 90 DPS / 900 HP
Enemy unit: 90 DPS / 450 HP
And for the sake of comparability they have equal power cost.

After a battle, you are left with your unit having 450 HP. I don't quite see how mixing up efficiency and individual stats would make sense.

Considering the enemy DPS without the context of battle would either mean that you cannot or dont want to attack the source of the damage. As, every other case, an enemy only has a limited health/time pool as well (if you treat health as time).

 

If you wish to continue this discussion, please make an own thread. I don't think this is the right place to discuss this thing.

[Loptous]

Let's talk about a more interesting card. About Wrathblades, the Burnout skill makes them deal 30% more damage for 20 seconds, unlike the skeleton warriors, who die after the use, these guys will just deal 30% less damage for 40 seconds.... Although I can find very useful things to do with this card in 20 seconds, I still do not see a point of putting this on instead of skeleton warriors, dreadcharger, forsaken, etc. Anyways if I was to take this card, I would find great synergy with Life Weaving, Motivate, etc. But after 30 seconds are over, the card becomes useless, and your probably better off killing it for some soul splicer meat or something. 

Overall I really do not like this card at all.

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

It's not a bad card and I liked using it for Shadow pve on occasion. Wrathblades bring good value for their points and besides Dreadcharger, it is the only anti-S T1 shadow has... which is the problem of this card. It competes with Dreadcharger. Therefore, it is irrelevant for pvp.

Actually, they are a great complement to shadow's excellent ranged anti-M capabilities, due to their counter. But the problem is that Nox and Forsaken are that strong, you don't really need another S counter. While Skeleton warriors just give you more of the anti-m you already have plenty of, they soak up so much damage that you don't need to use your counters efficiently.

What really makes Skeleton Warriors superior is that their upgrades really make them much more better than they should be on U3. On U3, their ability will lower incoming damage by 60%, so its very unlikely that you will kill them before time runs out. And Skeletons also have slightly better stats for their price if you compare both units.

 

Just to demonstrate how strong their ability is: 100 / 0,4 = 250.
So, if we would translate this buff to Wrathblades' attack increase, you would need to make them have 2,5 more damage, which would be utterly insane.

TL;DR: It's good on U0, but the ability of Skeleton Warriors is far too good ability to ignore it once you reach U3.

 

[Loptous]

Now I am not sure if anyone remembers this being of the most wanted nature cards, and for a very good reason! I remember them selling these for 200-400 a piece, just because of how good it is. 

The basic Shaman card only heals 120 every 5 seconds which in itself is very good.

Every upgrade the card gets, gains 10 more healing and some nice HP buffs, making it pretty tanky and a very good support. The only things I can find that would counter it would be mainly Shadow cards such as: Nox Trooper and Shadow Phoenix. While on the other factions, I find it hard to counter because, it's only counters are Medium units, and units above that range obviously. 

Although like most nature cards, the power cost is pretty pricey, which is pretty much the only cons I can find within this card.

[SunWu]

In PVE i remember it mostly as a card that made attacking and defending convenient and easygoing if you didn't care for speed. Very beginnerfriendly and therefor you probably saw hundreds of armies of windweavers + shaman in your BF time.

In PvP it was a core card (treespirit era aside), especially needed in mirrors. Those were basically summoning shamans until you have enough to one-hit your oponents shamans and then it was mostly about better timing. Like Loptous said, weak against shadow, but not really because of shadow phoenix (wich destroys any nature T1) and instead of noxes. Though once you had 3-4 windweavers + dryad on the field and power for roots on the side you could also keep a shaman in the back. I don't remember many nature-frost encounters but i think shamans weren't as good as dryad-spam.

[Treim]

This card does not fit my playstyle at all... i truely hate it and will never touch it as long as i can avoid it somehow ( it is somewhat necassery for some speedrun strategies) so i didnt even played those maps.. or at least those positions).

Way overrated for rPVE imo and just a card that provides a lot of safety and room for mistakes in that mode, slows down the game without gaining you any kind of fun. On top of it it was probably the most unnecassery card in nature rPVE decks (talking about decks for lvl 9 as most people never won against lvl 10 maps(except bandits). In 99% of the maps you would get away with 5-7 windweavers + root/hurricane + 1-2 surge of light. Only exception: shielded mana beast at tier 2 base and mana beast income from t3 which might cause 1-2 extra heals. Just not worth putting in shamans and slowing down the game. Imo spellheavy decks are superior for rPVE( at least regarding speed, can be a lot of fun as well though). Shamans are that expensive and you need at least 2 or 3 of them that you almost have to keep them to fight for t3, which can destroy some fun strategies for t3 clearing.

