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The PvP-Balancing Wish/Whine-List


Nachtalb

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Dear Skylords :)

I opened this threat, because of the discussions concerning the PvP-Balance we allready have in this Forums. Because the discussions both deal with specific cards or specific ideas for balancing and i have the feeling that it is missleading at the moment (eg. talking about giving pure fire a Wareagle counter on the one hand and talking about OPness of (pure fire) Cliffdancing on the other hand). To get the balancing PvP discussion better organized i want to collect all (perceived) balancing issues in PvP here in this thread. The goal is to first make a list with all of those issues, then go down that list point for point to discuss it: Is this realy an issue, does it has to be changed, how could it be changed. As a conclusion we would have a list of REAL Issues that should be adressed (with ideas on how they could be adressed) and a list of only PERCEIVED Issues, that are no real ones and only come because people don't know how to play vs certain strategies or vs certain Decks.

Please as a first step only post (in short words) which Balancing Issues YOU think are in Battelforge that need to be adressed. I am gonna collect all of those in a List here in the first post. After some time of collecting we can discuss each issue and see if it realy is a thing that needs a fix, or if it's not. After we have a list of REAL Balancing Issues we can start to discuss those in seperate threads again.

I Hope this will lead to a more sophisticated Discussion about PvP balancing and will lead us in a direction so that we can start to balance or test balancing ideas when the server is up and running (maybe on a seperate testserver). I am gonna start that List with the issues that I think are problematic in BaFo PvP. I am gonna ad the name of the person who reports an issue in brackets behind it. Please be aware, that not everybody has to be your opinion, just post everything YOU THINK is a balancing Problem in PvP. You don't have to post any ideas how to solve this problem, lets first only collect, then discuss all the points.

 

Perceived Balancing Issues in PvP:

- Weakness of Bandit T2 and Shadow/Nature T2 (Nachtalb)

- Shadow/Frost T3 is overpowered (Nachtalb)

- Tree Spirits are problematic in Nature T1 (Nachtalb)

- lack of a cheap t2 m/m counter in pure nature (LagOps)

- phasetower is problematic against nature (and maybe frost?) t1 (LagOps)

- lack of reliable wareagle counters for pure fire (LagOps)

- bandits being underpowered vs frostsplash T2s (SunWu II.)

- cursewell being overpowered in frostsplash T3s (SunWu II.)

- shield building being overpowered (SunWu II.)

- war eagle + stormsinger(ability) being overpowered vs pure fire and fire/nature T2 (SunWu II.)

- firedancers over cliffs/walls being overpowered (SunWu II.)

- the (bug ab)use of netherwarp (green) casted on shadow mages being overpowered (SunWu II.)

- Brannoc's special ability being too strong (SunWu II.)

- pure nature being slightly underpowered vs certain m-unit attacks in early T2 (SunWu II.)

- lost grigori's special ability being slightly too strong (SunWu II.)

- phasetower and mortar being slightly too strong (SunWu II.)

- Grigori's taunt bug (Aragorn)

- Razorshard knockback delay bug (Aragorn)

- Nothern star bug (Aragorn)

- Juggernaut and Mo's ability CC-Bug (Aragorn)

- Brannoc : Ability too strong  (Aragorn)

- Nature t1 : Give them something to deal with structure (mortar and phase tower) (Aragorn)

- Nature t2 : Give them a M/M. (Aragorn)

- Additional energie (energy parasite, thugs, etc.): Bad Concept (Aragorn)

- Mountainer: Shield ability OP (Aragorn)

- Well curse OP in 2vs2 (Aragorn)

- Lajesh unbalanced : Too much wall and cliff potential on nearly every well. (Aragorn)

- Bandits UP (Aragorn)

- PvP is balanced/there should be no discussions at the forums at this point (Anonymous, xHighTech)

Edited by Nachtalb
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I HAVE ISSUES:

- bandits being underpowered vs frostsplash T2s

- cursewell being overpowered in frostsplash T3s

- shield building being overpowered

- war eagle + stormsinger(ability) being overpowered vs pure fire and fire/nature T2

- firedancers over cliffs/walls being overpowered

- the (bug ab)use of netherwarp (green) casted on shadow mages being overpowered

. Brannoc's special ability being too strong

- pure nature being slightly underpowered vs certain m-unit attacks in early T2

- lost grigori's special ability being slightly too strong

- phasetower and mortar being slightly too strong

Edited by SunWu II.
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- Comet Catcher  op with enlightement

- Nomads are op if they are in a group of 10+ other nomdas

- Spellblock wtf. I was able to block every enemy worldbreaker gun. Thats the key card against frost with fire !

