The PvP-Balancing Wish/Whine-List

[Anonymos]

the only thing i woul complain about is the ng / nasty interaction(bug)

[Eirias]

Ok guys, one last question here again ^^ .. I went through the thread and somehow i'd like to hear some opinions about Stormsinger. I recall that some people thought the buff of stormsinger made her too strong and somehow i can understand this point of view (though i was happy about the buff as fire/frost player). What do you think about this folks?

 

At the moment my list of further discusable things would be:

T1: Tree Spirits OP, Phasetower slightly OP and Mortar slightly OP

T2: Bandits UP, Stormsinger slightly OP (?)

T3: Shield Building OP, Timeless One Ability OP

+ ALL BUGFIXES

If mortar and phasetower are OP, then wintertide is too.....

Personally I think all the t1 is balanced with tree spirits maybe being slightly OP, but not enough to nerf. Probably on the same level as mountaineer. Shield building and timeless one are perhaps too strong, I'll agree there. And I guess bandits are UP, but that's sort of the nature of the faction....and it's quite strong in 2v2: a buff to bandits for 1v1s would make it one of the strongest 2v2 factions, I think.

[SunWu]

If mortar and phasetower are OP, then wintertide is too.....

Personally I think all the t1 is balanced with tree spirits maybe being slightly OP, but not enough to nerf. Probably on the same level as mountaineer. Shield building and timeless one are perhaps too strong, I'll agree there. And I guess bandits are UP, but that's sort of the nature of the faction....and it's quite strong in 2v2: a buff to bandits for 1v1s would make it one of the strongest 2v2 factions, I think.

It was my perception that mortar and phasetower were slightly too strong. When i write slightly i mean that they're maybe ripe for a ~50dmg or hp nerf or maybe lenghthen phasetowers postport vulnerability slightly, Nothin major really, but something that could help certain decks in certain situations a little bit to even the chances. And nothing that would make those cards useless. Seeing it that way i don't understand this: ,,tree spirits maybe being slightly OP, but not enough to nerf'' When they're slightly OP why not a slight nerf ? The better balance gets, the tinier the needed nerfs/buffs get, i think.

,,And I guess bandits are UP, but that's sort of the nature of the faction....and it's quite strong in 2v2: a buff to bandits for 1v1s would make it one of the strongest 2v2 factions, I think.''

Bandits nature is being UP ? XD I lived with the illusion that it was risk and aggression ! I think evening the chances for bandits a little wouldn't hurt 2vs2 too much, as far as i remember pure fire+pure frost and pure fire+lost were everybodies favourites.

[Nachtalb]

actualy i forgot cliffdancing OP ... in my eyes Mortar is ok, since the last nerf, so maybe it doesn't have to be on the list... Phasetower is clearly too strong vs Nature T1 and Treespirits are clearly broken (even Aragorn says they should be reworked...), imho.... I think it is clear for everybody that we are talking about slight nerfs and that the balance overall was quite ok.

 

[Eirias]

It was my perception that mortar and phasetower were slightly too strong. When i write slightly i mean that they're maybe ripe for a ~50dmg or hp nerf or maybe lenghthen phasetowers postport vulnerability slightly, Nothin major really, but something that could help certain decks in certain situations a little bit to even the chances. And nothing that would make those cards useless. Seeing it that way i don't understand this: ,,tree spirits maybe being slightly OP, but not enough to nerf'' When they're slightly OP why not a slight nerf ? The better balance gets, the tinier the needed nerfs/buffs get, i think.

,,And I guess bandits are UP, but that's sort of the nature of the faction....and it's quite strong in 2v2: a buff to bandits for 1v1s would make it one of the strongest 2v2 factions, I think.''

Bandits nature is being UP ? XD I lived with the illusion that it was risk and aggression ! I think evening the chances for bandits a little wouldn't hurt 2vs2 too much, as far as i remember pure fire+pure frost and pure fire+lost were everybodies favourites.

I mean, the idea of being so risky and aggressive is itself UP (or broken). That's why we have such trouble balancing firedancers--where is the line between making pure fire UP and broken? I think similar buffs to bandits could make them broken.

For treespirits, I mean they might be slightly OP but other things should be reworked first. Like, it's not a high priority because losing a bit of health or damage typically won't affect much.

