Araim Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) As someone who loved to play with root-Units and building since original Battleforge i think the way you changed how the root-support works to “only get support from not in combat units” generally an interesting change which makes playing roots a little more challenging, even if you more or less force the users to put Thornbark to the deck. One problem with this change is, however that the Treespirit-units became worthless. The ability of the rooted Treespirits of firing a volley which deals 75 dmg /max 115 an this every 10 seconds compared with lets say Dryad (50 dmg/max 70 every 2 sec) or the Windweavers (6x10dmg all 2,5sec / 12x10 if two enemy units are in range) is simply put not worth the effort. And since on most, if not all maps you’ll have to quickly make a t1 army with enough punch to challenge whatever the map throws at you treespirits are simply a not usable since you lack the time and power to make a decent attack army with them AND make the necessary support for them to be actually usefull To make them an actually quite interesting unit I would suggest tree changes for treespirits 1. Make it, that the Root support of the Treespirits works the way it used to, they provide support to the Root network even if they are in combat 2. Let them provide two Support per unit and give the support to all units in the range BUT they only support units and Buildings which are effectively in their own range, not in the complete Root network 3. Reduce the range of the Root support they give by roughly 50% or probably even reduce to only 25% of the original Support range The benefits I’ll see in this changes would be as follow: Regarding change 1: this way you are actually able to use this unit from start since now they can support themselves even I combat. A fully supported a treespirit’s damage becomes a little better than the damage of similar t1 range units from nature but not massively better and from orb two and rising the damage they deal in combt becomes more and more only “background noise” Regarding change 2 and 3: giving two support per unit would make a decent alternative to the Thornbarks as support units since from midgame on one of the, if not the most valuable resource is Unit-Cap and a Thornbark with 3 support at 5 Unit-Cap cost vs Treespirit with 2 Support at 3 Unit cap means you’ll get full support at nearly the same Unit-Cap cost (10 Thornbark vs 9 Treespirits) By allowing the Treespirits to support every unit even in combat, but only the Units/Towers who are effectively in range of the rootsupport of tis specific treespirit and not supporting over the whole Rootnetwort you’ll also create a new way to “Focus Support” a specific unit or building in the Root network without the need to cut this entity from the rest of the Root network. It gives the possibility to greatly strengthen a specific area but with the reduced range (lets go with only 25% Supportrange) you can support more than one Unit but not to many and only in this exact location. And since you only have limited unit Capacity you wont doo this on a Wide area. I think with those changes Treespirit would become a quite fun unit without becoming overpowered and it gives the player a support alternative to the Tornbarks so players can decide: go with Thornbark for Complete network wide support or go with Treespirit for focus support Edited January 28 by Araim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Is Halloween_2 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) Root network was not changed to only give support from out of combat unit, it always worked like that. The team simply updated the text on the cards so the effect was more clear to people (original text was notoriously lackluster in the root system description). Furthermore, not only did root network support never worked « in combat », but there was also a hidden cap of 10 support per network. So you could never have 3 fully supported razorleaf. That cap was removed, allowing for much more powerful scaling. For tree spirit, he was nerfed because of PvP. And you can’t make him 2 support, he only cost 50 and is T1. You would make a T1 unit better than a T3 at its specific role. And no, population is not a limit until the really late game, but power, and even more important, binded power is. Right now he’s used as a mobile battery for spikeroot at most. It’s true that it could need some help, but PvP balance limit the options. Edited January 29 by This Is Halloween_2 armatores likes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majora Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 This is Halloween is correct; we did not change the ''does not work in combat'' rule, that was always the case. We also buffed Root Network with his mentioned other changes. As for Root spirit specifically; we did make changes to the card for two reasons: - It was obnoxious in PvP to play against - It currently fills the role of a ''battery'' unit for the Root network: a cheap unit to increase the max units connected to the network. Once you reach tier 3, Thornbark can fill a similar role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araim Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 (edited) Well, i do remember the original battleforge time where you could have 6 Treespirits and they ALL attacked at the reduced speed of full support on themselve and the same with spikeroot, thornbark and so on but hey, that is not a problem. as i said, i like the way it is now. so lets not discuss if i dreamth this. let's put this point under the carpet. I can see Halloweens points as definetly vallid reasons why it wasn't changet till now, i've also seen some of the