Navarr

I was a bit confused at first cuz from how it looks I thought the "Best Time" would be possible with the shown deck. Also very interesting that the all time fastest Mo run is done without the all time most broken ability Are you sure about that? :OO

To add to this, many cards from the core edition have been nerfed very hard since then. Surge of Light, Tremor, Silverwind Lancer, Home Soil, Wildfire, etc - the list is pretty long ^^

Wow I really like where it's going. Good job! It's a valuable resource with lots of solid decks. But as far as I know some of the times stated there aren't possible with the deck shown. I'm just a PvP nub so correct me if I'm wrong but for example Mo 11:29 shouldn't be possible with that deck after the stampede nerf. Insane God 5:45 was probably done with Scythe Fiends, not Incubator. And btw Treasure Fleet is much easier with Enlight + Batariel.

@Kubik If you think that most people would move to that kind of server, we should ask the question why that is. Maybe it'd be a good idea to reduce the massive daily grind in favor of more cards and variety So it's more accessible for newcomers and players that don't have the time to play daily as well as PvP players etc etc. Edit: Also I don't think nobody cared about missions or pvp there. I remember playing a lot of PvP and speedruns with perfect decks which was very beautiful.

In this thread Kubik stated otherwise.

Already being discussed here.

You seem to be pretty new here

By void control I mean something like Cultist Master + Furnace of Flesh, Shrine of Memory, Shrine of War, which gives you void back faster.

It's cheaper than normal t4 because with void control you get most of the 140 activation power back and only use 250 bound power for the 4th orb instead of 300.

How can you say I'm incorrect if you didn't see the replays? Also I've been following this thread and now where you bring it up I wanna say that I don't like the attitude of both these teams. In my opinion we should work together to make the absolute perfect fastest times for every map. ps: Could also be 2 players getting fed by 1 player each. Still same thing just kinda mirrored. Mark of the Keeper is one of the oldest cards for these situations too so maybe it's getting used too. But whatever, I'm more of a PvP player. There are people that can guess it better, I'm just saying these tactics have been around. We know them. So we should make decks public for the newer players to get into speedrunning (and probably expert maps in general) easier. ps2: And I'm repeating myself when I say Guns of Lyr and MAYBE Oracle are kind of the only maps left where the meta tactic isn't 100% publicly known.

No I didn't see it because it's not public. So you could hypothetically say I never will. Why? Well, according to your logic: They need to get the fastest possible time (frame perfect) first, which will probably take several thousand runs because of server latency and all that, because why would they share the replay before making sure nobody can use their totally new tactic to get an even faster time. BUT, even without seeing the replay I don't think it would surprise me by a lot. We'd see 3 players feeding into a decomposer. Some Rifle cultists or whatever clearing the houses to trigger the final wave which will be defended by some huge anti air damage like more rifle cultists, wbg or something like that. As there are 3 more players you would think there is a lot of room for variety, but as most or (more likely) all of them stay t1, I don't think I have to elaborate more on this. Even a PvP player without a lot of speedrun experience can easily use the same old tactic that has been developed by the community - if he remembers it ;). The problem here is getting a good time, which is not only the direct result of lots of runs and practise but also comes from remembering the correct move/build order and stuff like exact well count etc for maximum efficiency. SO, we will see if they changed more than a few cards. I very much don't believe it. Also, another thing I want to add to this discussion when we think about deck variety. Don't you think public decks would GREATLY enhance it in the long run because there would be a reason to play pure decks or other weird strategies and still get good times with them to impress others? It has always been that way, so why remove this component?

"If someone figures out better strategy" = change a few cards from the existing decks. Please remember we didn't have a balance patch for a looong time. "players might be not capable" - you might have a point here. I will think about that. I didn't compare anything to dark souls speedruns, I was just referring to the feeling of uncertainty some players want to maintain. The term "correct" explains itself pretty well as there is a limited amount of possibilities on deck and movement so you can definetly play "correctly" by using the best possible cards with (very close to) perfect micro.

