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The NPE (New Player Experience)


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1 hour ago, Eirias said:

My opinion as well. The tutorial map left out so much important stuff. Hopefully we'll be able to remedy this with youtube videos though.

I wonder if there could be some sort of quiz that new players get, maybe after a few weeks or a month of playing? Thinks like "What is voidpower" and "what are unit counters" and small bfp rewards for right answers.

Hmm I kinda like that. Small enough that it's worthwhile to do them but not big enough that it's worth multi-accounting for.

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4 hours ago, Eirias said:

My opinion as well. The tutorial map left out so much important stuff. Hopefully we'll be able to remedy this with youtube videos though.

I wonder if there could be some sort of quiz that new players get, maybe after a few weeks or a month of playing? Thinks like "What is voidpower" and "what are unit counters" and small bfp rewards for right answers.

Problem about the quiz is that you can find all the answers in the internet, so its kinda easy to get those answers - especially once there is someone who collected all of the questions, which i am sure will happen. Also how specific do you wanna make these questions? I feel like if you play for a few weeks you can at least understand on a basic level how most of the systems work in battleforge. And asking very specific questions really are not usefull as they are way to hard to answer for those guys. And i do not feel there are a lot of questions that i would consider on a level that is very relevant for those guys. Problem about those questions is that you do not need a lot of the information you will face. Like i got pretty much no clue how PVP matchups will go and yet i am totally fine as thats simply not relevant for me. This would only really make sense to me if you could choose categories on what you wanna get asked about and what depths you wanna get asked. F.e.:

Difficulty         Normal          Advanced          Expert

Category

PvP   

PvE

General

That would be only really for players that do wanna improve though as they can educate themselves in the category and depth that is relevant to them. If you just wanna play casually i think it is totally fine to just skip these kinda things as you will most likely not need those.

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While all of your thoughts are reasonable to really get people to know how to play, tutorial maps would be the best feature to teach mechanics.

Why?

Well, look at it this way. Youre a new player. Why exactly are you a new player? You want to have fun playing this game, maybe youre joining some of your friends who are already capable to teach you some things.

But this is the essential thought. New players want to play. Youre thinking about guides to teach players about PvE and PvP basics, but as a new player, you want to try something out yourself and play, not reading a book. Think about it. Did you ever read a game guide when it was bundled with the game? Like for Diablo? Or Witcher? Most of you will not have read it. Or rather will not have read it before playing for some time already. 

While i must admit that these games may be easier to understand due to their more widespread mechanics, when downloading Battleforge (Reborn), you want to play. 

I think that some community created maps could have the potential to bring joy to new players. Because if you wont have fun playing the game, you wont return.

If we could combine this with a mentoring programm, that should work out really well. If you remember the old forums, there were some experienced players willing to teach new ones for free on certain times. Maybe we could make an official newbie program with people willing to teach to make Battleforge reborn a thriving community?

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1 hour ago, Treim said:

Problem about the quiz is that you can find all the answers in the internet, so its kinda easy to get those answers - especially once there is someone who collected all of the questions, which i am sure will happen.

Not necessarily, I've played plenty of games with such a quiz feature and this problem is very easily solved: by adding a 30 sec (which I find a fair time) to answer, that's hardly enough time to look it up. And plenty to allow someone to think about it. I'm not saying this will solve the NPE problem, but it'll deffinitelly help a bit. Besides, from what I've seen, lots of people enjoy doing a BF quiz :P I do like your idea of having different categories and difficulties though. 

BTW, I also really like the idea of referencing the forum in hints of the day and etc that was mentioned waaaaaay earlier in this thread.

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1 hour ago, Treim said:

Problem about the quiz is that you can find all the answers in the internet, so its kinda easy to get those answers - especially once there is someone who collected all of the questions, which i am sure will happen. Also how specific do you wanna make these questions? I feel like if you play for a few weeks you can at least understand on a basic level how most of the systems work in battleforge. And asking very specific questions really are not usefull as they are way to hard to answer for those guys. And i do not feel there are a lot of questions that i would consider on a level that is very relevant for those guys. Problem about those questions is that you do not need a lot of the information you will face. Like i got pretty much no clue how PVP matchups will go and yet i am totally fine as thats simply not relevant for me. This would only really make sense to me if you could choose categories on what you wanna get asked about and what depths you wanna get asked. F.e.:

Difficulty         Normal          Advanced          Expert

Category

PvP   

PvE

General

That would be only really for players that do wanna improve though as they can educate themselves in the category and depth that is relevant to them. If you just wanna play casually i think it is totally fine to just skip these kinda things as you will most likely not need those.

