Unexpected Visitors

[UltDragon]

Leave here your feedback and opinions on the campaign map Unexpected Visitors, released on Patch #400048 - 21 September 2024.

[shaulani]

To my opinion, it's poorly balanced right now. Let me try to reason (talking about advanced difficulty):

Usually, you can beat most / any map on advanced with bad decks while making plenty mistakes. The new map does not feel like it. I've read people saying it requires enlightenment (which is probably not the case), I've lost games, because my mate decided to spent all his resources on t2 towers in the base, which do absolutely nothing. I've found 2 extra orbs after the shared t2 orbs in 4-5 games. I still don't know if there are 2 more or if that's all we got.

If you want to keep it this way, add a standard difficulty. Give us the possibility to explore the map in a safe environment. It shouldn't be that hard to implement a standard difficulty. Just increase the timers between the nights and exchange some units to weaker ones or simply remove some units.

If you want to adjust it to be more in line with the default difficulties, decrease the pacing a little bit.

 

The original maps were all beatable on expert with non-upgraded decks of the 40 free-to-play cards. Try beating this map on advanced/expert with these 40 unupgraded cards (though unupgraded cards were even buffed in this game, as they got 50% extra charges).

 

You are welcome to disagree and to clear this map with pure-color-decks the original f2p deck, solo and whatever you can think of. It's just my opinion and you are welcome to disagree.

[Majora]

Are you aware that in Unexpected Visitors you can use the teleporter to clean the second camp, which rewards you with monuments in your base to go tier 3? 

As for this:
The original maps were all beatable on expert with non-upgraded decks of the 40 free-to-play cards. Try beating this map on advanced/expert with these 40 unupgraded cards (though unupgraded cards were even buffed in this game, as they got 50% extra charges).

Please remember the original maps are 15 years old, and these new maps are not even out for 24 hours. Im fairly sure no one was completing Blight Expert on day 1 with a non-upgraded deck. Regardless, we are tracking player feedback and if needed will adjust.   

 

[shaulani]

15 minutes ago, Majora said:

Are you aware that in Unexpected Visitors you can use the teleporter to clean the second camp, which rewards you with monuments in your base to go tier 3? 

My most successful run (5 seconds missing -.-) was: Clear t2, clear the war eagles and mountainer (why do they shoot vs air?!) on the left side, then proceed in direction north. I was rushing a werebeast through to build mok to defend the north wall. We defended the south wall together. Afterwards, we cleared the monument under the shrine just east of our base. With t3 we warded off the next wave together and then proceeded north. There was an orb on the right side. Do you mean this one? I think my mate used the teleporter and got into the base that was sealed by a barrier, which then disappeared. Well, we continued north, cleared all objectives and after the last one, my thornbarks sadly died vs that living shadow artillery (necro...). We swapped orbs, my mate went t4 and cleared the east side too. Finally, the last wave came and we died, because I couldn't defend with t1 and he wasn't able to hold with t4. To be honest, I expected the mission to end after killing the last objective. Retraiting the thornbarks before engaging the shadow artillery would have won us the game probably. But you are always smarter after failing.

 

I know that there are some wells in the east. But these are guarded by frost tempests. Making it hard to achieve anything there without t3. The constant attacks make it even harder to focus on exploring.

 

To give you a balance idea: The easiest difficulty is always beatable using nothing but the tutorial deck. And I don't see that right now for that map. But if there are some hidden orbs, I didn't spot, it might be different.

 

PS: could you rename the title to Unexpected Visitors?

