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The PvP-Balancing Wish/Whine-List


Nachtalb

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Let's be real here:

Is is possible to win players at an equal skill level (in terms of mechanics) with a bandits deck? Yes, i have done so. No real "autolose" situations (that is: the enemy will win no matter what).

However: You only win those matches if you have a better gameplan, mindgame your enemy and/or pull ahead in t1 against certain problematic factions. This is hardly something that happens all the time and the room for errors is very slim in some cases. Still, bandits are not as terrible as most players make it sound, it is certainly not a troll deck.

Does that mean it is balanced? Certainly not!

I doubt that the top 50 winrate (i say top 50 here, otherwise there would just not even be a sufficient amount of players for the statistics) of bandits would be near the 50% mark and in some matchups (lost souls, stonekin, shadow/nature) it feels like it is close to just 30%. The only favorable matchup i can think of is pure nature and you usually go even or have a slight edge (depending on deck build) against pure fire. Every nature-splash and frost splash has a major advantage by having protects and cc or having cc and burrowers. Most players cannot utilize this advantage very well since they in general lack experience vs. bandits because the faction is so underplayed (get baited into using cc poorly or use protects when i never really tried to take the well etc. etc.). If my oponents had the same experience/insight into the matchup as i did, i would have a very hard time in these matchups because i could not surprise them very well or play around my weakpoints properly.

Bandits both have no cc and only have units at their disposal which are highly suceptible to cc. If the enemy does not misplay his cc, the bandits player can get devestated by the slightest misstep. In my opinion bandits would need a unit which is cheap and ranged and cannot be knockbacked, so they at least stand a chance against nature cc in defense. Frost defense is somewhat managable with shadow phoenix against clusters, just shadow frost is very hard to deal with. In this case the issue lies at shadow frost in my opinion and i would not buff any bandits units before shadow-frost is in a healthy state (t2 too effective and safe for the amount of deckslots it takes, allows for extra cards in t1 and especially t3).

I would love to see a bandit sniper card in this faction (filling the cheap, ranged and hurricane proof role), that one might just solve a lot of issues against cc. I honestly think this is all what it needs; sure there are other bandits t2 cards but they usually are only usefull in offense and there they only help in matchups which are not that bad for bandits players. Most bandit t2 cards (just look at banditos) do not fill any role in the deck and are in general poor designs. I doubt that we could make any of them viable without giving them entirely broken stats (even bandit spearman are not having broken enough stats te be worth a slot imo).

I am not in favor of giving bandits any sort of hard cc/strong defensive spell, it just does not fit the faction. No cc and beeing suceptible to cc should remain a weakpoint of the faction, however it should be a managable weakpoint. Currently it is more like a big hole and not just a weakspot.

 

Ps:

The behaviour of certain high rank players indeed makes me feel like a proper balancing discussion with them is not possible. They just claim their standpoint to be correct and if you disagree you clearly are just "not at their lvl" even though the points you have made were perfectly valid. I would not want to trust them with balancing in any way, but selecting the right players for the job is difficult as well. On one hand they need to have proper insight into the faction which is beeing buffed/nerfed/reworked, but on the other hand they must not be biased to a point where they just disagree with other players without making proper arguments (not wanting to nerf their own factions even though they know it is justified, trying to nerf everything they do not have a counter for in their deck just because they do not want to spend a deckslot for situational cards etc. etc.). Should a balancing team be made, i trust in the ability of the devs to pick the proper players and have the final say in the changes which get implemented. So far the dev team has made very resonable choices regarding the project and i doubt they would mess this up in any major way.

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@Eirias

Razorshard : I said well disposition. In the same way you do not take a well vulnerable to cliff against firedancer. Razorshard deal limited damage to single target but good total damage in splash. They are strong against well when they are in group of 3. You take multiple base, max 2 structure per base and if you can take the 2 wells opposed to each other with nothing in the middle. You loose by concentring everything to 1 spot in defense or offense against stonekin.

Sunreaver : You have to admit it was pretty unlegit they were able to 1v1 drone (L counter for same cost). The nerf wasnt that huge.

Twilight t3 : You have a sun reaver, GS, drone, if you want something not weak when grouped then get brannoc, it's a neutral card especially to compasate the lack of XL to deck.

 

@Ashurnibibi

In no way you should be able to rush t2 with a 300 power cost harvester.