[Morathyls]

I would wish to rebalance Uro and Haladur maps to not be so disfavourable for Frost T1, due to being prone to T1 Swift attacks and loosing the middle in Haladur.

Also wasn't Homesoil nerfed? I can't remember.. I see it being 55% on BFwiki, think that was pre-nerf. Just undo the nerf that was made in the last year.

[DuellLord]

the only thing i woul complain about is the ng / nasty interaction(bug)

Is it really a bug? Because it depends on the animation time (time from activating/"clicking" until the real overtaking/explosion), so i think this effect is logic.

And it needs some skill/reaction to time this in a way that it works every time, if not it can mean a huge disadvantage for this one who nastied. So i think the nasty-ng effect is no balance problem at all, because there are other ways to counter a reaver efficiently especially with pure shadow (i played pure shadow without ng and had never any problems). And to nasty  mounty is not clever in most cases because it costs too much energy.

[Hirooo]

 

At the moment my list of further discusable things would be:

T1: Tree Spirits OP, Phasetower slightly OP and Mortar slightly OP

T2: Bandits UP, Stormsinger slightly OP (?)

T3: Shield Building OP, Timeless One Ability OP

+ ALL BUGFIXES

Nature t1 is fine in every match up with out treespirits but a mirror where the card is a free win. The one point where nature would need help is against magespam and thats sadly treespirits only weakness.

A single t1 card being able to block every kind of aggression in the form of micro intensive t1 fights without clear winners is not healthy for the game.

But we had the treespirits discussion already if I remember correctly.

 

Phasetower and mortar are necessary to defend when the energylevel rises. What could be a fair change here would be to increase the amout of damage a phasetower takes after being ported and/or the duration. This would make it easier to attack when you can force a port and easier to defend when the phasetower was build nearby to siege.

For mortartower I dont see a reason at all. The card has no offensive use as long as we arent well to well and there are way stronger well to well colors than fire.

The card can be outmaneuvered on some maps if used defensively. Its not usable for cliffing since you require a ground presence to trigger the ability(there are one or two spots where this is slightly abuse able but this wasnt really done so far). You can doge the damage when attacking in small numbers so the card is great for defending at the point where its needed. Massive unitamounts by rising powerlevel.

 

Concerning the topic of bandits in 2n2.. Bandits got viable because the cc and protection it needed came from another player. The offense it has is not stronger than fire nature or pure fire. There is no huge combopotential in a splitt DA + Nc attack. Homesoiled firedancers or root wildfire for example are on a different level than that disenchant aoc root you get.

I dont see any reason to assume buffing the bandits t2 for 1n1 should make this deck suddenly broken for 2n2. But this all depends on the change and we did not talk about any exact change so far.

 

I am not sure about stormsinger. The buff made it a core unit in every single frostsplash and thats kinda scarry. But buffing fire frost is fine. Pure frost is probably hitten harder by the fact that opponents now have more ways to deal with air and had a great m conter already. Stonekin profits alot tbh since air was a bit of a problem. 

Shadow frost can use stormsinger but it does not buff the fraction as much as fire frost or stonekin.

So ye might be a bit on the strong side but the aspects that are buffed seem fine to me.

 

Shield building gives non frost splashs the t3 option for building protection. Since the normal lack of those frostsplahs have an edge in t3 so I am against weaking this card or even adding orbs to its requirement. 

 

Timeless one is still overpowered. Should get nerfed. Probably increase the cost of timeless one by 15 or something along those lines.

 

 

So some other topics:

Juggernaut is a key card for pure fire but being able to one shot 3 wells is a bit over the top.

Thats the kind of basenuke the game got rid of by changing tremor nasty soulshatter etc.

Reduce the damage of stampede. Reduce its cooldown too and its energycost. Make jugger a big thread but none that can demolish the game in 1 second.

This allows non frostsplahs to have a shot at defending a Xl unit that can not be cc'd most of the time.

 

Dryad (blue) should only affect the units of one player.

Just like SoM was poorly balanced for 2n2 the dryad aura effecting both players allows the strongest t1 in the game to force every other combination into t2 or mortarspam.

Dryad + Noxspamm with heals/shamans supported by hurricane and root is ridicules. 

So reducing the damage reduction this combination offers might make it possible to play a decent t1 against shadow nature.

 

[RadicalX]

If mortar and phasetower are OP, then wintertide is too.....

