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The PvP-Balancing Wish/Whine-List


Nachtalb

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I would say this is the main reason Tree Spirit is so op, guess which "Heir of Isildur" never wins t1(but very rarely loses because of Tree Spirit Spam) or t2, just waits to t3 and then uses Brannoc with shadow t3(all them heals, cc and buffs with most op t3 unit, he has like 4-5 cards t3) in all high ranked games he ever won. And one more thing because this "Heir of Isildur" likes to say how he micros a lot and has 5 card t1, when u count t1 cards u should only count units, because units are only used in t1 and never after, while spells are used all game long, especially nature t1 spells, any other faction must have more t1 units to be viable and this alone gives unfair advantage in t2 and t3, because all your t1 units are just wasted slots in t2 or t3. For example when u play fire/nature u have many nature t1 spells in your deck for your t2 but u never use Scavenger, Thugs or Sunstriders after your t2 is up, etc. There are some units and situations when you do use t1 units after t2 but they are vary rare and im talking in general. Then there is 0 micro braindead turtle t1 play style. This card should be removed from the game or reworked completely.

You will have to excuse me on this one, but no.  Nature is one of if not the only faction that uses their T1 Units and Spells in T2 and T3.  I am sorry, but I can not tell you how many times nature players drop Shammy or Dryad (Green or Blue) in T2 and T3.  In root decks TS's are used as a support unit and a very needed one to make that type of deck more viable, a buff to spikey would not hurt either.  But your claim that T1 units are not used is bogus I am sorry but they are used often especially in nature. 

Furthermore, I ask again, if TS's are so Godly in the game, why was the game not flooded with Nature players who played T1?  Even the most common stonekin, and twilight players started with the opposite color's T1.  And once again if you see someone spamming tree's, feel free to take a free well, and hope the player is stupid enough to attack.  When he does hide behind the well. 

 

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You will have to excuse me on this one, but no.  Nature is one of if not the only faction that uses their T1 Units and Spells in T2 and T3.  I am sorry, but I can not tell you how many times nature players drop Shammy or Dryad (Green or Blue) in T2 and T3.  In root decks TS's are used as a support unit and a very needed one to make that type of deck more viable, a buff to spikey would not hurt either.  But your claim that T1 units are not used is bogus I am sorry but they are used often especially in nature. 

Furthermore, I ask again, if TS's are so Godly in the game, why was the game not flooded with Nature players who played T1?  Even the most common stonekin, and twilight players started with the opposite color's T1.  And once again if you see someone spamming tree's, feel free to take a free well, and hope the player is stupid enough to attack.  When he does hide behind the well. 

 

I think he wasn't talking about the typical oldschool natureplayer here, but more about the ,,Aragorn special'' wich comes with only two T1 units, including amazon wich is still useful in T2.

While shadow (swift,forsaken+nox), fire (sunstriders,scavy) and frost (MAs, IGs) in their minimal state have to bring at least two T1 units wich arent T2 worthy, he has to include only one. So Frozenripper somehow has a point here. As someone who mostly played without phasetower and mortar i can tell you it can be annoying playing against this type of deck (actually quite a lot of mid-high gold ranked players played this in the end). It always felt hard to get a siginficant advantage against those stonekin players to stop them from playing out their big T3. I guess there were several tactics to beat this strategy, still i also come to the conclusion that the deckslot advantage + the points RadicalX, Anonymos and others mentioned show that trees can hurt the game if they are not used like you or beijjingguy used to (never saw him spaming them, maybe he did in nature mirrors,i don't know).

Sorry Nachtalb, for every arguing post here, i will compensate with a green rep for you somewhere else ! :cookie:

Edited by SunWu II.
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@FrozenRipper I use amazon and ts in t2, especially amazon. Not counting spell is your own point of view. Fact I Play the same amount of t1 of a normal shadow deck (Dreadcharger, forsaken, nox, nasty, life weaving). I play to win, t1 is skippable and it's how they made the game and I won't change my style to the very restricted meta deck. I win most match with a t2 lead and then I finish in t3 you're just beeing salty and prefer to point op card instead to check about your own mistakes, so keep loosing to my deck or just copy me.

@SunWu II. I've heard that many mid gold ranked player did this. But I've nerver met any of them. Maybe it's easy to handle for a beginner but none of them could made green rank.

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@FrozenRipper I use amazon and ts in t2, especially amazon. Not counting spell is your own point of view. Fact I Play the same amount of t1 of a normal shadow deck (Dreadcharger, forsaken, nox, nasty, life weaving). I play to win, t1 is skippable and it's how they made the game and I won't change my style to the very restricted meta deck. I win most match with a t2 lead and then I finish in t3 you're just beeing salty and prefer to point op card instead to check about your own mistakes, so keep loosing to my deck or just copy me.

Shadow T1 includes motivate and mostlikely phasetower while liveweaving was not needed in most splashes.

 

Your point is that t1 is skippable and you play to win so you do it this way. But this discussion should not be about you.

It should be about the card that just like you said enables to play a tier 1 that forces your opponent to avoid all aggression.

Is that not as a statement enough reason to change treespirits?