- Void Maw 100 mana for an instant kill. should be nerfed

- Regrowth healed too much !

- Mana Wing !!! T1 air unit? Op with 5 other mana wings !!

- Death glider. 60 mana for air unit? wtf !

- Tunnel .. i dont think that i need to talk about tunnel. Crearly OP it should be much more expensive.

 

 

Did anyone of you played a ego shooter before?

There is a reason why they are different stats at Pistols, MP's, AR's.

Its like that you say "MP is up because i cant kill anyone in 1000km" or "AR is UP because MP is stronger in a closer range".

 

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please please please stop those discusiions about certain cards until we have a stable server its just pointless aslong there is no data to build on.

btw i dont understand why so many ppl complain about nature dont have acsess to an stron m/m counter or pure fires weakness vs wareagle.

the pure coulors iin battleforge use to have alot of favoured/unfavoured machups for a reason... i dont think it was ever intendet to give every possible machup a 50/50 winrate at all

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please please please stop those discusiions about certain cards until we have a stable server its just pointless aslong there is no data to build on.

btw i dont understand why so many ppl complain about nature dont have acsess to an stron m/m counter or pure fires weakness vs wareagle.

the pure coulors iin battleforge use to have alot of favoured/unfavoured machups for a reason... i dont think it was ever intendet to give every possible machup a 50/50 winrate at all

Yo. D'accord. This thread is not for discussions. It is just to collect the perceived imbalances. Kind of like a Whine-Thread where everybody can complain a bit. Actualy it is here to END all this discussions and to just collect, to get an overview what people think (or mostly feel) about balanceproblems. I think this will be helpfull to get a base of information for the balancing discussions that inescepably WILL be on there forums anyways. After we collected, we can discuss (in a new thread maybe) if anything of the collected is worth to discuss further, maybe when a possible Testserver is available. It would be nice if you just post a list here of what you feel should be discussed. Please don't get me wrong, i realy don't open this threat to encourage people to discuss all this (felt) imbalances, it is just here for everyone to get an overview of the different opinions in the comunity. If you think that there shoudl be no balancing or discussions about it in the forums (and i know that there are a lot of high ranked old PvPers who have that opinion) you can post this as well. Please don't comment on others opinions in this thread, just collect.

 

@xHighTech: Witziiig ;) Satirical Posts welcome.. We get your opinion. Und ich gebe dir auch insofern recht als dass viele Diskussionen im Forum was das angeht sinnfrei sind und man die am besten weglassen würde, ich hoffe halt mit diesem sammelthread das ganze erstmal auf einen thread reduzeren zu können, nicht das jetzt morgen der nächste nen thread über shield building aufmacht, der nächste einen über Banditen, etc etc etc.... ohne dass das Spiel überhaupt spielbar ist im moment... (Sorry for all not german speaking guys, sometimes it is easier to explain things in your mother tongue...)

Edited by Nachtalb
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Bug to fix with balancing impact :

-Grigori's taunt : It cancel ennemy attack every X seconde which is good vs XL because their attack are slow

-Razorshard knocback delay : The animation is before the real impact and damage, some people are lost and miss micro when they are not used to the exact timing. The card and animation says 3 seconde, but the game says 4 seconde. Choose between 3 or 4 but just make a decision this is painful for people not used to the exact timing.

-Nothern star : Ignore 50% Armor provided to any frozen unit. So instead to increase damage by 50% It actually increase by 300%. With this structure frozen unit should take 75% damage from 50% instead 150% from 50%. Not much people played it and most ignored this bug, this is the reason why nobody beside fremka played it.