Edited September 22 by shaulani

[Majora]

2 minutes ago, shaulani said:

My most successful run (5 seconds missing -.-) was: Clear t2, clear the war eagles and mountainer (why do they shoot vs air?!) on the left side, then proceed in direction north. I was rushing a werebeast through to build mok to defend the north wall. We defended the south wall together. Afterwards, we cleared the monument under the shrine just east of our base. With t3 we warded off the next wave together and then proceeded north. There was an orb on the right side. Do you mean this one? I think my mate used the teleporter and got into the base that was sealed by a barrier, which then disappeared. Well, we continued north, cleared all objectives and after the last one, my thornbarks sadly died vs that living shadow artillery (necro...). We swapped orbs, my mate went t4 and cleared the east side too. Finally, the last wave came and we died, because I couldn't defend with t1 and he wasn't able to hold with t4. To be honest, I expected the mission to end after killing the last objective. Retraiting the thornbarks before engaging the shadow artillery would have won us the game probably. But you are always smarter after failing.

 

I know that there are some wells in the east. But these are guarded by frost tempests. Making it hard to achieve anything there without t3. The constant attacks make it even harder to focus on exploring.

 

To give you a balance idea: The easiest difficulty is always beatable using nothing but the tutorial deck. And I don't see that right now for that map. But if there are some hidden orbs, I didn't spot, it might be different.

 

PS: could you rename the title to Unexpected Visitors?

Not sure if we are talking about the same thing. After you reach the amii city, you have a big portal in the middle. After defending the first night wave, it allows you to activate the control nodes next to it to warp some units to the right. Move north from there, and cleaning the camp will deactive the Amii gate. Once you have done so, the Amii monuments in your main city are now buildable, meaning you can both go tier 3*. With tier 3, one of you should be able to get the Monument outside of your base on the east. 

*Be careful that you now also have to defend the small base up north, or you lose your amii monuments again.

 

[Cocofang]

I think it is fine for Adv to be somewhat comparable to some cPvE Exp maps in difficulty. The game lacks challenging maps for veterans. But I would be in favor of adding a Std difficulty by simply swapping some LS and frost units for weaker ones and removing some from the attack waves. No special adjustments, just changes to units.

[shaulani]

Well, I played it again. I was looking in the northern base for the monument, didn't see anything. Suddenly, my mate built strongholds. I was wondering how on t2.. So I continued searching. Until I finally spotted the t3 monument. That monuments make the mission much easier. However, they are very easy to miss. Maybe add an optional objective "Rebuild the amii monuments" pointing to the amii monuments?

To be clear - I was looking for orbs and not amii monuments. Which should not give an extra tier after the latest patch though.

 

Try playing without these monuments - it's certainly beatable. But much harder. Especially if you lose your t3 units vs these lost soul necro artilleries.

Edited September 22 by shaulani

[Metagross31]

1 hour ago, shaulani said:

To be clear - I was looking for orbs and not amii monuments. Which should not give an extra tier after the latest patch though.

The Amii monuments on the map function like the pre-nerf player card, i.e. they give you access to T3.

[DefAnske]

I can see how this map seems pretty unbalanced on first sight, since the pure amount of units is just huge.
But the map has a lot of mechanics that can be overseen very easily, like the amii orbs, or even the dreadnought you can get for free for saving the winterwitch in the eastern frost base.
I remember how people struggled (or still do) with dwarfenriddle, before they knew how the crystals work. The waves there are getting completly unbalanced and overwhelming too.
Just give it some time before adjusting to much. Not every map has to be beaten on first try without knowing anything about it, not even on advanced.

[This Is Halloween_2]

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To be clear - I was looking for orbs and not amii monuments. Which should not give an extra tier after the latest patch though.

Probably the biggest problem with this map. That functionality is going to be unclear for new/average players.

Some text could be added in the obj box (top righ) to makes things clearer. And the monuments should be indicated on the mini-map.

[Jodekoek]

From a speedrun perspective:

I initially though this map would be about destroying the banestones as soon as possible. Intead, it seems it is about getting to the A area (where the 32 min portal charge trigger starts) as soon as possible and then taking your time to build up and destroy the banestones.