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@Hirooo I was just defending myself of someone freely attacking me. I know it's not the subject of the thread. I said TS concept is bad and need a rework other than just stat change. I said a normal t1, not a large t1, not everyone play phase tower. Having a matchup that force opponent to avoid all agression and play another tier... I kinda don't like that too but sometime it's cards choice (not carrying phase tower and other counters...) that doesn't allow to make viable agression. But I don't think this is enough reason to change. Look at stonekin mirror or stonekin vs pure frost. It's mostly passive until t3 because the agressor is too much disadvantaged. I don't say it's impossible, but the defensor is more willing to win, get unit/power advantage after the fight, then win. So it just encourage people to be both passive until t3.

Edited by Aragorn
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You will have to excuse me on this one, but no.  Nature is one of if not the only faction that uses their T1 Units and Spells in T2 and T3.  I am sorry, but I can not tell you how many times nature players drop Shammy or Dryad (Green or Blue) in T2 and T3.  In root decks TS's are used as a support unit and a very needed one to make that type of deck more viable, a buff to spikey would not hurt either.  But your claim that T1 units are not used is bogus I am sorry but they are used often especially in nature. 

Furthermore, I ask again, if TS's are so Godly in the game, why was the game not flooded with Nature players who played T1?  Even the most common stonekin, and twilight players started with the opposite color's T1.  And once again if you see someone spamming tree's, feel free to take a free well, and hope the player is stupid enough to attack.  When he does hide behind the well. 

 

Shaman and Dryad are special cases and represent group of few t1 units that are used throughout the whole game, but lets look at all t1 units played in PvP at higher ranks.

Fire t1: Sunstriders, Scavenger, Thugs, Firesworn - only Firesworn is vary rarely used in t2 but u can definitely just use Gladiatrix as L counter so we can conclude that u have 3 or 4 dead slots in t2,t3

Nature t1: Swiftclaw, Shaman , Dryad, Windweavers, Spearman or Warebeasts, Amazon, Tree Spirit  - you can use Shaman and Dryad and maybe Amazon in 1 of 20 games, Tree Spirit i wont count because i never seen high ranked root PvP player, maybe some top naure players used it in a few games but that was not their main deck. So if u play typical nature t1 u have at least 3 dead slots in t2, t3

Shadow t1: Nox Trooper, Forsaken, Skeleton  Warriors, Wrathblades, Dreadcharger, Nightgurad - Only Nightgurad used in t2 so depending on your t1 choice u have atleast 3 or 4 deadslots in t1,t2

Frost t1: Ice Guradian, Master Archers, Frost Mage, Frost Sorceress, Imperials, Lightblade - Frost Mage can be used in t2, Frost Sorceress can have some use in t2, and i would say only Lightblade is really worth to use in t2, so again we have 3 or more dead slots in t2,t3

The Lord of the Rings t1: Trow one "Heir of Isildur" in 10 000 Uruk-Hai and break the siege of Helm's Deep

Now why Tree Spirit is not used by more high ranked players, simply because all higher ranked players are old players and already have their main decks with which they got to the top, and Amii Edition which brought us our beloved Tree Spirit was released late to a very small, old and dying player base, and that is why it only led to the rise in ranks of only one top 50 player who was frustrated with his ranked position and was not able to go to even in top 40 with any conventional deck. True high ranked players get advantage in t1 and u cannot do that with Tree Spirit, you skip t1 with Tree Spirit and win because of big ass t3. I do not mean to offend you and idk what you rank was, but your reasoning is really bad, they do not just spam trees, they take a well and if u try to attack they spam trees on that well and they are able to def with 100 less power, if i take a well too when he takes a well we are on equal power but t1 is skipped and i have at least 3 dead slots in my deck while he has only 1 dead slot, and this is exactly what im talking about.   

 

@FrozenRipper I use amazon and ts in t2, especially amazon. Not counting spell is your own point of view. Fact I Play the same amount of t1 of a normal shadow deck (Dreadcharger, forsaken, nox, nasty, life weaving). I play to win, t1 is skippable and it's how they made the game and I won't change my style to the very restricted meta deck. I win most match with a t2 lead and then I finish in t3 you're just beeing salty and prefer to point op card instead to check about your own mistakes, so keep loosing to my deck or just copy me.

@SunWu II. I've heard that many mid gold ranked player did this. But I've nerver met any of them. Maybe it's easy to handle for a beginner but none of them could made green rank.

You use Tree Spirit in t2 when u have left overs on field from t1.

T1 is not and should never be skippable and is where 90% of high ranked games are determined. U should never be able to just take a well and wait to t2, map control and a big advantage should be a result from a t1 fight that all players of equal rank in PvP should be forced to do. Vs any other top 20 player i would have to have a big t1 fight which would at least determine who has map control. If i just took a well on smaler to mid sized map vs any other top 20 player they would crush me, and thats how it should be when u just spend 100 power this early with no advantage . 

The fact remains u are the only top 20 player with no t1, and super big t3 and all u do is drag the game to t3 and win with 5 card t3, when all other top players can only have 2-3 cards in t3. It is really hard to beat a nature/frost in t2 with 0 advantage from t1, since it is a most defensive deck and its always 10 times easyer to def then to attack, and to do so u would need to be on much higher level skill wise. 