-Neither warp : Double the healing when casted at the same place. But this one I'm agree to keep it. You loose the ability of teleportation but you gain more health regeneration to compasate and it does not make pure shadow too strong.

-Juggernaut and Mo's ability : CC them in the middle of their charge double the power of the ability.

-Spikerroot : The card say 100 damage up to 150, but they actually have to limit of damage when attack multiple target.

 

Card too strong :

Brannoc : Remove his ability (unlimited total damage is abused and the card overall doesn't rely on it, it's just a extra that make it op), slighly nerf his stat (Neutral card shouldn't be that strong) and make brannoc viable 1 per player or per team. I mean if both player use brannoc as XL counter in t3, the 1st brannoc is the winner.

Nature t1 : Give them something to deal with structure (mortar and phase tower)

Nature t2 : Give them a M/M.

Incoming energie : This idea is just bad. Accelerating the void pool rate is ok and have a part of risk, but getting extra energie from unit like Energie Parasite or Thug is something i think bad for the sake of the game.

Mountainer : This card is too efficient with a micro management while not countered by our own micro management. Remove his ability to gain shield while beeing cc like oink, freeze or knockback.

Well curse : Correct in 1v1 because of its higher risk but too good in 2v2. People generally have more energie and the 150 handicap only affect the user while the mate can still defend. So it's a sligh guaranted offense for sligh risk and over time you get too much advantage.

 

Unbalanced map :

Lajesh : Too much wall and cliff potential on nearly every well.

 

Faction :

Bandit : Just buff this faction. I'm not a bandit player so i can't point everything accurately but it definitively need a buff.

Edited by Aragorn
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I agree with most of these. The biggest one I disagree with is that war eagle is too strong vs fire-nature. I think those factions have one of the most even matchups.  For a long time, my best win rate with fire-nature was against pure frost (yes because it was the matchup I was most familiar with, but it I never noticed a problem at all).

I'd like to reiterate that I think brannoc's ability is too strong, and curse well is OP in 2v2 (and sometimes 1v1 with lost souls).

To add to the list:

Fire-nature t3: Lack of t3 siege (proposed fix: make mutating maniac cost less and have siege instead of XL counter)

Church of Negation is too strong with building repairs

Mountaineer is too strong in some already-powerful decks (proposed fix: make it cost 1 fire 1 frost orb so stonekin and lost souls can't use it)

Frenetic Assault probably doesn't get the publicity it deserves because it's not so widely used, but I have yet to find a reliable way to overcome it.

Razorshard should deal less damage to buildings (because right now it's a fire stalker with more health that can knock back M units) or cost more power

Alternate fix to juggernaut: make stampede have a cooldown so you can't pop him up from a rallying banner and immediately rush (of course fix the cc bug as well)

 

None of these I think are real problems though, and I think the game would be perfectly fine of none of the balancing changed.

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please please please stop those discusiions about certain cards until we have a stable server its just pointless aslong there is no data to build on.

btw i dont understand why so many ppl complain about nature dont have acsess to an stron m/m counter or pure fires weakness vs wareagle.

the pure coulors iin battleforge use to have alot of favoured/unfavoured machups for a reason... i dont think it was ever intendet to give every possible machup a 50/50 winrate at all

Why is it pointless to talk about cards ? It's the battleforge forum, you can stay away from the discussion if you think it's pointless but you can't stop us from discussing. It's our time that we are wasting and maybe someone might develope a good idea from time to time. Even if it is your opinion that i'm mistaken and all these threads are unneeded.

No data to build on ? Lots of players with years of experience registred here. I wonder what data you refer to - in former balancing disussions there was never any replay analysis or whatsoever, it was always talk from experience only.

The balancing debates in the old forum (partially led by players who's opinion even you two respect) mostly aimed for approaching a 50/50 winrate in every matchup, i think this idea was also always supported by the devs.

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@Eirias

Actually jugger has 15 seconde cooldown after spawn. They did it exactly because of rally banner.

