Shadow T2 issues : a solution to solve it

[This Is Halloween_2]

 Shadow T2 issues in PvE :

 

As you all know, shadow in PvE is in a really weird place in the T1-T2 phase. Past T3, shadow has access to plenty of tools to equal the playing field with other factions.
At T1, shadow is in a hard place. But PvP balance & shadow identity make it hard to assure a good T1 in PvE. It is however still viable, with access to sustain, good range units, a global damage buff, and a viable tower in def scenario. Considering how careful balancing T1 require, owing to PvP, I'm going to concentrate on T2 viability.
 

T2 shadow is defined by 2 cards : harvester and shadow phoenix. All other options are clearly inferior.

Shadow mage foulplay + chaos knight neither warp TP is too cluncky, and impossible to scale up (you can successfully & with a limited range TP 1chaos knight for a good explosion, but more than one and they kill each other, so you can't scale the combo, & by itself it isn't enough).
Nightcrawler suicide rush and eliminator + rippers simply don't work well enough outside of really specific situations.

Harvester is overall in a good place. It benefit from lifeweaving for increased survivability, and can use stocked corpses from soulsplicer to insure the 1st use of it's ability.

Then we got shadow phoenix + embalmer's shrine combo. A combo that has always been problematic because it allows to basically crush any land armies while unbounding your army.
Now, I don't think having strong card combo is a problem in the game. After all, synergies are good to push payers toward complex deck building, and combo of cards also cost precious deck slots, a resource that was always at a premium, and a downside that is even more costly in the post amii monument era we are in.
Having said that, phoenix + embalmer combo is a clear outsider compared to others (Time vortex + FoF, viridya + lost shade, strikers + Fire Force, commandos + rioter's retreat, ...).

Contrary to all those, the phoenix + embalmer combo allows not only quick nuking of entire group of ennemies, but also the full unbouding of your army. That last part is what really make the combo stands out compared to all others.
It's also the reason why shadow hasn't received any PvE T2 support from the team. It's too strong, hence you can't up the rest of the faction.

For the short term, it's also a combo that is used as a short gap for the almost non-existent T2 amii. On the long term however, it will also keep the rest of the faction from evolving, like T2 shadow.

Now let's talk about the other options, should we ever do something about it.
 

1st the limits :
1) The unbounding part is almost impossible to remove, with phoenix in it's current iteration.

2) We do need to offer compensation, but also an alternative, to shadow T2, and to a lesser extend to amii & maybe even bandit & lost soul.
3) We should avoid destroying the combo, & more importantly the cards themselves.
4) We need to offer alternative to the affected factions.

The last point 3 points is what has motivated me to write this long post 😅.

Many ideas have been thrown around to solve the phoenix issue. There's basically 2 big side : make shadow phoenix spawn smaller phoenix or phoenix with less damage (the reduce damage per iteration solution), or increase corpses requirement after each resurection iteration.

It is the last one that has made me realise 1 of the biggest issues of the combo : embalmers shrine insanely high level of corpes increase +220% or x3,2.
It basically divide by 3,2 the resurrection cost of the phoenix. But outside of phoenix, the card is never seen.
So we got a card that trully enable the combo, but is never used anywhere else.

Right now, a phoenix can do up to 2200 dmg. Add dmg to buildings not generating corpses, ennemies shield, and overkill, and it's hard for a phoenix to pay for it's own corpse cost.
With embalmer, it's 625. 2 unit in the area is already 1100 dmg. even with shields & overkill, it allows easy resurection.

So my idea is this : rework embalmer shrines to reduce its combo potential with phoenix, while opening the card to combo with others shadow corpses based cards, like FoF, necro-blaster, shadow insect & altar of chaos.

To do that, it means reducing the bonus significanty while giving a better reason to play the cards in any other situations, introducing flexibility. We need to"de-couple" a bit the 2.
My idea is then to make the shrine passive, moving it to T2 &increasing itscost in compensation while cutting by more than half the bonus :

Orb cost: Shadow, Neutral (T2)
Power cost: 70-90 range
Charges : 4
Description: Passive : all corpses in the current game will grant (55-65 / 60-70 / 70-80) 80-90% more life points when being gathered

At 80% bonus, phoenix resurrection cost increase to 1111 instead of 625, meaning that at least 3 units per phoenix must be hit to trigger its effect. Additional testing must be done with the numbers of course (& maybe resurected phoenix will need to have an increased cost to 2500-3000 if trully needed), but this change is a step that allows us to both keep the combo with a slap on the wrist, while giving a new tool to shadow to combo with other cards.
FoF basically becomes 9% void return, but at a cost of 1/1.5 less cultist master at T3 bounded power in the shrine). It "gives" back to casual players a solution to automate their necro-blaster defense, so without cultist, but at a cost of an additional card slot (which in this case is alright, again a solo tower is problematic, a combo of card isn't, the player will have to sacrifice something else, like cultist).