@Hirooo I was just defending myself of someone freely attacking me. I know it's not the subject of the thread. I said TS concept is bad and need a rework other than just stat change. I said a normal t1, not a large t1, not everyone play phase tower. Having a matchup that force opponent to avoid all agression and play another tier... I kinda don't like that too but sometime it's cards choice (not carrying phase tower and other counters...) that doesn't allow to make viable agression. But I don't think this is enough reason to change. Look at stonekin mirror or stonekin vs pure frost. It's mostly passive until t3 because the agressor is too much disadvantaged. I don't say it's impossible, but the defensor is more willing to win, get unit/power advantage after the fight, then win. So it just encourage people to be both passive until t3.

I am not attacking you, i am attacking PvP play style you promote which is the subject of this tread. Tree Spirit forces your opponent to be completely passive even when you give him 100 power advantage so early in the game, and it works vs all decks, this is just so broken. This alone is more then enough reason to rework this card plus the 5 card t3 it allows.

 
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@FrozenRipper: I couldn't have said it any better.

I think i might want to add that stonekin can not even afford to play any t3 usually, which gives you a chance of beating them if they only turtle later in the game. Stonekin is allready very powerfull in late t2 and with a 5 card t3 i often feel that there is hardly anything i (as a bandits player) am able to do to win the game.

 

Let's just add: "treespirits are too slot efficient and too strong in defense" to the whine list. We only want to collect issues here, remember?

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I think it is ok if we go into discussing several Points (you do anyways). I guess the list is kinda long enough. gonna rework it alter and put all Whines together. I think Treespirit is definitely worth to be discussed and maybe a candidate for one of the earlier changes when servers are up.Clearly a lot of High Ranked Top Players see it as an issue (and even those who defend it,s ay the concept is wrong and there should be a change).

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@FrozenRipper I'm considered as a new player by many. I discovered the game and explored the cards myself. I don't really care about conventional deck I just want to play what I feel efficient, t2 cost 150 which allow me to just rush it (if the game is mean to a not optional t1, they had to increase it) in most match and I have TS for some security to defend forced attack, with a strong t2 people are forced to follow me so i gain another advantage with more card slot. This is part of my strategy to counter most meta deck, if you don't want to get countered by this, just don't play a meta deck and i'm fucked (because unlike meta deck, mine doesn't allow me to stand a chance against anything). If ts was removed, I would just get 1 more card slot for my t2 where 90% of my game are determined because the game gave me the possibility to just spawn amazon and directly build a orb. I use Amazon in t2 every match agains't lost soul, they represent more than 1 game out of 20. Tree spirit I only use them to kill EP, but now they don't 1 shot anymore.

When they announced the game was going to close at this moment I was sage (lvl 32). If I take a well and you not, you should be able to make a efficient split attack and even win by not splitting if you have right cards in your deck.

It does not work against all deck, it work against most meta deck. My lost soul deck t1 has only 3 card (dreadcharger, forsaken, nasty) and I play the same way, I skip t1 and those 3 cards are just a security. Not the best t1, but still enough to defend. This one is a deck efficient. Most people play 5-7 cards in t1, just like the amazon + ts + spells + building (I play mark of the keeper for those who didn't notice). Ice shell isn't as powerful as shield building because tier are different even if I use both in t3. Not having a higher tier version of a card doesnt make this card more powerful. This is not legit to count unit only on the faction with the most cc and spell in all tier. However you still count my 3 spells in t3 even if I use them in tier t4 in 2v2.

Edited by Aragorn
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@FrozenRipper I'm considered as a new player by many. I discovered the game and explored the cards myself. I don't really care about conventional deck I just want to play what I feel efficient, t2 cost 150 which allow me to just rush it (if the game is mean to a not optional t1, they had to increase it) in most match and I have TS for some security to defend forced attack, with a strong t2 people are forced to follow me so i gain another advantage with more card slot. This is part of my strategy to counter most meta deck, if you don't want to get countered by this, just don't play a meta deck and i'm fucked (because unlike meta deck, mine doesn't allow me to stand a chance against anything). If ts was removed, I would just get 1 more card slot for my t2 where 90% of my game are determined because the game gave me the possibility to just spawn amazon and directly build a orb. I use Amazon in t2 every match agains't lost soul, they represent more than 1 game out of 20. Tree spirit I only use them to kill EP, but now they don't 1 shot anymore.

When they announced the game was going to close at this moment I was sage (lvl 32). If I take a well and you not, you should be able to make a efficient split attack and even win by not splitting if you have right cards in your deck.

It does not work against all deck, it work against most meta deck. My lost soul deck t1 has only 3 card (dreadcharger, forsaken, nasty) and I play the same way, I skip t1 and those 3 cards are just a security. Not the best t1, but still enough to defend. This one is a deck efficient. Most people play 5-7 cards in t1, just like the amazon + ts + spells + building (I play mark of the keeper for those who didn't notice). Ice shell isn't as powerful as shield building because tier are different even if I use both in t3. Not having a higher tier version of a card doesnt make this card more powerful. This is not legit to count unit only on the faction with the most cc and spell in all tier. However you still count my 3 spells in t3 even if I use them in tier t4 in 2v2.