Fire/nature has already a siege t3. Sunreaver. It's just not a all counter anymore like before his nerf (counter drone wtf). Twiligh has no weak and some advantaged t1-t2 matchup. And even GS is good too. They don't need a strong t3 like pure fire or lost soul while other faction suffer of more weakness.

Razorshard is in the same case of firedancer cliff. You actually need to get better at micro management (5 seconde to dodge, that's a lot) and well disposition choice instead of calling this card op.

Church of negation :  In small map, they are a pain.

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@Eirias

Actually jugger has 15 seconde cooldown after spawn. They did it exactly because of rally banner.

Fire/nature has already a siege t3. Sunreaver. It's just not a all counter anymore like before his nerf (counter drone wtf). Twiligh has no weak and some advantaged t1-t2 matchup. And even GS is good too. They don't need a strong t3 like pure fire or lost soul while other faction suffer of more weakness.

Razorshard is in the same case of firedancer cliff. You actually need to get better at micro management (5 seconde to dodge, that's a lot) and well disposition choice instead of calling this card op.

Church of negation :  In small map, they are a pain.

Ah, well 15 seconds isn't that much... maybe 25 or 30 seconds would be better?

Sunreaver does nothing against wells. GS kills them faster. If he goes back to normal against wells and stays the same against units I'd be fine, but the sunreaver nerf left a large hole in my deck. The problem with GS alone is that it fares very poorly against t2. NC or skyfire drake (even enforcer with wildfire) can kill them fairly easily. 

If you play on one of the massive maps where you're forced into having a large power t3, having only GS in the deck doesn't work because they are easy to kill en masse. If GS is the only t3 unit in the deck, there is no way to spam attackers to one base (for instance if shield building or church is built at another base).  Having a Large base nuker gives me more options, especially in t2 choices.

Wells can't dodge...the point isn't that razorshards need a nerf against units, they need a nerf against wells. The purpose of razorshards should be to counter firedancers, or allow long-ranged knockback--not allow stonekin a siege cliffing option. Why does the non-siege razorshard to as much damage as the siege firestalker? And you shouldn't buff firestalker, because then it would be like a fire dancer. 

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I'm suprised nobody mentioned that before, but at the time of original game Harvesters wrecked havoc! You take a shadow deck, rush your second orb and enemy is basically hopeless, forced to lose to you in economic way if he or she wants to stop this creature. There weren't much units able to counter Harvester due to his XL size, so this unit was an immortal thing, slowly butchering and stomping your armies. And believe me, there isn't any good way to interrupt your tactics. 

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first of all harvester is not that op look it this way that 1 creature costing 300 power so you rush tier 2 thats 150 power you need to wait 300 power doing nathing (spawning nathing) in orther to use him in pvp while enemy is creating tons of new tactics that can bring your harvester down and not only that when he do so you spen 300 power for nathing + while having him you need to have some other supp for him or your self cause he wont last long alone hes good but only if you have good advantage and know the time when to use him.

 

Edited by Xilian
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Nachtalb wanted everybody to just state the issues one thinks there are to get an overwiew, but now there are 3 posts of arguing and 2 oh-so-funny-troll posts already, also one post wich says we should all stop discussing because he doesn't like it, wich is ridiculous.

Edited by SunWu II.
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Bug to fix with balancing impact :

-Grigori's taunt : It cancel ennemy attack every X seconde which is good vs XL because their attack are slow

-Razorshard knocback delay : The animation is before the real impact and damage, some people are lost and miss micro when they are not used to the exact timing. The card and animation says 3 seconde, but the game says 4 seconde. Choose between 3 or 4 but just make a decision this is painful for people not used to the exact timing.

-Nothern star : Ignore 50% Armor provided to any frozen unit. So instead to increase damage by 50% It actually increase by 300%. With this structure frozen unit should take 75% damage from 50% instead 150% from 50%. Not much people played it and most ignored this bug, this is the reason why nobody beside fremka played it.

-Neither warp : Double the healing when casted at the same place. But this one I'm agree to keep it. You loose the ability of teleportation but you gain more health regeneration to compasate and it does not make pure shadow too strong.