@RadicalX

Tree spirit has a lot of counter play, for exemple the animation has a delay you can bait the 1st wave and dodge it to gain a free 10 secondes at the beginning of the fight. Not requiring micro is a disadvantage, they just attack the closest target. It mean you can use a tank like skelleton warrior, life weaving, ice barrer, amazon in front lane to take all damage. Meanwhile the tree spirit user cannot do anything beside spam them.

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The behaviour of certain high rank players indeed makes me feel like a proper balancing discussion with them is not possible. They just claim their standpoint to be correct and if you disagree you clearly are just "not at their lvl" even though the points you have made were perfectly valid. I would not want to trust them with balancing in any way, but selecting the right players for the job is difficult as well. On one hand they need to have proper insight into the faction which is beeing buffed/nerfed/reworked, but on the other hand they must not be biased to a point where they just disagree with other players without making proper arguments (not wanting to nerf their own factions even though they know it is justified, trying to nerf everything they do not have a counter for in their deck just because they do not want to spend a deckslot for situational cards etc. etc.). Should a balancing team be made, i trust in the ability of the devs to pick the proper players and have the final say in the changes which get implemented. So far the dev team has made very resonable choices regarding the project and i doubt they would mess this up in any major way.

<Content Removed>

[NOTE by MrXLink: Please post in English]

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@xHighTech Let me be very clear: My comment was not directly aimed at you. There are others which are far less resonable (i do not call names here) and actually i think you are beeing resoable as long as no outrageous claims are beeing made. You should try to remain a bit more calm and just ignore posts which clearly indicate a lack of skill. These posts will not have any effect whatsoever if the balancing team is halfway decent.

This topic has been made to provide an unfiltered list about balancing issues present in the game. As stated by op, even if all kinds of cards/issues are on this list, not all have to be adressed.

There surely are questionable choices on it, no doubt. Especially "unit x is op" statements often correspond with a lack of skills and experience. There will allways be discussions, that's true. This is especially true for tactics requireing low skill to execute and require a higher amount of skill to counter such a cliffdancer. Most high ranked players share a simmilar view in terms of game balance (as long as they want the game to be balanced) and as long as they are somewhat in charge/ have a say in terms of balance i doubt "unit x is op because i just lost" arguments will have a significant impact.

Players have opinions, no matter what skill lvl they have. They can be wrong. They can be convinced that they are right even if they are clearly not. As long as balance is not decided by a public vote, i can't see a problem with that.

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Just to make this clear: This thread is not here to make a basic-democratic forums decision about which things on the list should be Balanced. It is just to porvide n overview about the feelings and overall opinions of the PvP-Comunity. NOT everything on that List ahs to be a real Balancing issue. On Aim is to sort out at the end which postet issues are real ones and are worth further discussion. I realy hope that at the end we have a list of perceived issues that actuialy are none as well. So everytime a new player starts to whine about a certain card that allready has been discussed to be no balancing issue, we could point him here..

 

I like the idea of haveng a "council" of high ranked players that should be able to make proposals on which card/mechanic should be balanced.

 

However some of the things I see in this list are not issues at all but player perception.

 

Pls read the topic again. That is what the thread (in the first round) is made for: To collect all PERCEIVED Issues of balancing to get a basis for a discussion about what is a real issue and what is not. I am really repeating me. Pls read, then write. And pls stop the discussion, let's just collect at first, maybe for one more week, then lets start a discussion about this list of perceived issues...

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All in all the game was quite balanced.

Sure, there was some elements that has a disadvantage against another special element, but all in all everything was playable and everything was beatable.

Further i confirm, that some people with lower ranks (lets say them who was lower than blueranked) sometimes had strange opinions about balancing, especially this one who only played one deck. So i think its better for incoming balancing changes to hear mostly to a "council of highrankes"  or something like that, as to balance the way the majority of all players is thinking.

Edit: I think the best/worst example of a bad change after hearing to the majority of all players was this nerf to frost t1 (miliz), although there was nearly nobody playing succesfull frost t1.

Edited by DuellLord
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@Eirias To compare a card with another one that was not played and to claim since it had many upsides is not a good argument.

While I havent played a while and maybe overlook a matchup since the stormsingerbuff razorshards seemed fine. The idea to fix the animation to make micro easier should help because this way a keyfeature when playing against them. Generally every unit could doge the damage if microed properly. The splash that had the biggest problems dealing with them was shadow nature. 