Im sure you start all your games with a well and Tree Spirit spam because you want to lose and let your opponent make an efficient split attack and beat you that way, and im sure this is the reason why you lost soooo many games in t1, like 2% omg.

Op logic as always. This is not a tower defense game type, this is rts. If we go by this logic lets make Tree Spirit a swift unit, Church of Nagation a t2 building, then u could skip t1 and t2 and have 18 card t3 or even better skip t3 and and have 18 card t4, or lets make t5 t6 t7 t8 t9 and t10 so there is more tiers to skip, since it seems skipping game tiers is your fetish. And lets make it so first 90 minutes u cannot attack, so u can have enough time to get them Churches up, and lets make maps 1000 times larger so it takes you one hour to make contact with the enemy, and make game time limit to one month. Too bad this games would only have one player.

I explained pretty thoroughly why Tree Spirit is op and i wont go on repeating myself over and over to you like i did before. You should understand that this game is not about you and what you like or what got you the high rank. This game has a nice unique design and a good concept, but there were and there still are some balancing issues and you should leave your ignorance and accept that, and really learn to play this game and win games by outplaying your opponent, or just play PvE and keep your current play style.

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@FrozenRipper The well example was just an answer to the situation u stated. You were the one that said i'm going to start with a well. You're just cuting contexte and take what you want to hear. I don't see your logic much better, so because t1 is skippable you want make all tier skippable TS a swift unit a church of negation a t2 and map ultra large so nobody can fight until 90 minutes of walk? This is not just about me, this is about everyone refusing to play a certain conventional limited style play, I'm defending myself because you are the one attacking me and don't tell me you aren't trying. You are repeating me in other word when you say ts is like a tower defense game with not much outplaying. Again, you just take whatever you want to hear, you ask me to not make you repeat but it's what you are doing now. stonekin require a lot of card and can't afford to play 3 tiers, most people choose tier 1 and 2 while I chose tier 2 and 3 with its own advantage and disadvantage. You are a racist if you hate everyone taking a decision different of you, I'm not trash talking you because you can't innove your own play style so please some respect. I just say even if tree spirit aren't fun to play, not beeing able to beat them is a lack of skill and you are like those player doing the same mistake over and over and just blamming a op card, you are the one that need to learn to play, I'm am the one able to beat my own tier 1 strategy with any faction while you are the one that keep whinning. I seen player wasting 3 wildfire to support siege a SF while I take 2 well and just let my skyelf deny the offense, but you know what, he just blamed brannoc even with 200+ energie disadvantage. rts isn't just about micro and outplay, you have to make smart decision and build a counter deck, do you want we remove all cards with no outplay potentiel like tower and immobile unit like spikeroot.

Edited by Aragorn
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@FrozenRipper I'm considered as a new player by many. I discovered the game and explored the cards myself. I don't really care about conventional deck I just want to play what I feel efficient, t2 cost 150 which allow me to just rush it (if the game is mean to a not optional t1, they had to increase it) in most match and I have TS for some security to defend forced attack, with a strong t2 people are forced to follow me so i gain another advantage with more card slot. This is part of my strategy to counter most meta deck, if you don't want to get countered by this, just don't play a meta deck and i'm fucked (because unlike meta deck, mine doesn't allow me to stand a chance against anything). If ts was removed, I would just get 1 more card slot for my t2 where 90% of my game are determined because the game gave me the possibility to just spawn amazon and directly build a orb. I use Amazon in t2 every match agains't lost soul, they represent more than 1 game out of 20. Tree spirit I only use them to kill EP, but now they don't 1 shot anymore.

When they announced the game was going to close at this moment I was sage (lvl 32). If I take a well and you not, you should be able to make a efficient split attack and even win by not splitting if you have right cards in your deck.

It does not work against all deck, it work against most meta deck. My lost soul deck t1 has only 3 card (dreadcharger, forsaken, nasty) and I play the same way, I skip t1 and those 3 cards are just a security. Not the best t1, but still enough to defend. This one is a deck efficient. Most people play 5-7 cards in t1, just like the amazon + ts + spells + building (I play mark of the keeper for those who didn't notice). Ice shell isn't as powerful as shield building because tier are different even if I use both in t3. Not having a higher tier version of a card doesnt make this card more powerful. This is not legit to count unit only on the faction with the most cc and spell in all tier. However you still count my 3 spells in t3 even if I use them in tier t4 in 2v2.

I'm going to back Aragorn up a bit on this. I still think treespirit should be nerfed (mostly health, because the reason it was so strong is because it was unkillable) but a minimalist t1 is viable for most decks. Treespirits makes it a little too viable for nature in my opinion, but I played a 5 card fire t1 and I had only about 2 t1 decks slots that I didn't use in t2 in most matchups.

And yes, I can confirm that Aragorn had an especially hard time dealing with me :) Despite him being ranked much higher than me, my semi-non-meta deck got me wins that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Anyway, my 2 cents is that I think Aragorn's minimal t1 is a legitimate playstyle strategy, that CAN be countered, espeically in tournaments, but it shouldn't be quite so safe for him to pull off. (So nerf treespirit's health below 600 or raise the power cost to 70 or 75). They should be able to turtle if they DON'T take a well up early, but should not be able to take the first well and then turtle. If you want to save deck slots by a minimal t1 you should be able to do that, but you should have to accede to a small t1 disadvantage (waiting to take wells until your opponent does, which lets him set the pace and determine map control). Aragorn should not be able to contest you for map control (spawned treespirits should be erupted or nastied easily), but he should be able to set up camp somewhere and prevent you from taking more than your fair share of it in t1.