-Juggernaut and Mo's ability : CC them in the middle of their charge double the power of the ability.

-Spikerroot : The card say 100 damage up to 150, but they actually have to limit of damage when attack multiple target.

 

Card too strong :

Brannoc : Remove his ability (unlimited total damage is abused and the card overall doesn't rely on it, it's just a extra that make it op), slighly nerf his stat (Neutral card shouldn't be that strong) and make brannoc viable 1 per player or per team. I mean if both player use brannoc as XL counter in t3, the 1st brannoc is the winner.

Nature t1 : Give them something to deal with structure (mortar and phase tower)

Nature t2 : Give them a M/M.

Incoming energie : This idea is just bad. Accelerating the void pool rate is ok and have a part of risk, but getting extra energie from unit like Energie Parasite or Thug is something i think bad for the sake of the game.

Mountainer : This card is too efficient with a micro management while not countered by our own micro management. Remove his ability to gain shield while beeing cc like oink, freeze or knockback.

Well curse : Correct in 1v1 because of its higher risk but too good in 2v2. People generally have more energie and the 150 handicap only affect the user while the mate can still defend. So it's a sligh guaranted offense for sligh risk and over time you get too much advantage.

 

Unbalanced map :

Lajesh : Too much wall and cliff potential on nearly every well.

 

Faction :

Bandit : Just buff this faction. I'm not a bandit player so i can't point everything accurately but it definitively need a buff.

I can fully agree on this, especially the bugs need fixing. 

A bug which i is kind of a big deal in certain matchups is that you can nasty a unit beeing swaped by ng or parasite swarm, killing the swaped unit after the enemy payed for the swap . This can be done reliably (VERY easy timing, works almost 100%). Also happens with green windhunter ability (harder to do because of the windup on the ability) and maybe even green disenchant (not sure about that one, maybe some fire-frost players know?).

Also purple disenchanting units, which are abusing the mageport glitch, removes the teleport imunity and prevents it from beeing applied resulting in units beeing teleported uncontrollably and unable to attack (does not need fixing if mageport glitch is fixed)

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Dear Skylords :)

I opened this threat, because of the discussions concerning the PvP-Balance we allready have in this Forums. Because the discussions both deal with specific cards or specific ideas for balancing and i have the feeling that it is missleading at the moment (eg. talking about giving pure fire a Wareagle counter on the one hand and talking about OPness of (pure fire) Cliffdancing on the other hand). To get the balancing PvP discussion better organized i want to collect all (perceived) balancing issues in PvP here in this thread. The goal is to first make a list with all of those issues, then go down that list point for point to discuss it: Is this realy an issue, does it has to be changed, how could it be changed. As a conclusion we would have a list of REAL Issues that should be adressed (with ideas on how they could be adressed) and a list of only PERCEIVED Issues, that are no real ones and only come because people don't know how to play vs certain strategies or vs certain Decks.

Please as a first step only post (in short words) which Balancing Issues YOU think are in Battelforge that need to be adressed. I am gonna collect all of those in a List here in the first post. After some time of collecting we can discuss each issue and see if it realy is a thing that needs a fix, or if it's not. After we have a list of REAL Balancing Issues we can start to discuss those in seperate threads again.

I Hope this will lead to a more sophisticated Discussion about PvP balancing and will lead us in a direction so that we can start to balance or test balancing ideas when the server is up and running (maybe on a seperate testserver). I am gonna start that List with the issues that I think are problematic in BaFo PvP. I am gonna ad the name of the person who reports an issue in brackets behind it. Please be aware, that not everybody has to be your opinion, just post everything YOU THINK is a balancing Problem in PvP. You don't have to post any ideas how to solve this problem, lets first only collect, then discuss all the points.

 

Perceived Balancing Issues in PvP:

- Weakness of Bandit T2 and Shadow/Nature T2 (Nachtalb)

- Shadow/Frost T3 is overpowered (Nachtalb)

- Tree Spirits are problematic in Nature T1 (Nachtalb)

- lack of a cheap t2 m/m counter in pure nature (LagOps)

- phasetower is problematic against nature (and maybe frost?) t1 (LagOps)

- lack of reliable wareagle counters for pure fire (LagOps)

- bandits being underpowered vs frostsplash T2s (SunWu II.)