Now for the compensation : we need something to help shadow T2 units (mage, knight, rippers, nightcrawlers, eliminator). I already made post on the subject.
What shadow T2 needs is a healing/sustain spell. There's 2 theme for shadow : corpses & lifesteal. Lifesteal is out of the question for T3-T4 scalability reason (thx Cocofang & Hrdina Impéria).
Furthermore, as pointed out by Tristan in previous conversations, we need to be carefull not to allow the new card to enhance harvester (PvP & PvE considerations).

After much iterations, the best idea I have than can work is to introduce a sustain shadow spell using the special effect from rippers; allowing units or the spell to consume corpses. Since many sustain options are 1 orb restrictive (nature heals but also bloodhealing), & in the idea to also help amii, I think it's faire to make the spell 1 orb restrictive :

Soul Feast Orb cost: Shadow, Neutral (T2)
Power cost: 90p (more ?)
Charges : 16
Description 1 : Summon a 25m radius corpse collecting aura in a chosen area. For the next 30 seconds all corpses in that area will be consumed to regenerate 35-45 life points every seconds to every friendly unit in the area. Reusable every 30 seconds.
Description 2 : Summon a 25m radius magical aura. All friendly unit in the aura consume nearby corpses to regenerate 35-45 life points every second. Last 30 seconds. Reusable every 30 seconds.

I feel the correct regeneration rate is somewhere between 35 & 45hp/s. The new card will combo with our reworked embalmer's shrine, but most of all shadow mage doubled with a frontline of chaos knights or rippers.
This spell will give an alternative to shadow at T2 that doesn't enhance harvester.
I'm still not 100% on how to make the effect work in relation to range units (I prefer description 2, easier to implement, but the question for me is whether ranged units will have enough range to gater the corpses for regeneration).
The spell doesn't combo that much with ashbone, who tends not to kill things 1 by 1 but often all at the same time due to their flamethrower, & then moving away. Viridya already offer a 45hp regen every 2s to them, unconditionnaly.
Big XL units at T3 don't gain much with this. Only magma hurlers could be a bit of a problem (& even there unity G might be better so i'm not too much afraid).

The big upside of this spell is that it allows shadow to use both shadow mage at T2, and cultist master at T3, in an offensive way (blood healing with cultist master is impracticale).

To resume :

1) To nerf phoenix + embalmer combo, & open embalmer to other possibilities, make it passive in exchange for Tier & cost increase, & massive corpses buff decrease.
2) Give shadow/amii/bandit/LS a new sustain tool using rippers effect. To me it is strange that only rippers & overlord use this considering how shadowy the effect feels. This tool open shadow to shadow mage + frontline rippers/chaos knight combo, & use of cultist master offensively (shadow mage needs 35hp/s min to regen between 2 shots).

These changes should open more possibilities for shadow at T2, while starting to put in check the phoenix combo.

Your though ?

https://discord.com/channels/604212371828899851/739437604914855996/1388891178920837333

Edited June 29 by This Is Halloween_2

[Fimion]

For an avid rPvE Expert+ player like me a Shadow Phoenix nerf would be a disaster there are alot of maps where you absolutely need Phoenix+Embalmer to win expecially when you have a bad teammate.

For example there are Bandit/Stonekin maps where T3 and T4 are right next to eachother you will have to kill 4 XL units + 4 Windhunters which is almost impossible with any other card especially when you have a slow teammate or on 2 player maps. Another expample are Lost Souls maps where you have to defend T3 against big spawn waves while flying over with some Phoenixes to help your teammate get his T2.

There are so many maps that are barely beatable even with Phoenix+Embalmers expecially when you have slow teammates nerfing the Phoenix Embalmer combo would result in even more gatekeeping that means i would have to kick 80-90% of players i usually play with and that would completely ruin rPvE Expert+ because even in its current state it sometimes takes 15-30 minutes to find decent players.

 

Edited June 29 by Fimion

[Immortal Skylord]

The only way to get speed run rpve is exactly phoenix + embalmer combo. With your suggestion, this will change play style for phoenix deck for most rpve player. I don't know why you wanted to suggest nerf card since "In 2024 we made the controversial decision to change Amii monument. While we do not enjoy nerfing cards players like, we do so because we think it is the best choice for the game as a whole. As mentioned in our explanation of change, we think that the time of major nerfs is now at an end, and we as a team commit to no further nerfs on the scale of Amii Monument or the previous Batariel nerf from 2 years ago to existing cards going forward." 

Why not talk about buffing card? Tbh I hardly see any phoenix + embalmer combo since fire season. My rpve duo runner quit too. So I don;t know maybe as community we gear toward buffing card or leave the shit as it is.

[Rankerz]

I have made a similar topic about Shadow Phoenix a couple years ago, and the conclusion was it is complicated to do and the devs rather focusing on buffing cards

Since it is fire season, I do not think many people even notice the existence of this card apart from high difficulty RVPE teams

If there will be a shadow themed season, this topic would get more attention imo

Apart from nerfing the card the ground or total rework, a possible solution would be to make it a pure shadow card or bump the tier up T3.