I personally would prefer instead that the portal charge starts immediately and the banestones have a 'diminishing return' effect from the beginning; meaning that at the start they, for example, reduce the portal charge by 3 min and gradually (dwindling with every minute) provide less reduction to the portal charge as time goes by. This would make the highscores also more dynamic. Now the maximum achievable is a 24 min run and soon the hiscores will be flooded with that in 2p and before long in solo too, though solo is a bit trickier.

 

I think being motivated to destroy the banestones as soon as possible along with figuring out creative ways to defend, AND at the same time build up power is more interesting for speedrunning. Personally, I don't like the speedrunning as much when it is so universally capped. (in this case at 24 min)

Edited Monday at 07:58 PM by Jodekoek

[Jodekoek]

I played this map a ton already. I really enjoy the high level of diversity. There are three major ways to get your third orb, and each has its up and down sides. Figuring out which one works best is still something I am wondering about, and this keeps me thinking about different tactics to tackle the different paths to take to reach the finish line. I think that that is the essence of this game: crafting decks and contemplating how to tackle the map. So, really good job!

What also deserves a special mention is the different mechanics: defending the north to get access to an orb but at the cost of having to keep defending that northern base, the dreadnought side-option, the banestone time factor, the proximal t3 orb in the center that is so close within reach but such a nightmare to clear as it is so surrounded by camps, the increasing wave strength. You can even play this map defending the western base only once or perhaps not at all (defending elsewhere). So many goodies! This complexity can be overdone but it is just the right amount.

Voice acting I like it too, well done for sure.

 

Cheers

 

Edited October 1 by Jodekoek

[Kapo]

All in all, the map seems really well-made, and fun to play. Here are still some points that caught my attention:

- The War Eagle guarding the two towers near T2 gets very, very often stuck at the tower for a moment when attacking. Maybe there is something up with the ice crystal model?
- I would give more space at the "outer" path connecting the P1/P2 start position, so people can avoid the towers and eagle to meet up without getting smacked; maybe a nice ice lake or something. It's no benefit for speedrunners, and more casual players could team up before they attack. There is that one spot west of the western Frost Crystal that is unnecessary tight
- The trigger point for the new script phase should be where the gate is, or the gate put farther back - that gate kinda serves no purpose, and it would be a cool "finish" line for that part
- The Mountaineer shooting over the edge at ground units near that trigger point feels off, maybe his path can be changed a little, since he guards the well and not the path (right?)
- The double-wells after the T2 are really heavily guarded... too heavy? Maybe they are ment to be taken later?
- The cooldown for the teleport from the city to the enclave is ultra long (on purpose?); if a unit misses the teleport, all you can do is destroy it
- The Vigils that attack you after teleporting feel kinda off/unfair
- The enclave is kinda tight with space - which is alright, but the placement of the kobold laboratory makes it even worse. Maybe put it a little more to the left side, and also the central construction hut a bit more to the right to not punish players so hard who want to build a Howling Shrine or something (otherwise Necroblaster stays prime forever)
- The attacks at the enclave could be more themed, like mostly-flyers or something
- The Hulks are a mystery, sometimes they directly go for the walls, sometimes they can be distracted. Maybe there is something I dont understand yet, but I think the coolest option would be if they beeline for the walls no matter what, and after their charge they do whatever normal units do. 
- The Winter Witch feels too deep in, considering that you always have to walk back too
- The Archfiend in the middle (at the orb) is very trigger-happy due to the patrols; he should be guarding the orb and not help defending the paths 
- Not sure if the most eastern Banestone is intentionally that far in, there is such a big gap between the Tower/2-Vigil and the camp with the Banestone that feels unnatural. Alternatively, if you dont want to move it forward, if you change the path from the center (archfiend-orb) leading south a bit more curved to the east it would lead to a more natural route from the enclave to the last banestone, possibly skipping the tower/2-vigil position if you are careful
- The off-map Amii keep/temple between P1 and P2 start position is cute, but floating weirdly on the ice, the edges might need some more map art details
- Can you put some decorative units (Amii civilians?) that run from buildings or wait for the final port to teleport away when the map is won? That would be a nice touch

Edited October 1 by Kapo

[Jodekoek]

1 hour ago, Kapo said:

- The Vigils that attack you after teleporting feel kinda off/unfair
 

+1 on this one

[This Is Halloween_2]

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 The double-wells after the T2 are really heavily guarded... too heavy? Maybe they are ment to be taken later?

