RadicalX

knows nothing about hirooos grigori-fetish

was too slow

posted the 2155th reply in this thread

is older than me

doesn't use op-vileblood as his M counter :/

Overrates the importance of signatures

posts 14,95 times per day on avarage (off topic not included)

It is an intended feature which means it is not a bug. This doesn't imply that the certain strategy is balanced. Firedancer got a nerf since the beta, they did 350damage per hit (now it's 250). And the argument "EA did it for a reason" is not a good since they didn't have anyone in the team who was really knowlegeable about PvP in Battleforge (TBO didn't play PvP ), the balancing decisions were made based on community feedback (they even invited elendil once so he could explain them their own game - okay to be fair that was a really smart move, since he is probably the most knowledgeable player of all time in BF). Aside from that there were alot of cards/combos who were stronger than cliffdancer like voidstorm / fof balsa splicer / Deep one at release / 2v2 SoM aso. who had to get nerfs in the first place, which sometimes took alot of time because aside from TBO nobody from EA seemed to give a fuck about Battleforge... sadly. works vs walls -> this is why I consider walldancer as balanced doesn't work vs cliffs because you have to control such a wide area to defend, because the pure fire player doesn't require a power well to attack (Rallying banner). Shadow Nature has no cliffdancer counter ... not a single one. Shadow Frost doesn't have a counter either (yes, shadow frost can win against pure fire with L Unit counter-aggression, but this feels like the dota balancing "Lets make everything OP to provide counterplay" & I really dislike this idea) What's so funny about that? There are maps where nearly every position can get cliffed. In addition to that maps like Yshia or Whazai existed. You can "cliffdance" the main base from ridicilous map-spots on that maps Seriously, it was so painful to play on Yshia against pure fire ... you had to win the game with an immediate T1 push, because every fire player would go instant T2 on the side since cliffdancer reached the main base from their T2 orb. If you don't insta-rush against that the game was over even against inferior opponents as long as they had basic understanding about the game. This is apparently pretty interesting. This really sounds like a healthy nerf to pure fire, but I'm worried about the fact, RB isn't necessary on Yshia which is the most broken cliffdancer-map. Best regards, RadicalX

chose one of my favourite units as his profil picture

Brannoc was actually decent in Fire/Frost if you chose to play the timeless/silverwind/tremor T3. Since Fire Frost has no XL counter Brannoc would cover up a huge weakness (Tremor will still work as your main basenuke because Fire Frost doesn't have the best support for Brannoc). If you play Giant Slayer T3 he is not really strong. Aside from that I agree Brannoc was only really useful with good support, I played him pretty much only in Fire Nature, since i don't see a reason to run a XL in shadow nature, because LW/Unholy power were pretty useless here, pure Nature had Mo & Stonekin has on of the strongest XL nukes in T3.

Has a better internet connection than me

likes to blow up grigoris

The amount of players who use a card are no indicator for its strength. Fact is: purple Treespirit smashes the other nature player. If you spam dryads & shamans in a nature mirror you will lose to swiftclaw, spearman, shaman, dryad on every non generated map btw. I talk about Windweaver because they are part of a nature T1 like dryad, hurricane, root or heal. I don't think it is fair to call me unexperienced. I was actually the most succesful Treespirit player in 1vs1 (played 173 games, won 173, never saw an answer to Treespirit except towerspamming). But if you think you can beat me with treespirit i would like to see it when the game will be released. I would win a bo5 against any faction, even Frost, I'm pretty confident with that statement. @Darian DelFord The only relevant nature player I've played against was dekka

In Nature mirrors the purple treespirit is actually the stronger one since it ignores the damagereduction of Dryads and provides reliable nuke against m units -> 4 treespirits are enough to nuke the amazone which would justify a root to prevent the dodgemove (the result would be a 35power advantage for the TS-user and you provide safety for your Units so the 10s cd on the attack can't get abused in any way). Aside from that there is litereally nothing in Nature T1 that can kill a Treespirit. The Shaman DPS vs M Units was 29 (43,5 with splashdamage, if your units weren't splitted). Treespirit had a ridicilous amount of hp and it is just not possible to kill them with Shamans. Swiftclaw provides the damage, but is not ranged and has no way to get close to the treespirits. Spearmen were maybe the best Units to soak up damage, but there is still no way to deal the damage to kill anything. I agree skeleton warrior + nox trooper spam is the best unit composition against Treespirits, but they would still lose. In a mass spam the would get nuked by 6+ Treespirits, in split scenarios the nature player has still multiple cc's to deal with them (btw. if the nature player doesn't take a well in the early you wont be able to force split-scenarios on many maps). Aside from that you can still use windweavers against shadow who smash skeleton warriors (the double attack provides 96 dps) since they were good against nox troopers aswell because nox couldn't finish multiple winweavers with their attacks even if they had just 10hp. Life weaving is not situational. It is bad. Really bad. If you don't want to protect a unit which is about to kill a power well do not use life weaving in T1. A massive Magespam with Icebarriers & home soil is the only thing that is capable of neutralizing Treespirits, but you can still play defensive & destroy the ice barriers before they are finished if the frost player tries to attack so its not an autowin or something.