Well, the GOAL is to make players look up the answers on the internet. It's supposed to be a teaching tool, not a reward for knowing stuff. When I was a new player, I grasped orbs and wells very quickly because those are essential to playing the game. It was over year before I figured out what the letters on the bottom of the card mean (thanks, @tbpeti :)). It's possible to play (albeit poorly) without understanding void power and size counters. The quiz would just be a simple way to re-introduce these ideas once the player has mastered basics of how to physically play the game.

 

Possible quiz questions (multiple choices answer) might include:

Q: You are playing nature, and a fire player rushes straight at you with nomads. What should you do?

A: Use roots to stop them and snipe with windweavers.

Q: You are even, but your opponent's well has 500 hp. You use 2 eruptions for 140 power, and your opponent rebuilds the well for 100 power. Who is winning now?

A: You, because you receive 126 void power back, and your opponent receives no power back.

Q: True or False: Dazed units are summoned with half health, so you must heal them.

A: False: Summoning sickness reduces the maximum HP bar of a unit (and thus a heal does nothing); if the unit is still alive after summoning sickness is over, the unit receives half its health back

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14 minutes ago, Eirias said:

Q: You are even, but your opponent's well has 500 hp. You use 2 eruptions for 140 power, and your opponent rebuilds the well for 100 power. Who is winning now?

A: You, because you receive 126 void power back, and your opponent receives no power back.

A: You lose, because you spend 140 power and now the opponent comes at you with two more units and destroys two of yours :P

 

But yeah, those questions should have rewards that people would have a direct reward that makes them feel like they accomplished something while they also aqquired new knowledge.

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Sheesh talk about necro :rolleyes:  I LIKE IT!!!!

 

As we get closer to beta, the NPE really needs to be thought out not only by the devs but by us veterans as well.  We are what is going to keep new folks here.  And if we wish the game to have longevity we need a way to keep those players. 

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Does anyone remember how informative the in-game help menu was? I was thinking we could incorporate the best guide we can find into the in-game help menu such that even complicated stuff (void power, bound power, counter, etc..) can be looked up in-game.

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29 minutes ago, Sylo said:

Does anyone remember how informative the in-game help menu was? I was thinking we could incorporate the best guide we can find into the in-game help menu such that even complicated stuff (void power, bound power, counter, etc..) can be looked up in-game.

Thats what i ment when i was talking about tutorial maps. Something like Moon telling you to kill your unit and then to look at the void power. I dont know how informative the actual tutorial was though, could be covered already. 

 

But if you read my post above, i agree. We should get some more in depth tutorial maps. 

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7 hours ago, Sopshield said:

A: You lose, because you spend 140 power and now the opponent comes at you with two more units and destroys two of yours :P

 

But yeah, those questions should have rewards that people would have a direct reward that makes them feel like they accomplished something while they also aqquired new knowledge.

Well . . . no. It depends on the position, but I'd say 8 times out of 10, you'd want to double erupt (in t2). Also, 140 power extra should not be enough to drop 2 wells (again, in t2. In t1, sure, but idk why you have 140 power in your void while you're in the middle of an attack. In the scenarios where you played well and are in a position to spend 140 power to double erupt, you win most of them).

 

But in the stated question, your opponent rebuilds the well, which puts him at an unquestionable disadvantage.

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1 minute ago, Eirias said:

Well . . . no. It depends on the position, but I'd say 8 times out of 10, you'd want to double erupt (in t2). Also, 140 power extra should not be enough to drop 2 wells (again, in t2. In t1, sure, but idk why you have 140 power in your void while you're in the middle of an attack. In the scenarios where you played well and are in a position to spend 140 power to double erupt, you win most of them).