problems, that's why i thought about the reduced Rootsupport range and only provide support to those units who are effetively in range of the Treespirit and not over the complete Rootnetwork to differate Treespirit from Thornbark. I admit however that i have no idea about pvp because pvp simply is'nt fun for me so i can make no judgements in this area and i believe it if you say treespirit wold be a pain if it was different. I however still do hope that some changes can be made to Treespirit to make it more than a "battery unit" from t2 in Pve. Maybe this idea would be more reasonable. How about giving the Treespirits a new ability: Quickroot. allows the Unit to enter and leave "Root-stance" lets say 50% faster (more, or less depending how usefull it actually plays out) This way you can use the Treespirits as a melee unit, while rooting and unrooting them mid combat to add a little range damage. makes the unit quite micromanagement heavy but not too much. at the moment you "lose roughly tree melee hits while rooting yourselve and another tree while unrooting. One voley deals roughly the same amount of damage to one unit as two melee hits, lets say the same damage as tree hits if you count in that the voley also deals a little damage to a second unit. If the hastend rooting and unrooting combined would make it that you only lose the same amount of damage that you deal with the volley then you will not winn nor lose damage but since the volley can target Air units and have a special effect (poison or ignore damage reduction) it would be valuable for the player to root them regulary and let them fight in melee in between. From T2 on you still will use it as moblie battery because from then on T2 units deal significantly more damage this way I admit: i have no idea if this actually would make the unit more playable in pve T1 but for my self i must say i definetly would try it out I also admit again: i have no idea of pvp so if this would make the unit again a pain in the ... in pvp then i'll beleve you since i dont have a clue what goes on there Edited January 29 by Araim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Is Halloween_2 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Araim said: Well, i do remember the original battleforge time where you could have 6 Treespirits and they ALL attacked at the reduced speed of full support on themselve and the same with spikeroot, thornbark and so on but hey, that is not a problem. as i said, i like the way it is now. so lets not discuss if i dreamth this. let's put this point under the carpet. Pretty sure it was a dream 😃 . Yea unfortunately treespirit isn't in the best of place in pve right now, and pvp balance does limit what we can do with it. I do like your quickroot idea though. Accelerating their rooting/unrooting animation should be doable I think, and it could help a bit at T1. Their main problem right now is that root defense trully reach its potential at T3, and thornbark is a superior battery choice (as it should be, you can't expect a T3 unit to perform worst than a T1 unit at the same task). At T2 you are limited supporting living tower, which cost 70 so not that interesting to sacrifice a card slot to support them when they can do so themselves, or spikeroot who cost 110. So at most treespirit serves as a battery for spikeroot right now. Not the best of places in the nature meta I agree. They do have a place on map 1 ascension as solo def if you decide not to go manawing spam though. And they are seen as spikeroot battery on crusade for example (but it works for dwarven riddle or guns of Lyr too). Edited January 29 by This Is Halloween_2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fimion Posted Tuesday at 01:39 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 01:39 PM On 1/29/2025 at 10:24 PM, Araim said: Well, i do remember the original battleforge time where you could have 6 Treespirits and they ALL attacked at the reduced speed of full support on themselve and the same with spikeroot, thornbark and so on but hey, that is not a problem. as i said, i like the way it is now. so lets not discuss if i dreamth this. let's put this point under the carpet. On 1/29/2025 at 11:37 PM, This Is Halloween_2 said: Pretty sure it was a dream 😃 . I'm pretty sure it was like that in in the early days of Battle Forge in 2009 or 2010 i never played much PvP but i remember people complaining about Root Network decks being extremely OP in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Is Halloween_2 Posted 14 hours ago Share Posted 14 hours ago 23 hours ago, Fimion said: I'm pretty sure it was like that in in the early days of Battle Forge in 2009 or 2010 i never played much PvP but i remember people complaining about Root Network decks being extremely OP in PvP. I remember that the pb of root units for competitive pvp came with tree spirit, which was released in 2012 during the last edition. And at that point root network used the current system (+ the hidden cap). I don't remember root network ever working like the OP mentionned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fimion Posted 11 hours ago Share Posted 11 hours ago 2 hours ago, This Is Halloween_2 said: I remember that the pb of root units for competitive pvp came with tree spirit, which was released in 2012 during the last edition. And at that point root network used the current system (+ the hidden cap). I don't remember root network ever working like the OP mentionned. Would be interesting to take a look at the patch notes from original BattleForge but i'm afraid that information was lost when EA shut down the BattleForge Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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