This is probably the most efficient way to make balance desicions. A good amount of highranked players suggested this idea in the german forum aswell 3 years ago. I played 100+ games with that green dryad and I think you overrate her. As long as your opponent plays around it she is just not worth 60 power & a deckslot at any stage of the game in pure nature (she is decent in shadow/nature tho). Btt: I don't think there were alot of balance issues at the end of Battleforge. Some bugs were pretty annoying (I guess Aragorn mentioned them already), but if you talk about "OP-cards" i would only suggest to nerf Phasetower & Treespirit, because they created serious issues since they were T1 cards and imbalance at that stage is super dangerous. Phasetower: If you face a phasetower-shadow T1 player on elyon for example the game is nearly over after 1 second as long as the shadow player know what he has to do. Another example: On Whazai you could attack the powerwells after 2 ports Treespirit: Treespirit was just unhealthy as a card, because you could just spam it against everyhing. Doesn't require micro and outtrades nearly every kind of unit composition. Defensive buildings & ice barrier spamming to block the damage were the only reliable counters for a card that did not require any kind of skill. They were btw even strong enough to compete against T2 Units. Cliffdancer: Made already a statement in the other thread (tl dr Cliffdancing is a unhealthy mechanic in this game) -> 3 things, which weren't essential for the success of any deck, but created an insane advantage if you used them. Hm, I guess I talked enough about balancing now. Have a nice day ^-^

Germany ^.^

mentioned the letter Gimel, but overlooked the letter Kappa

T1 is fine - Thugs not necessary, but still a strong card (helps you to deal with shadow T1 and is ok against fire t1 / Sunderer or Mortar would be other viable options). There is no need to play Frost T1, actually i would prefer to play with fire T1, because with frost T1 your success is influenced by map-rng and I don't like that fact. Still both options are actually decent. Lightblade is unnecessary, Firesworn is a decent L counter anyway. Rallying Banner is not that valuable in Fire-Frost, it just doesn't synergise very well with the other fire frost cards. Lyrish Knight should be used as long as u play frost T1. With Ice Barrier, homesoil & frost bite he is just way more useful compared to a standard fire frost deck with fire T1. If you intend to use your lancer / tremor / Timeless T3 dont take it out since it is your only XL counter (you should use ice barrier & homesoil in that case because otherwise you can't use you defensive units to attack afterwards which is pretty inefficient.) Rageclaws can be a decent addition to add some more pressure because the damage against power wells can get insane if you opponent doesn't deal with them fast. But I wouldn't suggest to play Rageclaws AND mountaineer because the have kinda the same task in your deck. Rageclaws are NOT good defensive units, because they are slow, melee & small. Your core M Counters are Skyfire drake & especially Stormsinger (This card is actually insane & made fire frost acutally viable after her buffs). Disenchant or Gladiatrix can be usefull to have one of those cards in your deck to deal with buffed L / XL Units, especially if you chose to play without lyrish knight. Besides that your Deck looks actually pretty good. And one last suggestion: Use at least 4 T3 cards in your deck, because otherwise you will have a hard time against some decks, especially lost souls. Actually there are alot of viable options in T3, just make sure that you have a way to deal with every kind of attack you could possibly encounter. Best Regards RadicalX

I would like to participate aswell. Sign me in for 1v1 & 2v2 ;-)

pretends to have a grey face

I would like to know why people say that Warrior's death is that strong. I mean in theory this cards just sounds like garbage and seems to work only against shadow/nature & pure nature. Every other deck has a decent counter: Frostsplashes have kobold trick/glacier and the damage steroid is not power efficient so its unlikely to get something done if you are not ahead anyways. Fire splashes can use disenchant, which works as a decent counter - at least the purple one is efficient (especially against a buff reliant deck). Pure shadow has knight of chaos with his ability (would recommend the blue one). The pure nature player tends to take not many wellcluster & often relies on cc to defend efficient, so warrior's death seems to work against that pretty damn well, but otherwise I dont see reason to pick up this card. That said I didn't play the card myself & don't have alot of experience with it. I'm just curious since many players seemed to think of warrior's death as a valueable card. Maybe there is some interaction I don't know or sth. like that.