@RadicalX

Tree spirit has a lot of counter play, for exemple the animation has a delay you can bait the 1st wave and dodge it to gain a free 10 secondes at the beginning of the fight. Not requiring micro is a disadvantage, they just attack the closest target. It mean you can use a tank like skelleton warrior, life weaving, ice barrer, amazon in front lane to take all damage. Meanwhile the tree spirit user cannot do anything beside spam them.

You could stop the treespirits form firing by ordering a stop command. A root in range to get a meeleunit was worth the energy and could block a reengage in most areas.

Skelletonwarriors can be hurricaned if the shadowplayer chooses to activate them. Lifeweaving is not a viable choice. To spend 75 energy for one unit to tank a bit more in t1 loses you the fight in an instant.

While icebarrier is a viable choice amazon isnt. A 25% damagereduction wont change the fact that the amazon will get rooted and die very quickly to treespirirts.

Shamans and dryads against treespiritspam does not work. The dps of treespirits is way more than any other natureball creates and a naturemirror with one side having treespirits and the other side doesnt forces an early t2. Thats the highest possible default advantage a t1 can archive. 

 

Edited by Hirooo
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@Eirias To compare a card with another one that was not played and to claim since it had many upsides is not a good argument.

Well, I used firestalker quite viably at the Ruler level. Yes, yes, dropping it is what let me get past that but it WAS "played," at least by one mediocre player. :)

I would have liked it to be a bit more viable, but I also wouldn't want to face people indiscriminately spamming them (like razorshard, cough cough). Obviously razorshard should be better in general--but firestalker should be SPECIFICALLY better at long range siege...since that's what it was designed for.

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@Hirooo 

Nah amazon really work, that's what I do when I'm against another tree spirit user. It's 50% reducted damage not 25% they don't die quickly at all. With shaman the healing efficient is doubled. Rooting only 1 amazon isn't worth especially if you micro the rest of ranged unit so they still use amazon as a tank if you approach them. 45 for gaining 15s, not worth. rooting so amazon don't attack, not worth too the goal is to tank and she will still tank.

"You could stop the treespirits form firing by ordering a stop command. A root in range to get a meeleunit was worth the energy and could block a reengage in most areas." Shhhh, that's was my secret.

They dont need to activate skelleton warrior, they are S with high health it's enough to tank. And even if you activate and I use hurricane they are still the closest target TS will attack them while nox trooper attack safely TS. You also need to remember spell can be used at 1 place only. So you can still make 2 group with 1 skelleton warrior each, TS are much less efficient when not rooted with others tree spirit.

Life weaving is situational, if you can get a unit close with full hp because of the cooldown on root or lack of energie.

@Eirias They have more siege damage and 10m more range than razor, unless you make 3 well at the same place fire stalker are better siege unit. And they are fire/neutral, too many faction could play them while razor is stonekin only.

 

 

Edited by Aragorn
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Nah amazon really work, that's what I do when I'm against another tree spirit user. It's 50% reducted damage not 25% they don't die quickly at all. With shaman the healing efficient is doubled. Rooting only 1 amazon isn't worth especially if you micro the rest of ranged unit so they still use amazon as a tank if you approach them. 45 for gaining 15s, not worth. rooting so amazon don't attack, not worth too the goal is to tank and she will still tank.

They dont need to activate skelleton warrior, they are S with high health it's enough to tank. And even if you activate and I use hurricane they are still the closest target TS will attack them while nox trooper attack safely TS. You also need to remember spell can be used at 1 place only. So you can still make 2 group with 1 skelleton warrior each, TS are much less efficient when not rooted with others tree spirit.

Life weaving is situational, if you can get a unit close with full hp because of the cooldown on root or lack of energie

In Nature mirrors the purple treespirit is actually the stronger one since it ignores the damagereduction of Dryads and provides reliable nuke against m units -> 4 treespirits are enough to nuke the amazone which would justify a root to prevent the dodgemove (the result would be a 35power advantage for the TS-user and you provide safety for your Units so the 10s cd on the attack can't get abused in any way). Aside from that there is litereally nothing in Nature T1 that can kill a Treespirit. The Shaman DPS vs M Units was 29 (43,5 with splashdamage, if your units weren't splitted). Treespirit had a ridicilous amount of hp and it is just not possible to kill them with Shamans. Swiftclaw provides the damage, but is not ranged and has no way to get close to the treespirits. Spearmen were maybe the best Units to soak up damage, but there is still no way to deal the damage to kill anything.  