- cursewell being overpowered in frostsplash T3s (SunWu II.)

- shield building being overpowered (SunWu II.)

- war eagle + stormsinger(ability) being overpowered vs pure fire and fire/nature T2 (SunWu II.)

- firedancers over cliffs/walls being overpowered (SunWu II.)

- the (bug ab)use of netherwarp (green) casted on shadow mages being overpowered (SunWu II.)

- Brannoc's special ability being too strong (SunWu II.)

- pure nature being slightly underpowered vs certain m-unit attacks in early T2 (SunWu II.)

- lost grigori's special ability being slightly too strong (SunWu II.)

- phasetower and mortar being slightly too strong (SunWu II.)

- Grigori's taunt bug (Aragorn)

- Razorshard knockback delay bug (Aragorn)

- Nothern star bug (Aragorn)

- Juggernaut and Mo's ability CC-Bug (Aragorn)

- Brannoc : Ability too strong  (Aragorn)

- Nature t1 : Give them something to deal with structure (mortar and phase tower) (Aragorn)

- Nature t2 : Give them a M/M. (Aragorn)

- Additional energie (energy parasite, thugs, etc.): Bad Concept (Aragorn)

- Mountainer: Shield ability OP (Aragorn)

- Well curse OP in 2vs2 (Aragorn)

- Lajesh unbalanced : Too much wall and cliff potential on nearly every well. (Aragorn)

- Bandits UP (Aragorn)

- PvP is balanced/there should be no discussions at the forums at this point (Anonymous, xHighTech)

I am all about balance issues, and I think a list such as this is a good idea, however trying to make balance decisions via open forum discussion will lead to bad things.  My thought has and always will be, once the game is up and going good, create a sub forum for a few select players who understand the "TOTALITY" of the game, every card, every interaction, and every counter item for that card.

 

However some of the things I see in this list are not issues at all but player perception.  I harped on this before the game shut down and I will harp on it when the game comes back.  Just because the "current" meta (back then) could not see its nose from its arse does not mean there is a problem.  An example.  How many pure nature players did you see using green dryad.  The answer, me and me alone.  That is one of the most versatile cards nature has, that really really filled a gap in nature.  This card made Giggori useless, storm singers useless and ohhhhh soooo much more. 

It is not the "Game Balance's" fault if you did not use the tools that Battleforge gave you.  It is a conscious choice that you made, by not putting that card or other protection cards in your deck.  That is the beauty of BF, you can only have 20 cards in your deck.  You have to choose what to put in there, no amount of "Balancing " will EVER be able to have 1 deck beat everything. 

Granted there were some bugs that were exploited IMHO.  But before the mob chooses to "balance" folks have to understand that there are a lot of cards that FIX the issues listed above by simply putting them in your deck. 

,

 

Edited by Darian DelFord
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I am all about balance issues, and I think a list such as this is a good idea, however trying to make balance decisions via open forum discussion will lead to bad things.  My thought has and always will be, once the game is up and going good, create a sub forum for a few select players who understand the "TOTALITY" of the game, every card, every interaction, and every counter item for that card.

This is probably the most efficient way to make balance desicions. A good amount of highranked players suggested this idea in the german forum aswell 3 years ago. 

Just because the "current" meta (back then) could not see its nose from its arse does not mean there is a problem.  An example.  How many pure nature players did you see using green dryad.  The answer, me and me alone.  That is one of the most versatile cards nature has, that really really filled a gap in nature.  This card made Giggori useless, storm singers useless and ohhhhh soooo much more.

 I played 100+ games with that green dryad and I think you overrate her. As long as your opponent plays around it she is just not worth 60 power & a deckslot at any stage of the game in pure nature (she is decent in shadow/nature tho).

Btt:

I don't think there were alot of balance issues at the end of Battleforge. Some bugs were pretty annoying (I guess Aragorn mentioned them already), but if you talk about "OP-cards" i would only suggest to nerf Phasetower & Treespirit, because they created serious issues since they were T1 cards and imbalance at that stage is super dangerous.

