Appollonir Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Hello! I randomly came up with an idea that most likely someone has already suggested, but I couldn't find a post about it. That's why I decided to describe it here. The idea is to allow small units with spears to attack XL units from the wall (if it's technically possible) . Pros: 1. It will look natural and dynamic. 2. Putting melee units on walls has almost no use at the moment, but with this change it will start to make sense in rare situations. 3. It will increase the use of small units with spears in PvE (among newbies and players with small collections). 4. It is applicable in the early stages of the campaign (almost every map of the Lyrish Reaches.). So players will be introduced to this mechanic early on. Additionally you could add a hint about this mechanic for one of this maps. 5. It will globally improve the depth of game mechanics. For example in this picture, if the Grinder were an enemy and this change were implemented, then Imperials and Ghostspears could attack it. What do you think? 4esan4o95, Hrdina_Imperia and Metagross31 like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrdina_Imperia Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Interesting idea. I personally kinda like it, though I'm not sure about balance. The biggest issue would most likely be the technical side of things - or at least I think so. Someone who actually works with the inner workings of the game can probably answer you, sooner or later. Appollonir likes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubik Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 I doubt anyone can answer that before finishing and testing the implementation of it. Appollonir likes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Is Halloween_2 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Balance shouldn't be a problem for pvp, XL units are only met at T3, and walls are inconsistently present on maps. Furthermore, XL counter spear units are also rare. So situations in which you would have XL spear units on a wall vs XL units are almost non existent. Add to that the fact that most of the time if you're trying to defend a wall with small units vs XL ones it's because you're already in a losing position in the game, and I don't see that change being a problem. Of course, we would still need to test it. Appollonir likes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fimion Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) Why didnt you just show us an enemy Grinder attacking the wall? Why? Because it would look like this: If units with spears could attack XL units it wouldnt look more natural and dynamic at all they would just stab air while the XL units take damage. Why would an XL unit espacially one with an axe get so close to a wall that it could get stabbed to death by melee units? That makes no sense to me. Edited January 15 by Fimion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appollonir Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fimion said: If units with spears could attack XL units it wouldnt look more natural and dynamic at all they would just stab air while the XL units take damage. I agree that I didn't take that into account. Yes, he does stand further when he attacks. But you don't take into account that I meant "naturally and dynamically" in the context of the game. Have you seen how small melee units attack big ones without a wall? Even spearmen still miss the target most of the time. But it's close when a big unit performs a certain animation. (if the target is under the control effect, then spearmen attack the air 100% of the time). It's just how the game works in general. Regarding the big axe.... Have you tried rooting Grinder and attacking him with spearmen? He can't even fight back. After that, attacking from the wall will be even more consistent as a mechanic, considering that we already have a similar interaction, in which spearmen demonstrate a longer attack range. (Changing the attack range of some big units is a separate and more complex topic). So I think this idea will look fine in the context of the game. Edited January 15 by Appollonir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appollonir Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 (edited) Continuing this topic... If we take into account that small units are able to individually calculate the range, and if we can save this property for units on the wall, then we can get rid of the attack range situations, which will look stupid even in the context of the game. So, not all units of the squad will be able to attack the target. Perhaps the developers will be able to change the attack range and choose what works better (If that's even possible at all.). Edited January 15 by Appollonir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fimion Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) You got some good points but i still believe this would be a bad idea because it would probably take alot of time to implement such a mechanic and im sure nobody would make use of it then because even with Glaciation this wouldnt be a viable choice. On Bad Harvest expert at position 3 for example you have to defend your wall against 1 XL unit 2 L units and some S M and flying units. The only unit than can be attacked by units with spears would be the XL unit and only 1 maybe 1.5 squads could attack it even with red glaciation that wouldnt work well. And even if youd manage to kill the XL unit youd still need ranged units to kill the other units. I always thought it looked stupid how S melee units attack XL units and of course a rooted grinder should be able to attack spear wielding units but in my opinion it would look even more ridiculous if units armed with spears could attack XL units from walls. A solution to this could be to change the textures of all spear units and make their spears longer but like i said that would be a waste of time because nobody would make use of that new mechanic anyway. btw sry if my first post sounded a bit rude i had a pretty bad day Edited January 15 by Fimion Appollonir likes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Is Halloween_2 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 On balance, I gave my opinion. On coolness and consistency with what already exist in the game, I agree with Appollonir, there’s no reason not to do it. In term of usefulness and developer resources however, I agree with Fimion. The concept is cool, but essentially useless. And unfortunately in term of time to develop new stuff for the games, the team has much more important things to develop : new cards for amii and maybe even frost/fire, faction and cards rework, new maps, new game mode like tower defense, new content for late game replayability, new factions for rpve, … Its’s a cool concept, but low priority compared to the other demands of the community listed above. Hrdina_Imperia, WindHunter, Metagross31 and 1 other like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appollonir Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 16 hours ago, Fimion said: You got some good points but i still believe this would be a bad idea because it would probably take alot of time to implement such a mechanic and im sure nobody would make use of it then because even with Glaciation this wouldnt be a viable choice. I understand what you are saying and I agree that it is not worth it if it is technically difficult to implement. But if it can be done "at the push of a button", then devs can try it in test conditions and see how it looks and feels in practice. After that they can make a decision or make some adjustments. The main idea is not that this is a major balance change and everyone should use it. It's more about individual small situations for "non-professional" players. Like small details in games in general. I originally got this idea because I tried to put spearmen on a wall against a big unit, expecting them to be able to do something. But they couldn't. And at that moment it seemed unnatural and illogical that they couldn't attack from the wall. I was disappointed (it was a long time ago). So I think it would be fun even if it happened 0.01% of the time. But of course, if it looks bad or is hard to implement, it's not worth it. I agree that everything is not as simple as it seemed to me initially. Majora likes this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItzBlaze Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Interesting idea, but I think as some people may have mentioned the practicality of something like this may be questionable. In most situations that require walls you will place archers or something ranged because anything melee related will get absolutely grated by ranged units. However... Something like this could be accompanied with some balancing which would allow XL units to do some form of damage to units on the wall whilst they are attacking it, logically this would make sense I mean look at the size of an XL unit, they are bigger than the wall and with each swing some form of damage (even if it is reduced) should be done to any units placed on the wall. This could actually encourage more players to use melee units on walls to counter XL units, just my thoughts on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocofang Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 It's really cool thematically. But under which circumstances would you prefer it over ranged units that can attack everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appollonir Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 On 1/18/2025 at 8:37 PM, Cocofang said: It's really cool thematically. But under which circumstances would you prefer it over ranged units that can attack everything? Thank you. The first time I got this idea was when I had several spear units already summoned before I knew I had to defend the wall. As I said above, this change is more casual/newbie oriented (and not worth it if it's a lot of work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metagross31 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 On 1/18/2025 at 5:37 PM, Cocofang said: It's really cool thematically. But under which circumstances would you prefer it over ranged units that can attack everything? Maybe burning spears in XL mode? Would make sense, since pure fire has no T2 archers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fimion Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 7 hours ago, Metagross31 said: Maybe burning spears in XL mode? Would make sense, since pure fire has no T2 archers. Without Glaciation that wouldnt work the wall would get destroyed before Burning Spears could do any real damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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