I agree skeleton warrior + nox trooper spam is the best unit composition against Treespirits, but they would still lose. In a mass spam the would get nuked by 6+ Treespirits, in split scenarios the nature player has still multiple cc's to deal with them (btw. if the nature player doesn't take a well in the early you wont be able to force split-scenarios on many maps). Aside from that you can still use windweavers against shadow who smash skeleton warriors (the double attack provides 96 dps) since they were good against nox troopers aswell because nox couldn't finish multiple winweavers with their attacks even if they had just 10hp.

Life weaving is not situational. It is bad. Really bad. If you don't want to protect a unit which is about to kill a power well do not use life weaving in T1.

A massive Magespam with Icebarriers & home soil is the only thing that is capable of neutralizing Treespirits, but you can still play defensive & destroy the ice barriers before they are finished if the frost player tries to attack so its not an autowin or something.  

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@RadicalX That's true about purple tree spirit, but very few play it most prefer the other affinity. You can't destroy ice barrer while they are under construction because the wave delay is too long and even if ts destroy them it's still worth because they block the wave. Life weaving is situation and good. Where did I say kill them with shaman? I said double the healing efficient on amazon or poison affinity tree spirit (the one most player use). If you want to talk about nature mirror without ts, it's dryad + shaman spam, not much more skill involved. He will take a well if you take a well, TS only are bad in offense, you can force split scenario. Why are you talking about windweaver, you said ts spam outrade and win everything. Why are you talking about large group? Everyone knows nature win in this situation. Mass spam isn't representative of the game.

You're just trying to say TS are uncounterable but you actually have not much experience for saying that, that's wrong, I can name a lot of people that are able to deal with them and I can proove it myself when the game will be release with any faction. Tree spirit spam only with spells will never win if you do thing right.

Edited by Aragorn
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I will not disagree that TS's can be a pain, however if you have Amazon in your deck, then it is much much easier to deal with them.  I was one of those nature players that had both affinitites in my deck.  I can honestly say I do not think I ever spammed them, even if my opponent did. I used them as supports for my root networks when needed.  Also TS's are horrible at offense in nature mirrors , if they are being spammed take a well.  .

 

Another neat little trick besides the Amazon + Shaman combo was the Amazon's control spell and then micro, while not a long duration it was enough to cause confusion with the TS player.  God did Fire players hate it when I took over their scavy :>

Here's an interesting question though.  How many PVP'ers actually run nature though?  If you look at most of the vids on You Tube they are either fire or shadow. 

Edited by Darian DelFord
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@RadicalX That's true about purple tree spirit, but very few play it most prefer the other affinity. You can't destroy ice barrer while they are under construction because the wave delay is too long and even if ts destroy them it's still worth because they block the wave. Life weaving is situation and good. Where did I say kill them with shaman? I said double the healing efficient on amazon or poison affinity tree spirit (the one most player use). If you want to talk about nature mirror without ts, it's dryad + shaman spam, not much more skill involved. He will take a well if you take a well, TS only are bad in offense, you can force split scenario. Why are you talking about windweaver, you said ts spam outrade and win everything. Why are you talking about large group? Everyone knows nature win in this situation. Mass spam isn't representative of the game.

You're just trying to say TS are uncounterable but you actually have not much experience for saying that, that's wrong, I can name a lot of people that are able to deal with them and I can proove it myself when the game will be release with any faction. Tree spirit spam only with spells will never win if you do thing right.

The amount of players who use a card are no indicator for its strength. Fact is: purple Treespirit smashes the other nature player. If you spam dryads & shamans in a nature mirror you will lose to swiftclaw, spearman, shaman, dryad on every non generated map btw. I talk about Windweaver because they are part of a nature T1 like dryad, hurricane, root or heal. 

I don't think it is fair to call me unexperienced. I was actually the most succesful Treespirit player in 1vs1 (played 173 games, won 173, never saw an answer to Treespirit except towerspamming). But if you think you can beat me with treespirit i would like to see it when the game will be released. I would win a bo5 against any faction, even Frost, I'm pretty confident with that statement.

@Darian DelFord The only relevant nature player I've played against was dekka

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well trying to find some random combinations of units wich might technicly be able to beat treespirits is just a postive confirmed error since all the counterplays like trying to bait out a shot or smtng. would be useless vs root.

Technicly the unit was jsut way to strong, was playable in a mass spamm vs basycly every t1 and still able to win by its own. The base unit concept of treespirit was just dump. First of all it is ranged m/m unit wich synergieses way to good with root (ranged) and hurricane (forces enemy to play m units) combined wth the base stats it was jsut a joke.