See, the thing is: This is probably the last exception of where a tactic isn't publicly known when we talk about multiplayer PvE maps. And even the tactic for this run is based off very very old community tactics (correct me if I'm wrong but I'm like 99% certain). So, considering that the tactic for multiplayer maps is almost the same (decomposer into instant amii t4 and/or enlightenment) for every map, I'm still looking forward to see public decks, if not even public replays for a public rank in a public ladder. But that's just my perception of how a community-friendly transparent ladder should work. People that are newer and like to figure out the decks on their own can do so by not looking at the publicly availablle data (which is what lots of us do anyways, like for example when we force ourselves not to look at the wikia during our first Dark Souls run to keep the tension up), while not restraining new and old players that just want to pick up the correct deck and practise. Edit: Yes, there is pretty decent information on youtube. No, I don't think beginning with speedrunning should start with 5 hours of youtube and replay search. Also most of this information is outdated and will potentially continue wasting lots of time.

I can see your point when we talk about publicly showing the replays, because you've put a lot of time and effort into it. But why not show the deck to at least give a hint in the right direction? ps: What I find really strange is that the secretism about PvE strategies is so overly exaggerated while in PvP where the direct competition is much more relevant, people are much more willing to tell their secrets and dirty tricks. Maybe that's because it's harder to hide tactics from the public there, but I rather think people see the benefits of a healthy competition. Nobody wants to be rank 1 on a ladder of noobs not quite as knowledgeable players.

Could you elaborate

So in your opinion it's better for the community when only a handful players know the maps and compete with each other? I think most speedrun tactics have been developed by the community over the years and now it's all about who has the replays and remembers the stuff best. So it would be only fair to not exclude 99% of the players from playing speedruns because they needed to put too much time into researching etc. Imho rankings should be about skill too, not only knowledge.

In the old days you could see the deck the run was accomplished with. I guess seeing this feature back again would help the competition quite a lot.

So sad now :p

Ha why do you even mention that run xD

Brannoc is by far the best XL choice for SN in most matchups. For beginners I recommend using burrowers. Edit: Deepcoil is really stronk with good micro but you kinda need LW to make it reliable so I agree with the common opinion that it's generally a bad pick. It will always be the kind of surprise early t3 finisher thingy :p

- Knowledge - ummm.. Battleforge Cards

There are a LOT of nice people in this community! Maybe you were just unlucky. Almost everyone I know and play with is really stupidly noob-friendly. There are some people that demand certain deck levels from their allies but these people tend to play really bad and want to get carried so yeah.. In PvE you can literally complete every map pretty easily with decklevel 20 if you don't use only trash cards. PvP on the other hand requires you to have a shit ton of upgrades and good cards for serious play, but there are still a lot of low level players to practise with.

For that matter CoN players use to have 2 churches relatively close to each other so they can split up enemy units with their 2 nether warps. Can't really break through on even power. So as a non-fire splash I'd recommend to take the free win on time and use the 15-20 remaining minutes to flame the church player and laugh at him

Some of the buildings you mentioned and then Area Ice Shield + both affinities of Ice Age for infinite shields. Very strong with very few visual FX so it doesn't feel like you're helping too much

This is pretty much the only good idea I've read in this thread. Instead of making mortar or phase 75+ power we could just remove them from the game. Mine is crap in 1v1 and will always be. And concerning Frost, I don't see the only real problem discussed, which is fmage spam vs nature which makes the latter unplayable. All in all, it's really hard to talk about balance when there is no ranked system where we could see which tactics REALLY lack counterplay, because when i for example see a phase tower spammer in ranked, I will take the free win with fire (or at least make him waste 1 deckslot). Predicting enemy tactics and countering them in advance is a thing I dont see taken into consideration at all in all these balance discussions which kinda make me lose hope on getting to a good result. It's very obvious that Phase Tower needs a nerf, but rather than removing it from the game I'd rather see some minor buffs for some counterplay possibilites, TOO. Also one point I want to bring up that isn't taken into consideration a lot is that 2v2 and 1v1 differ quite a lot. For example nature + shadow t1 is absolutely broken, still nobody demands a nerf for SoL or Dryad, because nature t1 is so underwhelming in 1v1 due to shadow and frost matchup. So as you can see, this is a rather fragile and really complex system, where it is very much more likely to make it even worse by just nerfing everything we don't like into the ground. Without an efficient mortar and phase there would only be nox/dryad spam in 2v2. I think I could go on forever complaining in my mediocre english about the too simplified way of thinking that is propagated by some people here. But let's cut it here and see how the discussion turns out. Sorry if I stepped on too many feet :p Edit: Last point I want to mention is that Frost and Nature are very map depandent whereas Fire and Shadow don't have this disadvantage. This is probably where we should start tackling this issue. Edit2 bc I cant help myself: Shadow is also the easiest deck to play which obviously make it seem stronger from noob perspective. Similar thing for fire