 

But in the stated question, your opponent rebuilds the well, which puts him at an unquestionable disadvantage.

Yes, i know that its probably better if youre already in a stable matchup in t2, but my concern for this question was exactly what you wrote. In t1, it could be a terrible mistake and put you at a disadvantage. But thats like in every strategy game, there is (almost) no play that is always right.

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7 hours ago, Sopshield said:

Thats what i ment when i was talking about tutorial maps. Something like Moon telling you to kill your unit and then to look at the void power. I dont know how informative the actual tutorial was though, could be covered already. 

 

But if you read my post above, i agree. We should get some more in depth tutorial maps. 

I was thinking about the help menu in the forge, not an actual tutorial map.

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9 hours ago, Sylo said:

Does anyone remember how informative the in-game help menu was? I was thinking we could incorporate the best guide we can find into the in-game help menu such that even complicated stuff (void power, bound power, counter, etc..) can be looked up in-game.

Yes, that menu was very helpful. But I'm not sure how it would help teach gameplay mechanics, other than perhaps a more detailed explanation of what the card details mean.

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On 10 June 2016 at 5:34 AM, Sylo said:

. If there is a way to do this it would be through working on the ability wording (make them clearer and perhaps with less words by adding keywords).

 

Keywords could definitely help but a big problem with card descriptions is inconsistency. For example: Coldsnap freezes for 20 seconds and theres 10 seconds after units gets unfrozen where they are immune to freeze. This is stated on the card. However, on Curse of Oink and Ensnaring roots, which ALSO have 10 seconds immunity time after the effect wears off, the card simply says "immune for a while". Theres also many other instances of cards where descriptions are vague in the same way or omit vital information about values concerning time and damage.

eg: Wildfire doesnt have maximum range stated on card, nor how long the wildfire itself lasts.

 

I have a feeling this should be moved to general talk though

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16 hours ago, Sopshield said:

Thats what i ment when i was talking about tutorial maps. Something like Moon telling you to kill your unit and then to look at the void power. I dont know how informative the actual tutorial was though, could be covered already. 

 

But if you read my post above, i agree. We should get some more in depth tutorial maps. 

The actual tutorial map was not really much of any help. It basically only covered spawning, killing and commanding units a small introduction to the orb and well system with a small excursus on void power. A brief overview about units, buildings and spells. It was not really of much use tbh. While i think that it was okay to have it as a overview on the very basic game mechanics it was very vague in many respects. I dont think it covered the power systems very well as it was pretty vague on how much power you can expect to get. Also it didnt even cover all base factions or what playstyle you have to expect when having them, nor would it cover splash cards or affinities at all!

While i do not think it is necassery to go into to much detail in the very first experiences within the game some of those flaws are pretty big, especially the lack of explanation on the power system and not introducing the expected playstyles of the different factions is a big lack.

 

Imo we should maybe replace or add another small tutorial that introduces players to those very basics and help them finding the playstyle for their first deck.

I also would like to have a second so to say "advanced" tutorial map where things like decision making and the likes are covered. I think to explain these kind of things it requires players to have some knowledge about cards and general game knowledge. Also i would not force players to play this map - it would be optional.

 

While i had some time to think about the suggested quiz system i agree on that it is benefitial if players look up the answers as long as they are getting in contact with the matter. I got one thing i would like to have within the system: Do not focus to much on questions that are highly situational and please do have a balance about meta and non meta cards. I feel like if you those questions are a lot about cards that are considered "core" in higher level of play you would direct players into a certain direction on how to play and what cards to use which i think is something you want to avoid early on. The problem with this is that i dont think that there are a lot of cards where you can simply not make a lot of usefull questions about.

I would like to explain myself better but i but my english skillz dont allow me to clarify it. Just hoping you get what i mean in this case ♥

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Treim said:

The actual tutorial map was not really much of any help. It basically only covered spawning, killing and commanding units a small introduction to the orb and well system with a small excursus on void power. A brief overview about units, buildings and spells. It was not really of much use tbh. While i think that it was okay to have it as a overview on the very basic game mechanics it was very vague in many respects. I dont think it covered the power systems very well as it was pretty vague on how much power you can expect to get. Also it didnt even cover all base factions or what playstyle you have to expect when having them, nor would it cover splash cards or affinities at all!