Doesn't have 1000 posts yet

First of all nice work seems like you put alot of effort into this, but there are some things i would like to mention: Skeleton Warriors: Pretty much one of the most underrated T1-cards. I still wouldn't recommend them if you intend to play a small T1 (dreadcharger, forsaken, nox & nasty are essential for shadow T1), but skeleton warriors gave you a huge advantage in shadow mirrors as long as your opponent doesn't use them aswell. You had to deal 1650 effective damage to clear them with their tank ability (frenzy forsaken can deal only around 1080 damage in 20 seconds). In theory you could even 1v1 wrathblades which are supposed to counter s-units. There was no efficient way to clear them so what happens if you ignore them? The answer ist easy because skeleton warriors had 660hp which makes nasty surprise super dangerous. Aside from that you could use them to rush your opponent. He just needs to take 1 power well & you could rush him for sure even against phase tower since skeleton warriors are unkillable which means 30 seconds of free hits on the power well which results in 900 damage. Forsaken spam will do the rest as long as you split your units well. This is why i would recommend to play them at least once in your unit compostition against shadow. Nature T1 swift unit: I really like the fact that you point out amazon & werebeasts as viable options but it is important to note that swiftclaw is essential in nature mirrors* and against that nasty frostmagespam**. * (because it's the only unit that allows you to deal enough damage to kill anything of your opponent in the early game -> dyrad & shaman outsustain you otherwise) ** (you have to attack your opponent asap because home soil gets more and more efficent with more units on the board. If you can't intercept the mages early with swiftclaws you have to skip T1 even with treespirits since ice barriers can block the damage) Magma Hurler: short comment -> Unit was useless without cc because it was possible to dodge the attack by changing the movement direction during the attack animation. Had a 4 second delay between attacks so it was possible to kill him without losing a single hitpoint. Spearman: They were more than just good against shadow. Pretty essential card in a nature mirror -> just switch to M counter, it would deal alot of damage and was nearly unkillable itself. Embalmers Shrine: That rumor you mentioned was true btw. -> it was possible to gain your entire voidpower back immediatly which means as long as you play a spell/nukebased deck you get nearly unlimited power (was one of the strongest combos of all time, but got nerfed at some point). But there weren't many players who used this to full efficiency so it wasn't the most popular thing in pvp ... Rogan Kayle: Not sure if you mentioned this already (it's a long guide ^^), but Rogan Kayle was strong as a supportive XL counter since you could stack cc with his ability (Oink duration doesn't get reduced if you use it after Rogans ability). Used that in my shadow nature deck and it was pretty useful against harvester. Tunnel: Okay it wasn't the strongest card, but it was used sometimes. I remember Kyllbuster using Tunnel in a tournament against me to support his attacks and retreat (I think you could even dodge cc like coldsnap for example). Still not the most relevant card At the end I just want to thank you for all the work you put into this ^-^ Best regards, RadicalX

I have to disagree with your point of view, matmic. It was in no way funny to play with or against some certain strategies, because they were one-dimensional and didn't take a high amount of skill. A well balanced game is way more enjoyable compared to a game which is dependend on a limited amount of broken strategies. If you look at the balance-state of Battleforge at the end ... it wasn't too bad, honestly. I don't think i could create a big list with imbalanced cards/strategies, but cliffdancing was for sure one of the worst things in PvP. Sure you can make that argument "I can fuck my opponent in T1 and outplay him with my mechanics, gg easy", but it just doesn't work all the time in high elo. You are usually only able to take small advantages against really good players and if your opponent goes ahead and starts to use cliffdancer against you (you can't avoid this on some maps) this small lead doesn't matter at all and your opponent wins even when you were in theory the better player. This shouldn't exist and the majority of (high elo) players would agree, that in a healthy game the better player should be able to win against the less skilled opponent in a consistent way. Best regards RadicalX

[quote='Hirooo' pid='11445' dateline='1438355545'] The suggested try to get cliffs(the ones where dancers seem to need to walk around before firing) around the known spots would be enough to stop cliffdancing. Mortar seems like a lesser problem in my opinion. To prevent groundpresence with 50 powerlead (+the difficulty to get a building up with 50% speed) seems reasonable. Also there are a lot of buildings that lead to an advantage if you could get them builded up like termithill or iceshield tower but I would not consider this as hard to counter as firedancers. [/quote] Have to agree with this. If its possible to adjust the cliffs the problem should be solved.