 

I would probably say that shamans are as boring as LSS-Spam or Shadow Phoenixes with Embalmer Shrine ... they just are way slower on top of that..

 

--> Shaman just not the type of card that really fits my kind of playstyle, wouldnt mind seeing this card removed

This post is somewhat messy and unstructured, still hope you get what i mean.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Treim

[veryhasted]

Just using a juggernaut and 4 shamans does the job in most low level PvE maps  So I like them

[Shalade]

Shaman was crucial for me at my Nature / Stonekin decks at T1. The healing was nice, and coupled with Surge of Light they would keep my Windweavers alive for a long time. It'd carry to T2, and although they'd be weaker than Crystal Fiends, they'd save me enough Void Power to carry to T3 in most BGs

[Hirooo]

I don't remember many nature-frost encounters but i think shamans weren't as good as dryad-spam.

Since Frost wins with magespam anyways neither dryads or shamanspam was an option.

If Frost took a well more on close maps you can try to shamanspam and since they are m counters you dont want more than 1 dryad in that spam.

Wish regards,

XHirooo

[Loptous]

So taking this card over scavenger does what again? I just find this card too expensive, and to get the buff at least two more have to be around to make them actually useful. Then after upgrading them like 2 times I believe they learn an ability called Sky Scare. The Sky Scare ability does like 600 only to flying units, which sounds pretty good except the 100 power cost. Having at least three of these is going to come at the costly price of 225 power, during the early game, because I see no use of these late-game as much in PVP. PVE this card would alright I guess, it can trample smaller units but still I would rather have a Scavenger, Firesworn, and a Sunderer. I would even go Thugs before this and or Strikers. 

I am sure that someone running a bandit PVP deck which included early game Fire units would most likely go for Scavenger in terms of scouting, capturing wells, etc. 

This just seems to pricey as an early game card where you are trying to set some dominance on the field by wasting as little power as possible, to capture wells and orbs. I rate this card 5/10, although having a decent stat line when upgraded, and some uses for PVE, it's pricey power costs to be useful is something not wanted in PVP to turn a game around or to initiate one.

What do you guys think?

[ImaginaryNumb3r]

Nomad. A great card.

But first, why should anybody consider replacing Scavenger with Nomad? Scavenger is used in pvp because it fills 2 roles: slow and anti-s. Nomad does none of those things, it has an entirely different job. But neither could Scavenger replace Nomad in a pve scenario... (that argument goes both ways).
Also, Thugs have become the meta for Fire T1 and has become a very essential part of fire T1. Of course you take that card over Nomads (just saying).

But first, I'll talk about PvE. With the red affinity you can easily overrun enemy T1 fortification. Their damage is insane and all you need are some Sunstriders to cover air. The AA is nice to have, but far too expensive for what it does. It's a bit risky, but with some experience and micro you get a lot of value for that card.

With the 50% damage buf, it actually has by far the best stats among all Fire T1 cards when you calculate how much bang you get for buck. And it is also has the best stats among all T1 cards in general (and don't forget it's swift). The reason you don't see it often is because it has to attack in groups of 3+ so it is easily killable with splash spells like nasty and eruption.

Some people prefer the green ability because it is easier to use and gives you some good macro abilities and a lot of staying power, given that you are not overrun by a vast superiority. So, in pve it is a matter of personal taste. And since Scavenger isn't really a good pve card, Nomads are a really great swift pve asset.

Moreover, it's a very good starting card for rPvE, as well as user friendly and fun in general. I preferred using Thugs + Sunstriders, and while those are a bit more risky to use, they can give you additional resources and boost your start into T2. But that's a story for a different time

Anyway, green Nomads have unique properties for Fire T1 standards and you know what? There were top tier players who used Green Nomads to beat Frost T1. So it's far, FAR away from being a bad card. Especially in pvp. Most notably "Legend" who inveted this strategy. But this was near the end of BF.

Because Frost can't kill Nomads (or anything, really) very fast, Nomad's passive heal really starts to kick in. And unlike Shadow and Fire, Frost does not have instant damage spells that would deal splash damage.

And if Frost has a scary looking army that could kill Nomads? lol, run away.

9/10

 

Btw. is there are reason we only discuss T1 cards now?

 

Edit: Corrected some typods and changed some of the phrasings.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Mental Omega