This would allow more room for splash decks and other T2 options to breathe without touching the initial mechanism

Also, if this is the only way to beat certain maps, than the issue is with the map not with the card imo

 

[Fimion]

2 hours ago, Rankerz said:

Also, if this is the only way to beat certain maps, than the issue is with the map not with the card imo

With a good team you can beat pretty much any rPvE Expert+ map without phoenixes but good luck finding one. The average player has no idea how to handle difficult situations.

[This Is Halloween_2]

So, let's add in a bit more precision.

1st, I do not see this change being implemented until some time, as shadow & amii needs a bit more help (which is why I also added the corpses regen spell, and there's additional floating ideas of having a shadow T1 or T2 spell with a summoning demon effect once enough corpses/killed units are collected).

However, phoenix + embalmer is perhaps the very last of the broken things left from old BF that hasn't gotten fixed by the devs.
 

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Apart from nerfing the card the ground or total rework, a possible solution would be to make it a pure shadow card or bump the tier up T3.

There's 2 ways to fix something : the sledghammer, like what was done for amii monument or decomposer, or a more limited correction, like SoW, frenetic assault, infect.

 

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For an avid rPvE Expert+ player like me a Shadow Phoenix nerf would be a disaster there are alot of maps where you absolutely need Phoenix+Embalmer to win expecially when you have a bad teammate.

For example there are Bandit/Stonekin maps where T3 and T4 are right next to eachother you will have to kill 4 XL units + 4 Windhunters which is almost impossible with any other card especially when you have a slow teammate or on 2 player maps

and 

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Also, if this is the only way to beat certain maps, than the issue is with the map not with the card imo

I do think something that allows in a 4P settings, a player to wipe out 2 strong camps solo without too much struggle, while unbounding its units in the meantime, is a problem.

However, I'm not found of the sledgehammer method.
Furthermore, one issue we have is that both cards are not actually that amazing taken solo.
Shadow phoenix, without embalmer's shrine, is ok, while the shrine itself is bad.
 

That's why a core part of the post is to identify solution for both cards to be viable independently, while trying not to destroy but only limit the combo to a more reasonable level (going from absolute S+ tier to a simple S tier solution).

So yes, I do propose for embaler's shrine a significant decrease in corpses bonus, in exchange for a passive system of work, making the card better at combo with other shadow tool like necro-blaster or other more cpve cards, or the new spell I've proposed. This will not kill the combo, but it will require situations to be a bit more perfect for mass resurection of unbounded phoenix.

Considering shadow phoenix place, I do propose, if needed, to increase the number of charges from 12 --> 16 and to make phoenix spawned undazed.
This will make the card a bit more like the spell it's supposed to be and can help compensate a decrease in resurection (it's more acceptable because those additional 4 charges bind power temporarily).

Lastly, I still wait for your comments on the new spell I've proposed 😃

Shadow at T2 really needs something to move away from phoenix

Edited July 2 by This Is Halloween_2

[Fimion]

I never said the Phoenix+Embalmer combo isnt a bit OP but thats just what you need when you encounter difficut enemies with a random team. Finding good players for rPvE Expert+ is very hard even alot of high ranked players completely mess up in difficult situations thats why Phoenix+Embalmer is so important for me. Just try this weeks 2 player infected map at Expert+ with a random player.

If they would nerf the Phoenix+Embalmer combo which i REALLY hope they wont Expert+ with random players would be pretty much over. Of course you could just restart if you encouter difficult enemies or only play easy maps of the month but im not interested in playing like that i would probably just quit.

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Considering shadow phoenix place, I do propose, if needed, to increase the number of charges from 12 --> 16 and to make phoenix spawned undazed.
This will make the card a bit more like the spell it's supposed to be and can help compensate a decrease in resurection (it's more acceptable because those additional 4 charges bind power temporarily).

Bad idea you never need more than 10-12 Phoenixes in difficult situations(like Bandit/Stonekin double bases with 4 XL units+4 Windhunters) i first unbind my Phoenixes either by killing spawn waves or by attacking the T2 side camp then i destroy my Shadow T2 monument and switch to Nature so i can support my Phoenixes with Oink and Surge of Light. There are plenty of situations where the Phoenix+Embalmer combo is too weak and healing+CC is needed expecially on 2 player maps.

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Lastly, I still wait for your comments on the new spell I've proposed 😃

Its impossible to tell if that spell would be worth a deck slot before testing it in difficult situations but to me it seems pretty bad. Just imagine you have to deal with massive Lost Souls spawn waves or close bases with 4 XL units(Tortugun and Walker)+Windhunters that slow HP regeneration wouldnt do anything. It could be a fun card for some campaign maps or Advanced++(lvl6) in combaintion with Shadow Mages but thats pretty much it.

 

 

Edited July 3 by Fimion