Phasetower:

If you face a phasetower-shadow T1 player on elyon for example the game is nearly over after 1 second as long as the shadow player know what he has to do. Another example: On Whazai you could attack the powerwells after 2 ports

Treespirit:

Treespirit was just unhealthy as a card, because you could just spam it against everyhing. Doesn't require micro and outtrades nearly every kind of unit composition. Defensive buildings & ice barrier spamming to block the damage were the only reliable counters for a card that did not require any kind of skill. They were btw even strong enough to compete against T2 Units.

Cliffdancer:

Made already a statement in the other thread (tl dr Cliffdancing is a unhealthy mechanic in this game)

 

-> 3 things, which weren't essential for the success of any deck, but created an insane advantage if you used them. Hm, I guess I talked enough about balancing now. Have a nice day ^-^ 

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This is probably the most efficient way to make balance desicions. A good amount of highranked players suggested this idea in the german forum aswell 3 years ago. 

 I played 100+ games with that green dryad and I think you overrate her. As long as your opponent plays around it she is just not worth 60 power & a deckslot at any stage of the game in pure nature (she is decent in shadow/nature tho).

Btt:

I don't think there were alot of balance issues at the end of Battleforge. Some bugs were pretty annoying (I guess Aragorn mentioned them already), but if you talk about "OP-cards" i would only suggest to nerf Phasetower & Treespirit, because they created serious issues since they were T1 cards and imbalance at that stage is super dangerous.

Phasetower:

If you face a phasetower-shadow T1 player on elyon for example the game is nearly over after 1 second as long as the shadow player know what he has to do. Another example: On Whazai you could attack the powerwells after 2 ports

Treespirit:

Treespirit was just unhealthy as a card, because you could just spam it against everyhing. Doesn't require micro and outtrades nearly every kind of unit composition. Defensive buildings & ice barrier spamming to block the damage were the only reliable counters for a card that did not require any kind of skill. They were btw even strong enough to compete against T2 Units.

Cliffdancer:

Made already a statement in the other thread (tl dr Cliffdancing is a unhealthy mechanic in this game)

 

-> 3 things, which weren't essential for the success of any deck, but created an insane advantage if you used them. Hm, I guess I talked enough about balancing now. Have a nice day ^-^ 

IMHO it is the most efficient way of balancing, do it 1 card at a time, once done then bring the proposed changes and get opinions.

Green Dryad is situational yes, and she can be played around yes.  But so can any other card like that.  The point is she filled a large gap in Nature or any nature splash that really helped.  Now worth the deck slot or not, that depends on each players play style.  But it does not mean to nerf other things.  Green dryad is only one example there are others.  But I see OP this  and Nerf that in the list up there, where there is no need, if you simply put certain cards in your hands.

That's the issue though, veteran players want the "normal" hands to be able to counter everything.  That is not how BF was designed.  1 universal deck can not and should not counter everything.  There are counters to most things up there, they are just not considered "worth a deck slot"  But they are there.

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I don't know about that ,,elite-player-council'' for the balancing decissions, i would have said great idea a few months ago. But in this forum, i've seen respected highranks having totally different opinions about balancing (wich means some of them are wrong from the start), i've yet to hear one highrank say something about bandits being UP (seems like they want to leave that faction unplayable...k), and also ego-tripping and other 12 year oldish behaviour wich doesn't help in any complex discussion. I wouldn't want those players to speak for myself and many others. That is if there aren't 5-10 more former highranks in the end, who are actually able to have a rational debate.

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i've seen respected highranks having totally different opinions about balancing (wich means some of them are wrong from the start), i've yet to hear one highrank say something about bandits being UP

What is your opinion of highrank? Fury ?

Im 95.843% sure that high ranks dont have different balancing wishes but you all cant understand that 99% of your balancing suggestions are useless because your not able to destroy situations/counter a better play and the fact should be its "OP".

That are 2 different shoes.