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@Eirias That's the weakness of a small t1, your opponent lead the direction of the game and I just follow to be the most safe as possible. In some rare scenario, in the past i lost to a mid gold player with super strange deck and I was like : there is nothing i can do with my deck. Nah they need more a rework than a nerf stat. TS is the type of card easy to handle at low elo with no potential in high elo because of immobility and auto-target. Passive still encourage spam viability instead of diversity and lack of potential would make ts not viable in high rank if his stat wasnt that good.

Edited by Aragorn
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@Eirias That's the weakness of a small t1, your opponent lead the direction of the game and I just follow to be the most safe as possible. In some rare scenario, in the past i lost to a mid gold player with super strange deck and I was like : there is nothing i can do with my deck. Nah they need more a rework than a nerf stat. TS is the type of card easy to handle at low elo with no potential in high elo because of immobility and auto-target. Passive still encourage spam viability instead of diversity and lack of potential would make ts not viable in high rank if his stat wasnt that good.

The problem is that you can frequently take a well first and then use treespirit to defend when a fire player rushes at you with 100 extra power; you will defend fine despite the power spent in a well. At the same time they're offensive enough that the fire player can't take an immediate well if he sees you rushing (unless he has mortar, and even then it's circumstantial) even if he knows you only have treespirits and amazon.

 

I think you could still pull off your technique if the treespirits costed more or had 600 health; you'd just have to summon them early to defend a well cluster and can't take until your opponent takes the first well of his choosing. What I hated about treespirits was that you could summon them dazed because they had great health AND were your cheapest units, on top of being immensely powerful.

I feel like in its current state, treespirits are powerful enough that your opponent doesn't get a significant enough advantage as far as dictating the direction of the game. You can run up to the center with amazon and spawn treespirits--they will usually be fine getting out of daze because of their health. This threatens the opposing player from taking that well because the rush is significant enough to win. Both of you sort of mass armies but don't really engage, until he takes a well off-center, allowing you to also do so. In an ideal scenario, you have to take a well maybe 1/3 of the way to the center so you have time to build a well and then make treespirits. You should not be able to contest anything without a well, but if a well comes up, you should still be able to defend.

What sort of rework are you thinking? Some sort of bonus when summoned by structures to make them worse when attacking? (this might make them "still" OP when combined with a frost t1 in 2v2, but I feel that's sort of justified because frost and nature t1 is pretty rare). And maybe a cooldown for their roots so you have to build them a little bit ahead of time so you can't just spam them as a last ditch effort? For instance, the way it is now, you can wait until fire was truly committed to a rush, then ensnaring roots or hurricane and treespirit spam takes out everything. The treespirits ought to be summoned earlier so someone knows what's up before he commits to an attack (sort of like nightguard, though not so extreme).

 

What sort of deck can you do nothing about? I can't imagine that. Once you get to t2 you're fine. Someone with a 12 card frost t1?

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@Eirias I've never won an agression with tree spirit, they just hide behind the well and stack unit. 100 power for 2000 health and even more because he will also rotate tank time and save all of his unit while still protecting the well. and poison affinity doesn't affect well. If i take a well before my opponent I usually loose if he start to split  especially with 100 power advantage. I tested many situation with drakonz to find out the best counter in t1 and in your scenario he ended with a 100% win rate. He still got a good win rate if we both take a well. 50% if we both take a well, and 0% if i spam ts directly without amazon and well but depending the map he would just get map control and go t2.

"You can run up to the center with amazon and spawn treespirits--they will usually be fine getting out of daze because of their health." That's wrong. I can't do it. TS can't fight until they are able to use their ability. They can survive, but they will start fight with half health while opponent troup are full. This scenario only work if my opponent isn't good enough which never happen if im matched near my elo.

They have already a long cooldown for their root. The rework i'm thinking is to remove the bonus stat from beeing grouped but still give bonus to other unit (t2) (don't promote spam anymore and nerf at the same time). They should attack a single unit at time with no poison (so they doesn't counter S at the same time without help). Increase the fire rate with a manual target system but keep same total damage per 20 secondes (so there is some micro potential). Increase damage to 500 in 20s in melee mode so they are viable as both range or melee. Since the red affinity no longer procure poison, it could remove the delay to switch between melee/range just like razorshard.

Whats sort of deck? Ice barrer spam (any frost card, that's why I don't even try to fight t1 and just rush t2). Mortar tower, Phase tower. And some other cards give advantage but I can still do something. When I said a counter-deck, i wasn't talking about t1, i was talking about a my whole hard counter-deck t1-t2-t3.

Edited by Aragorn
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  • 1 month later...