I think it's too much defended. Players are on a timer to reach the amii position, so these wells are more often than not skipped. Furthermore, if people have some time to spare on the southern part of the map at T2, they go toward the 1st well near the frost avatar. It allows to spawn unit there and attack the orb faster.

Given the choice between the 2 if there's the time, people will prefer to avoid these 2 wells because of the difficulty & the fact that they don't allow forward positions to take other positions of the map during the day. Only reason to ever go there is to steal the eagles with nighguard for later.

Probably 1 eagle should be removed.

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The cooldown for the teleport from the city to the enclave is ultra long (on purpose?); if a unit misses the teleport, all you can do is destroy it

More a quality of life improvement, not a necessity, but agreed.

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- The Vigils that attack you after teleporting feel kinda off/unfair

+1 too. They could be placed a bit farther to avoid that.

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- The enclave is kinda tight with space - which is alright, but the placement of the kobold laboratory makes it even worse. Maybe put it a little more to the left side, and also the central construction hut a bit more to the right to not punish players so hard who want to build a Howling Shrine or something (otherwise Necroblaster stays prime forever)

+1. Necro-tower will stay meta on this spot if it's not slightly moved.

I think moving it in front of the 2nd hut acroos the road would be perfect.

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- The Winter Witch feels too deep in, considering that you always have to walk back too

+1. I also find the reward ... underwhelming. I'm not convinced the dreadnought currently given is a good enough incentive. Maybe making him a bit stronger by increasing the stats (7000/7000 or 6000/8000) or give him an autocast shield ability like winter witch ?

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- The Archfiend in the middle (at the orb) is very trigger-happy due to the patrols; he should be guarding the orb and not help defending the paths 

+1

Lost warlord cost seems to be more than 250. Maybe we should make it 250 (or mindweaver 275) to allow mindweaver strategies to work on that map (tower isn’t popular, maybe help it a bit with that map like your clearly doing it with night guard).

The last change (but more radical) I would propose is to invert the summoning location of wave 2 & wave 4 of the trio of lost priest boss. It feels more natural moving out of the teleporter & clearing in front of it for T3, & then going down a bit where wave 4 priest go. Currently I'm under the impression that I need a dedicated kill team for them, or needs to clear most of the middle before the second night after going through the tp, or that I need to move back the army from the tp location toward the second gate of the main amii fortress, go through the street with it, then launch an attack from the 1st gate toward middle.

This change would also allow people to move toward some of the northern lost stone , & 1 of the player T4.

Or, if this change creates other problems, to allow to tp our troops back to the city, making the tp a 2 way system. This would also allow to go up after saving the outpost, rather than being forced to go down.

 

Oh and there’s a bug with the lost archers, they tend to become immortal when they reach 2hp with 2 squad members remaining that can’t be killed. Saw that with swamp drakes. However aoe cone attacks (frost mage) don’t seem to have this problem vs the archers.

Edited October 2 by This Is Halloween_2

[toxicitzi]

I like the idea of what the map is doing, switching from attacking during the night to advancing during the day and moving defenses to that LS camp after you build that big wall, this is a novel and interesting idea on a defense map, but isn't it kinda bizarre that this map's Advanced difficulty is as hard as some of the top hardest maps on Expert difficulty? because it sure felt as hard as those for me.. It seems like a mix of Dwarven Riddle and Guns of Lyr with the strong early units and insane waves to defend, but with some pretty limited power with wells that take surviving multiple nights to acquire them.

 

 

 

 

 

[shaulani]

Mountainers shooting vs air feel unfair too. They should have the same restrictions as playable ones. Just pick a different unit if you want them to shot vs air.