There still 3-5 cards that can be reworked a little bit. Thats for sure but all in one the game was balanced and there was no instant loss.

The better player was able to win every single match against a player under his niveau. (exept on wazhai & some stupid unsymmetrical rndm generated 'maps ;D)

Do you know the sentence "You'll understand it when you get older." ? Its clearly the same here w/ to get better.

- Tunnel vision -

 

MaranV is the best example that high rank player can give stupid balancing suggestions too. 

He never played outside of his Stonekin. Thats why he never understood some mechanics, stack at lower rank for the real high ranks in PvP and was not able to beat players with a demigod-prime rank.

 

@RadicalX What do you think about that splitted "skill" community downwards demigod?(Last 2 years) I think you know what i mean with the different niveau. Would be interesting.

greetz

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What is your opinion of highrank? Fury ?

Im 95.843% sure that high ranks dont have different balancing wishes but you all cant understand that 99% of your balancing suggestions are useless because your not able to destroy situations/counter a better play and the fact should be its "OP".

That are 2 different shoes.

There still 3-5 cards that can be reworked a little bit. Thats for sure but all in one the game was balanced and there was no instant loss.

The better player was able to win every single match against a player under his niveau. (exept on wazhai & some stupid unsymmetrical rndm generated 'maps ;D)

Do you know the sentence "You'll understand it when you get older." ? Its clearly the same here.

- Tunnel vision -

 

MaranV is the best example that high rank player can give stupid balancing suggestions too. 

But he never played outside of his Stonekin. Thats why he never understood some mechanics, stack at lower rank for the real high ranks in PvP and was not able to beat players with a demigod-prime rank.

 

@RadicalX I mean you cant really compare killroy and hiroo with other players in the last year of bf. What do you think about that splitted "skills" community downwards demigod?

,,What is your opinion of highrank? Fury ?'' Funny, but no, i would say sage and upwards

,,Im 95.843% sure that high ranks dont have different balancing wishes'' You mentioned two cards you wish to balance in another thread, Radical mentioned 3 different cards, Matmickback said there's nothing to balance, so there you go: 2 1/2 highranks, 3 different opinions, how can you still be sure ?

,,The better player was able to win every single match against a player under his niveau.'' Could be true if he didn't play bandits. Tell me, why is matmickback so proud of making rank 7 with a bandit twink, why are you so proud of beating Hirooo with a bandit deck. You have to admit these statements don't fit into your ,,every deck has the same overall strenght'' agenda. If there was balance it wouldn't be something special to be succesfull with bandits.

,,Do you know the sentence "You'll understand it when you get older." ?'' Sentences like those won't do you anything good in a discussion, maybe you''ll understand it when you get older ; )

,,MaranV is the best example that high rank player can give stupid balancing suggestions too.'' Please stop it with the namedropping, not only is it against the forum rules but it's also kind of a b****move as long as he isn't here to defend himself.

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- ok

- i was talking only about 2 cards that are little bit too strong in relation to NOT OP like every second card in this topic.. Do you think that was my clearly balancing opinion about battleforge pvp? i think radical is far from others the only player that you can take serious if you need a good advice & info.

If you take madmic srsly then you can take everything srsly here but i think you do it anyway so i dont care about rank stack if the game should come out.

- Because bandits is absolut underrated. Remember some years ago(around 6-7) where many players in top 20 played bandits sometimes or mainly. (No broken updates for bandits after everyone went inactive).

Im happy that no one played bandits in the last years because i dont know anyone exept hiroo who was able to play the T1 that you need. AND THAT DONT MEANS that bandit is UP because you need skill wtf. BF PvP = Ego Shooter Weapon balance system. But ye, i think here is the point where no one is thinking about but anyway i write it. High rank is not the same like it was - exept the first ranks.

-You'll understand it when you get older should mean-> youll understand it when you get better. And i think that sentence is enough to do a good thing for such threads.

 

I dont think that i stop it because there is no reason for, you advocate of truth.

 

I dont care about something like this because its like i said "a never ending story". 

 

-Even if the game is statistically balanced. You guys would find 100 tons of things that should be nerfed-

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