Hey Everybody...

because there were no more Posts here in the last weeks, i am going to complete and sort out the list in the first posting, so we have a list of things that are worth to discuss further. But before I'll lead over to this, i want to make one more point and ask for your opinions here and maybe someone can explain to me again why this was not OP, because I alwways felt it to be imbalanced: The defensive Power of shadow-splashs through the combination of Aura and Nasty. I know, this was not realy an issue for most of the community, but at least for me it felt that those two cards made it nearly impossible to attack Shadow/Frost in T2 in combination with the frostspells .. it sometimes was kind of frustrating to have worn off an enemy attack with micro and good counterplay, then launch the counterattack and the enemy just reacts with a defensive crawlernasty or an Aura to kind of easily dodge an attack... especialy a pain in the ass if you have kinda expensive attacking units like skyfire + scythe... i know, aura is dodgeable, nasty sometimes as well.. and i don't recall exactly what was done to nasty.. i think there was made a dmg-cap for it, that adressed it being too strong in T3 ?! But do you think it was fully balanced in T2 (Reavernasty..)? Or am i just biased? It just often felt soo lame to me.. boom nasty or aura, everything save... meeh..

I would like to hear some opinions on that to get it clear for me again, after this i will post the List of Balancing Issues found out in the discussion that are worth to discuss further.

Cheers, Nachtalb

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Hey Everybody...

because there were no more Posts here in the last weeks, i am going to complete and sort out the list in the first posting, so we have a list of things that are worth to discuss further. But before I'll lead over to this, i want to make one more point and ask for your opinions here and maybe someone can explain to me again why this was not OP, because I alwways felt it to be imbalanced: The defensive Power of shadow-splashs through the combination of Aura and Nasty. I know, this was not realy an issue for most of the community, but at least for me it felt that those two cards made it nearly impossible to attack Shadow/Frost in T2 in combination with the frostspells .. it sometimes was kind of frustrating to have worn off an enemy attack with micro and good counterplay, then launch the counterattack and the enemy just reacts with a defensive crawlernasty or an Aura to kind of easily dodge an attack... especialy a pain in the ass if you have kinda expensive attacking units like skyfire + scythe... i know, aura is dodgeable, nasty sometimes as well.. and i don't recall exactly what was done to nasty.. i think there was made a dmg-cap for it, that adressed it being too strong in T3 ?! But do you think it was fully balanced in T2 (Reavernasty..)? Or am i just biased? It just often felt soo lame to me.. boom nasty or aura, everything save... meeh..

I would like to hear some opinions on that to get it clear for me again, after this i will post the List of Balancing Issues found out in the discussion that are worth to discuss further.

Cheers, Nachtalb

AoC and nasty surprise (the nerf let to only 1000hp being effectively nastied, KoC is the perfect nasty unit now) were nicely balanced in my book.

AoC: Like you already said there was often a chance to dodge it and then attack somewhere else or heal your units, leaving the AoC player with a temporary disadvantage. I feel that the sometimes seemingly overwhelming defense of lost decks mainly stems from kobold trick, cheap fast DA and NC damage, good anti air + coldsnap being a solid cc. T3 it get's worse with shield building. I think they can do good without AoC. However AoC is essential for Shadow/Nature and also important for pure shadow and bandits and therefor i don't like the thougt of nerfing it.

Nasty surprise: I'm biased here, i love that card : ) I think it's last nerf was really well executed, you can't just blindly bomb XLs in T3 now. In T2 it isn't too much of a problem for nature splashes thx to roots, i don't really know how it is for you as fire/frost cause i almost never played that. I always imagined the trick is to hit the nc with your drake before it nasties and think of creative ways to split before attacking...

Edited by SunWu II.
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Hm, yeah, to me it just felt a bit too much, concerning the very cheap Units (DA + NC) plus Nasty and AOC plus CheapCC or Building Protects ... maybe just a slight nerf for Darkelves would be discussable? Maybe make their Ability Cost a very small amount of energy or have a greater disadvantage for them...

And yeah SunWu, you are right, try to hit the NC with the drake before it can nasty kind of did the trick, however, this isn't always possible, especially at bottleneck points (same for splitting). It is counterplayable, but it affords much much more micro and foresight than just klicking two cards... Each card for itself is ok an balanced, but overall the combination of those cards (and there is NG adding as well) does provide a too easy way (not too effective, but too easy to execute) in defense, in my opinion. But i can not think of a good tweak.. maybe a slight DA-Abilty nerf...

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I do not think a Shadow Frost T2 nerf is necessary.  The Reavernerf was very nice & I don't even think Shadow Frost T2 was very strong, pure fire outclassed it super hard. Just take a look at the particular shadow frost T2!! vs X matchups

 

vs Pure Nature 45-50% (this matchup used to be even worse, but the stormsinger buff made the EP defensive a litte bit easier)

vs Fire Nature 45-50% (Stormsinger & DA's provided a good defense against the burrower + cc attack, but the fire nature player had more pressure & it's not really hard to clear the S/F-attacks - Mounti was problematic from time to time)

vs Pure Fire 40% (cliffdancer maps like whazai would decrease your winchance even further. Pure Fire outclasses shadow frost due to more efficient units)

vs Stonekin 45-50% (Stonekin had a very easy time to defend against Shadow Frost, in addition to that stonekin could smash you with Burrower + homesoil (2x burrower + homesoil need only 10-11 seconds to destroy an entire power well)) 

vs Pure Frost 55% (DA + Stormsinger are very good against war eagle ... well that's it ^^)

vs Bandits 65% (That matchup was a joke. Bandits has no superior unit, but shadow frost has cc & protects which makes the matchup nearly unwinnable without a strong T1 lead)

vs Shadow Nature 40% (Very very ugly matchup. Shadow Nature has similar Units, but superior cc. Play against a strong SN player and he will demolish your SF deck)

vs Pure Shadow 50% (as long as the SF player uses Lyrish Knight the defense is really solid against pure Shadow - shadow phoenix + lyrish nasty is such a nice aoe burst combo. But Harvester & Shadowmages can still apply alot of pressure.)   