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@RadicalX Meanwhile the other affinity is stronger against fire and shadow. And Ok let's do that. And don't forget you can't use anything beside tree spirit and spell. Because you said tree spirit spam outrade anything you're not allowed of any other unit or building. I'll play a normal size t1 of each faction. No t2 or t3 fight.

 

PS: Your active time (those 173 games) was before a nerf of tree spirit (I think it was -33% damage).

@Darian DelFord Dekka, bejinguy, xyNNNN, few mid/low ranked player and some people that doesn't main pure natue, like me on a smurf (I only made Legend with  pure nature).

 

@Anonymos I'm agree the concept is dump, they deserve a rework. The passive encourage people to spam it and there is no micro even if you try.

Edited by Aragorn
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@Darian DelFord Dekka, bejinguy, xyNNNN, few mid/low ranked player and some people that doesn't main pure natue, like me on a smurf (I only made Legend with  pure nature).

Aye that's my point, there were not to many of us.  If it were so godly, I think you would have seen it a lot more.  Rarely did I even run into it,

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Aye that's my point, there were not to many of us.  If it were so godly, I think you would have seen it a lot more.  Rarely did I even run into it, 

It's because TS become useless in t2 unless you play the root game with spikeroot and people carry mortar tower and phase tower.

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Spamming 1 single unit should not be viable by any stretch of the imagination. But it is more than viable; it is so stong that the awesome complexity of nature t1 often is entirely replaced by a single card. It's not only about how strong and safe this is in t1, it is also about how many slots you can save to play all kinds of extra cards in t2 and t3. You can at least go even in t1 because of how hard it is to do anything offensive against treespirits and then win in t2 and t3 just because you can have all kinds of optional cards in your deck.

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Spamming 1 single unit should not be viable by any stretch of the imagination. But it is more than viable; it is so stong that the awesome complexity of nature t1 often is entirely replaced by a single card. It's not only about how strong and safe this is in t1, it is also about how many slots you can save to play all kinds of extra cards in t2 and t3. You can at least go even in t1 because of how hard it is to do anything offensive against treespirits and then win in t2 and t3 just because you can have all kinds of optional cards in your deck.

I would say this is the main reason Tree Spirit is so op, guess which "Heir of Isildur" never wins t1(but very rarely loses because of Tree Spirit Spam) or t2, just waits to t3 and then uses Brannoc with shadow t3(all them heals, cc and buffs with most op t3 unit, he has like 4-5 cards t3) in all high ranked games he ever won. And one more thing because this "Heir of Isildur" likes to say how he micros a lot and has 5 card t1, when u count t1 cards u should only count units, because units are only used in t1 and never after, while spells are used all game long, especially nature t1 spells, any other faction must have more t1 units to be viable and this alone gives unfair advantage in t2 and t3, because all your t1 units are just wasted slots in t2 or t3. For example when u play fire/nature u have many nature t1 spells in your deck for your t2 but u never use Scavenger, Thugs or Sunstriders after your t2 is up, etc. There are some units and situations when you do use t1 units after t2 but they are vary rare and im talking in general. Then there is 0 micro braindead turtle t1 play style. This card should be removed from the game or reworked completely.

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I would say this is the main reason Tree Spirit is so op, guess which "Heir of Isildur" never wins t1(but very rarely loses because of Tree Spirit Spam) or t2, just waits to t3 and then uses Brannoc with shadow t3(all them heals, cc and buffs with most op t3 unit, he has like 4-5 cards t3) in all high ranked games he ever won. And one more thing because this "Heir of Isildur" likes to say how he micros a lot and has 5 card t1, when u count t1 cards u should only count units, because units are only used in t1 and never after, while spells are used all game long, especially nature t1 spells, any other faction must have more t1 units to be viable and this alone gives unfair advantage in t2 and t3, because all your t1 units are just wasted slots in t2 or t3. For example when u play fire/nature u have many nature t1 spells in your deck for your t2 but u never use Scavenger, Thugs or Sunstriders after your t2 is up, etc. There are some units and situations when you do use t1 units after t2 but they are vary rare and im talking in general. Then there is 0 micro braindead turtle t1 play style. This card should be removed from the game or reworked completely.

Hey ! Nice to see you back, LostRipper ...i mean FrozenChronus ! I'm glad to see you settled that beef with the ,,Heir of Isildur'' ! :)

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