Please don't even mention wintertide in this thread. Pretty much one of the most overrated cards by a majority of the community.

Phasetower and mortar are necessary to defend when the energylevel rises. What could be a fair change here would be to increase the amout of damage a phasetower takes after being ported and/or the duration. This would make it easier to attack when you can force a port and easier to defend when the phasetower was build nearby to siege.

Disagree with that one. If you remember our sparring matches on Elyon - this wont solve the Problem. You can take a well, build a phasetower & defend against nature, since the nature player can't use a swift unit against shadow (otherwise you get smashed by nox spam). You will lose mapcontrol against shadow every game, because the splash damage is massive & the stat efficency of phasetower is insane. The correct way to nerf it is a damage decrease, because this allows nature to punish the shadow player for taking a power well without an advantage and aside from that it creates a little bit more counterplay because it gets easier to save your units against the splash damage which increases the heal efficency.

 

Nature t1 is fine in every match up with out treespirits but a mirror where the card is a free win. The one point where nature would need help is against magespam and thats sadly treespirits only weakness.

A single t1 card being able to block every kind of aggression in the form of micro intensive t1 fights without clear winners is not healthy for the game.

But we had the treespirits discussion already if I remember correctly.

For mortartower I dont see a reason at all. The card has no offensive use as long as we arent well to well and there are way stronger well to well colors than fire.

The card can be outmaneuvered on some maps if used defensively. Its not usable for cliffing since you require a ground presence to trigger the ability(there are one or two spots where this is slightly abuse able but this wasnt really done so far). You can doge the damage when attacking in small numbers so the card is great for defending at the point where its needed. Massive unitamounts by rising powerlevel.

 

Concerning the topic of bandits in 2n2.. Bandits got viable because the cc and protection it needed came from another player. The offense it has is not stronger than fire nature or pure fire. There is no huge combopotential in a splitt DA + Nc attack. Homesoiled firedancers or root wildfire for example are on a different level than that disenchant aoc root you get.

I dont see any reason to assume buffing the bandits t2 for 1n1 should make this deck suddenly broken for 2n2. But this all depends on the change and we did not talk about any exact change so far.

 

I am not sure about stormsinger. The buff made it a core unit in every single frostsplash and thats kinda scarry. But buffing fire frost is fine. Pure frost is probably hitten harder by the fact that opponents now have more ways to deal with air and had a great m conter already. Stonekin profits alot tbh since air was a bit of a problem. 

Shadow frost can use stormsinger but it does not buff the fraction as much as fire frost or stonekin.

So ye might be a bit on the strong side but the aspects that are buffed seem fine to me.

 

Shield building gives non frost splashs the t3 option for building protection. Since the normal lack of those frostsplahs have an edge in t3 so I am against weaking this card or even adding orbs to its requirement. 

 

Timeless one is still overpowered. Should get nerfed. Probably increase the cost of timeless one by 15 or something along those lines.

 

So some other topics:

Juggernaut is a key card for pure fire but being able to one shot 3 wells is a bit over the top.

Thats the kind of basenuke the game got rid of by changing tremor nasty soulshatter etc.

Reduce the damage of stampede. Reduce its cooldown too and its energycost. Make jugger a big thread but none that can demolish the game in 1 second.

This allows non frostsplahs to have a shot at defending a Xl unit that can not be cc'd most of the time.

 

Dryad (blue) should only affect the units of one player.

Just like SoM was poorly balanced for 2n2 the dryad aura effecting both players allows the strongest t1 in the game to force every other combination into t2 or mortarspam.

Dryad + Noxspamm with heals/shamans supported by hurricane and root is ridicules. 

So reducing the damage reduction this combination offers might make it possible to play a decent t1 against shadow nature.

+1 seems very accurate

I would wish to rebalance Uro and Haladur maps to not be so disfavourable for Frost T1, due to being prone to T1 Swift attacks and loosing the middle in Haladur.

Also wasn't Homesoil nerfed? I can't remember.. I see it being 55% on BFwiki, think that was pre-nerf. Just undo the nerf that was made in the last year.

I don't think homesoil got nerfed at some point. But I agree with the fact, that some maps were very bad for Frost T1, because you lost map control against fire and shadow T1. Generated maps, Elyon & Uro were problematic (I don't think Haladur was a big issue btw. Everything's fine as long as you know how to defend against dreadcharger-/scavyspam, because the power wells in the middle are pretty close to eachother which favours frost T1).