vs Fire Frost 55% (Stormsinger vs Stormsinger ... DA's gave shadow frost a small advantage because scythe fiends would lose against 2x DA + Frost bite even with ravage)

 

And now take a look at the entire matchup with T3 included

 

vs Pure Nature 50-55% (inferior T2, superior T3 because of Timeless one - Mo was the only scary card against this)

vs Fire Nature 60% (stall the game because your defense is solid -> win because your Timeless one T3 is superior)

vs Pure Fire 40% (Meh, Juggernaut is strong)

vs Stonekin 55% (Timeless one, Ashebone, Grig -> bb stonekin ... btw lost vigil was super strong against stonekin player without T3 & ct defense)

vs pure Frost 55% (T3 is the same since the Pure frost player would go for the shadow orb - winrate remains the same)

vs Bandits 70% (Hello Timeless one, RiP Bandits)

vs Shadow Nature 45-50% (Shadow Frost T3 is superior thanks to timeless one, but its really hard to stall against shadow nature, because the deck is so aggressive)

vs Pure Shadow 60% (Timeless one T3 is superior)

vs Fire Frost 60% (Timeless one + Ashbone + Grig + X is the superior T3. Brannoc could help the Fire frost player)

 

This is how Shadow Frost works. In many matchups your T2 is just a tool which helps you to survive the pre T3 gamestage and it works really well to be honest. If you intend to nerf Shadow Frost go for a timeless one nerf. But as long as pure Fire stays this strong a timeless one nerf would just hurt the balancing.

-> A Darkelf Assassin nerf would be horrible, because it kills bandits & hurts shadow nature sooo much.

-> Nasty surprise is balanced now. The Nerf was really good, I agree with SunWu at this point (in addition to that: Fire Frost has alot of high hp units, which means nasty isn't the biggest issue as long as you split your units & pay attention of your skyfire drakes).

->Fun fact: I did not even use AOC in my Shadow Frost ladder deck. It was only useful against cliffdancer (it was not even close to be power efficient, but at least the dancer was dead & you could zone your opponent for the next 40 seconds) and against DO spam, but since the amount of decent pure nature players was ... lets say pretty low it wasn't really important to have AOC in your deck. Some other high ranked players (that grigori-spambot for example) didn't use AOC either so I wasn't the only one. 

 

tl dr Shadow Frost T3 is maybe a little bit overpowered, but the T2 by no means & I'm against any nerfs because Shadow Frost is not even the strongest deck in the "current" meta

 

Best regards

Radi

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Thanks for making this clear RadicalX, but as you say yourself: T2 is mainly needed in Sh/Fr to defend into T3, and because of that, the strong T2 defense seems making it all a kind of lame deck to play. But ok, i will stp my biased whining then here, and go for sorting out the list and go through each post of the thread again and collect the opinions...

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I do not think a Shadow Frost T2 nerf is necessary.  The Reavernerf was very nice & I don't even think Shadow Frost T2 was very strong, pure fire outclassed it super hard. Just take a look at the particular shadow frost T2!! vs X matchups

 

vs Pure Nature 45-50% (this matchup used to be even worse, but the stormsinger buff made the EP defensive a litte bit easier)

vs Fire Nature 45-50% (Stormsinger & DA's provided a good defense against the burrower + cc attack, but the fire nature player had more pressure & it's not really hard to clear the S/F-attacks - Mounti was problematic from time to time)

vs Pure Fire 40% (cliffdancer maps like whazai would decrease your winchance even further. Pure Fire outclasses shadow frost due to more efficient units)

vs Stonekin 45-50% (Stonekin had a very easy time to defend against Shadow Frost, in addition to that stonekin could smash you with Burrower + homesoil (2x burrower + homesoil need only 10-11 seconds to destroy an entire power well)) 

vs Pure Frost 55% (DA + Stormsinger are very good against war eagle ... well that's it ^^)

vs Bandits 65% (That matchup was a joke. Bandits has no superior unit, but shadow frost has cc & protects which makes the matchup nearly unwinnable without a strong T1 lead)

vs Shadow Nature 40% (Very very ugly matchup. Shadow Nature has similar Units, but superior cc. Play against a strong SN player and he will demolish your SF deck)

vs Pure Shadow 50% (as long as the SF player uses Lyrish Knight the defense is really solid against pure Shadow - shadow phoenix + lyrish nasty is such a nice aoe burst combo. But Harvester & Shadowmages can still apply alot of pressure.)   

vs Fire Frost 55% (Stormsinger vs Stormsinger ... DA's gave shadow frost a small advantage because scythe fiends would lose against 2x DA + Frost bite even with ravage)