While i do not think it is necassery to go into to much detail in the very first experiences within the game some of those flaws are pretty big, especially the lack of explanation on the power system and not introducing the expected playstyles of the different factions is a big lack.

Yeah, thats what i ment exactly. We need more tutorial maps, maybe some experienced map designer could create some for new players to get a feeling of being a skylord.

Maybe one could make a map for each basic faction? Introducing some untis which then need to do their job to achieve victory? (like, dont attack with a shaman)

The affinities are probably not covered due to the fact that they didnt even exist when the vanilla version of the game came out, along with the tutorial ;)

 

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55 minutes ago, Treim said:

I would like to explain myself better but i but my english skillz dont allow me to clarify it. Just hoping you get what i mean in this case

You've been on the forums a very long time and I've never heard you express this problem. On the other hand, I've never noticed your English being so bad. Someone else posting on your account?

 

But yeah, for the quiz I'm thinking just basic decision-making scenarios, and a few faction-specific questions to deal with common noob problems, like simple ways to not get destroyed by nomads/sunderer/frost mage.

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1 minute ago, Eirias said:

You've been on the forums a very long time and I've never heard you express this problem. On the other hand, I've never noticed your English being so bad. Someone else posting on your account?

 

But yeah, for the quiz I'm thinking just basic decision-making scenarios, and a few faction-specific questions to deal with common noob problems, like simple ways to not get destroyed by nomads/sunderer/frost mage.

uhh no its actually me, might also be that i am still drunk hehe.

I never mentioned it because the quiz topic is rather new and it just got to my mind with you creating those examples. Well if theres not a shit ton of questions anyways then i guess it is fine. What i was concerned about is that there would be a lot of questions about cards that are considered core that new players would get the feeling that they really need those cards in order to succeed and do not create their own unique decks. My concern was that due to a major mismatch of quests about  "good, standard" cards and "bad, non-standard" cards new players get heavily influenced in picking their cards. While that might not be the worst from a competitve point of view it seems not to be right influencing peoples creativity (don't know how else to call it).

Hope that clarifies what i was meaning.

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The idea of "advanced" tutorial is very appealing. Having a "beginner" tutorial just like the old BF and adding optional "intermediate" and "advanced" tutorials will be very helpful. Adding rewards for completing the optional tutorials should be enough incentive.

I'm not very enthusiastic about quizzes but I can see how they could help teach new players about different mechanics. I think the quizzes could be implemented into the tutorial maps. Is it possible to create a tutorial PvP map? because it will be very helpful to have PvP and PvE oriented tutorials. For the PvP tutorial you could have the player be asked what he should do at certain points in the game and explain why some of the answers are wrong or not optimal. We want players to experience the situation they have to think about and not just read a question and give an answer.

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  • 3 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

One thing I haven't seen mentioned but hopefully is fairly obvious from what I've seen of the community is exactly that, the community. As has been said, new players want to play, and doing that with existing players of the community who are willing to offer tips and knowledge is useful.

I remember running Crusade a lot and often with new players, they generally appreciated a bit of advice about power, counters and just strategies for the map. I think a huge part of it is keeping a good positive, friendly community. Seems like it should be a given though, with most people here being here because they love the game and want this project to thrive!

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21 hours ago, Archeon said:

As has been said, new players want to play, and doing that with existing players of the community who are willing to offer tips and knowledge is useful.

I remember running Crusade a lot and often with new players, they generally appreciated a bit of advice about power, counters and just strategies for the map. 

In my opinion, the staff should definitely do something with this idea. It might work way better than a plain tutorial, you know, the ones that get skipped all the time.

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  • 10 months later...

I'm actually having a hard time remembering many details about how the game worked and I was wondering if anyone has created a list of terminology to help payers like myself, who haven't played in so long they can't remember, or entirely new players better understand what more experienced players are talking about without needing to ask. 

 

P.S. Sorry if this is the wrong thread to put something like this; if it is feel free to delete/move/do whatever to this post 

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