On the other side maps like Yrmia existed, which gave you such a big advantage since it's a really small map with alot of closewell positions (pure frost on yrmia was such a safe win for tournaments against pure fire player, even against the best ones). I admit frost was not as reliable as other colours because it had no swift unit, but I don't think Frost was a weaker T1 than fire or shadow. This is why I suggest against any Frost T1 buffs.

Best regards

Radi

 

[Eirias]

 

Please don't even mention wintertide in this thread. Pretty much one of the most overrated cards by a majority of the community.

 

Really? I always thought it was underrated.

My point was not actually that it was OP, only that fire has a hard time dealing with it without mortar tower (and I'd assume the same thing for shadow/phase tower, and nature/treespirits). Basically I was saying "don't nerf mortar"

[Nachtalb]

Shield building gives non frost splashs the t3 option for building protection. Since the normal lack of those frostsplahs have an edge in t3 so I am against weaking this card or even adding orbs to its requirement. 

hmm... the Problem with Shield Building as far as i see it, is not that it is OP in Non-Frost-Splashs, but its gettin OP in Frost-Splashs in combination with the other Buildingprotects. So imo it should be part of that diminishing effect of Glacier-Shell/Kobold Trick as well, or some workaround on that base... concerning stormsinger: I  think the buff was slightly over the top and the ability should be a little bit more expensive.

 

T1: Treespirits (!) OP (need rework), Phasetower slightly OP, Dryad (!) (blue) OP in 2vs2, passive shouldn't work for both Players

T2: Bandits (!) UP, Firedancer (!) cliffdancing OP, should reduce dmg-output, Stormsinger discusable, maybe slightly too strong

T3: Timeless One (!) OP, Juggernaut Base Nuke OP, Shield Building discusable

+ Bugfixes

 

Just refreshing my subjective List of discusable Balancing-Inssues here on base of the thread and others and the discussion. Ah yeah and i tried out this nice colours

 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Nachtalb

[ImperatorSK]

hmm... the Problem with Shield Building as far as i see it, is not that it is OP in Non-Frost-Splashs, but its gettin OP in Frost-Splashs in combination with the other Buildingprotects. So imo it should be part of that diminishing effect of Glacier-Shell/Kobold Trick as well, or some workaround on that base... concerning stormsinger: I  think the buff was slightly over the top and the ability should be a little bit more expensive.

 

T1: Treespirits (!) OP (need rework), Phasetower slightly OP, Dryad (!) (blue) OP in 2vs2, passive shouldn't work for both Players

T2: Bandits (!) UP, Firedancer (!) cliffdancing OP, should reduce dmg-output, Stormsinger discusable, maybe slightly too strong

T3: Timeless One (!) OP, Juggernaut Base Nuke OP, Shield Building discusable

+ Bugfixes

 

Just refreshing my subjective List of discusable Balancing-Inssues here on base of the thread and others and the discussion. Ah yeah and i tried out this nice colours

 

I didnt saw any reason why stormsinger should be to strong, i think the buff of this card was good, cause each fraction has after that a possibility to counter air  Units efficienty. The damage of this card is fine, and can be only considered next to other M-Units cause it is range and so you can splitt efficient against CC, but its not strong enough to replace other M-Counter. The ability can be annoying for Pure Frost cause well played the air superiority of Pure Frost can be outplayed easier, and against Fire/Frost Shielded Dragons can be countered better (but cause each good Fire/Frost or Pure Frost player place them over cliffs its pointless)

The rest is okish on the list, i dont like the Phasetower on the list cause since Thug buff its hard for Shadow to fight 1vs1 efficient against fire, but without the Phasetower also the fight against Nature and Frost would be alot harder and i think slighly better for the Nature or Frost fraction (but i understand why that player want him nerfed a bit, cause i played each fraction and with Nature and Frost you need alot more micro than the Phasetower spammer to counter him). 

Dryad (blue) is clearly overpowered in 2vs2, i abuse this alot with Mates in 2vs2 (that sometimes werent close to top 200, so missing understanding of pvp) and we won alot against strong enemys without the need of any skill, so maybe reduce the reduction for your mate in 2vs2, i wouldnt return the reduction fully cause it was a nice extra for Nature T1 player, without it Nature would be alot rarer in 2vs2.