 

And now take a look at the entire matchup with T3 included

 

vs Pure Nature 50-55% (inferior T2, superior T3 because of Timeless one - Mo was the only scary card against this)

vs Fire Nature 60% (stall the game because your defense is solid -> win because your Timeless one T3 is superior)

vs Pure Fire 40% (Meh, Juggernaut is strong)

vs Stonekin 55% (Timeless one, Ashebone, Grig -> bb stonekin ... btw lost vigil was super strong against stonekin player without T3 & ct defense)

vs pure Frost 55% (T3 is the same since the Pure frost player would go for the shadow orb - winrate remains the same)

vs Bandits 70% (Hello Timeless one, RiP Bandits)

vs Shadow Nature 45-50% (Shadow Frost T3 is superior thanks to timeless one, but its really hard to stall against shadow nature, because the deck is so aggressive)

vs Pure Shadow 60% (Timeless one T3 is superior)

vs Fire Frost 60% (Timeless one + Ashbone + Grig + X is the superior T3. Brannoc could help the Fire frost player)

 

This is how Shadow Frost works. In many matchups your T2 is just a tool which helps you to survive the pre T3 gamestage and it works really well to be honest. If you intend to nerf Shadow Frost go for a timeless one nerf. But as long as pure Fire stays this strong a timeless one nerf would just hurt the balancing.

-> A Darkelf Assassin nerf would be horrible, because it kills bandits & hurts shadow nature sooo much.

-> Nasty surprise is balanced now. The Nerf was really good, I agree with SunWu at this point (in addition to that: Fire Frost has alot of high hp units, which means nasty isn't the biggest issue as long as you split your units & pay attention of your skyfire drakes).

->Fun fact: I did not even use AOC in my Shadow Frost ladder deck. It was only useful against cliffdancer (it was not even close to be power efficient, but at least the dancer was dead & you could zone your opponent for the next 40 seconds) and against DO spam, but since the amount of decent pure nature players was ... lets say pretty low it wasn't really important to have AOC in your deck. Some other high ranked players (that grigori-spambot for example) didn't use AOC either so I wasn't the only one. 

 

tl dr Shadow Frost T3 is maybe a little bit overpowered, but the T2 by no means & I'm against any nerfs because Shadow Frost is not even the strongest deck in the "current" meta

 

Best regards

Radi

@RadicalX When I first read those percentages I was like "what are you talking about???" Then I saw you didn't count t3. That makes sense :)

If shadow-frost wasn't the strongest deck in the meta, that's probably because most players used shadow-frost, so a deck that beats it would get an "undeserved" boost in the meta. What do you think was the strongest deck? (Also, I'm soooo stealing this for my guide :) )

I'm curious why you think pure fire has such an advantage over LS. It always seemed advantageous for the LS player, from what I've seen, unless that map favors fire (which I guess is part of the game--is that where you factored in the fire advantage?).

Rather than nerf timeless one, I wonder if it would be better to nerf grigori to require 2 shadow orbs (and maybe ashbone to need 2 shadow orbs as well?) so that a LS player would have to choose between grigori or timeless one.

 

@Nachtalb There are a lot of ways around nasty. I feel like nasty is one of those cards that becomes more OP as skill level decreases, because it's easier to use than to avoid. Bottlenecks make it easier to avoid the nasty, because the drake can fly where NC can't. Also, if I recall, a NC can only nasty to kill a drake if the NC is running toward the drake. Good micro usually lets the drake get a shot off. Otherwise just make sure the drake is the only unit that gets hit, and spawn another one (100 power vs 110 power). If you play fire-frost, an ice shield would take care of it.

If you're talking about when you're launching an attack and a NC is spawned, clearly to nasty, you can erupt it (if you have power to spare), or you can spawn a squad of small units underneath the NC to slow it down and get a drake shot off. It doesn't even have to be a drake shot, actually...I used to sometimes bring a gladiatrix to offensives and even a shot from a glady will save the drake. I'm sure stormsinger would do the same.

For AoC, I agree that it can be problematic (maybe more OP in 2v2 than 1v1), but I don't think it is due for a nerf. There are ways around it.

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If shadow-frost wasn't the strongest deck in the meta, that's probably because most players used shadow-frost, so a deck that beats it would get an "undeserved" boost in the meta. What do you think was the strongest deck? (Also, I'm soooo stealing this for my guide :) )

Pure Fire is the strongest deck in my opinion. The reasons are pretty simple

1. Juggernaut is the strongest T3 card in the game. 

2. map-rng advantages (cliffdancer) -> highest chance out of all decks to get upset wins against a better player -> easy to play  

3. strong T2 vs shadow Frost (the most played deck aside from pure fire), because you can protect your Firedancer very well since Enforcer are superior to Nightcrawler & Darkelf Assassins don't have enough damage to kill them fast enough. 

Wait... whaaat?

 

Disappointing to read such a sentence from you :0

Didn't want to disappoint you :( but that's my opinion:

Either nerf both Pure Fire & Timeless one or keep everything how it is right now, because the current balancing is the best we've ever had. Aside from OP vileblood of course, hehe ^-^

 

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